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• 4[00:01:21] <sney> if it's a vm, bounce it from the hypervisor. if it's not, get someone to go flip a switch
• 5[00:01:39] <Jasperw> yeah I think i'm going to have to do remote hands
• 6[00:02:22] <Jasperw> was wondering if there was either a) a staticly linked su or sudo somewhere, or b) a way for adm to do e.g. echo 1 > /sys/something/something/reboot or somesuch
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• 8[00:03:03] <sney> if there is, they'd both be something you would have to set up in advance
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• 10[00:05:22] <aaro> what about 'systemctl reboot'
• 11[00:05:26] <derpadmin> Jasperw, wow, your system is crapped man
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• 13[00:05:41] <derpadmin> what "file /usr/bin/mount"
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• 16[00:06:39] <Jasperw> zsh: Input/output error: file
• 17[00:07:44] <Jasperw> systemctl reboot gives vairous lines about "Connection timed out" when talking to things
• 18[00:08:36] <derpadmin> Input/Output error are usually a faulty device
• 19[00:08:42] <derpadmin> more than a filesystem thing
• 20[00:09:00] <derpadmin> the disk is sata?
• 21[00:09:34] <Jasperw> it's an mdraid of sata disks with lvm on top
• 22[00:09:39] <derpadmin> "dmesg" givevs what
• 23[00:09:47] <Jasperw> and another pair in a zfs mirror
• 24[00:09:57] <Jasperw> zsh: Input/output error: dmesg
• 25[00:10:09] <Jasperw> (but I won't be able to run it anyway cos of not being root)
• 26[00:10:24] <derpadmin> dmesg does not require root
• 27[00:10:30] <Jasperw> The machine is a Xen host as well
• 28[00:10:34] <derpadmin> oh, it does
• 29[00:13:15] <jhutchins> Jasperw: How about halt or reboot?
• 30[00:13:50] <jhutchins> Jasperw: Why don't you have root?
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• 33[00:17:05] <Jasperw> since sudo and su don't work
• 34[00:17:21] <Jasperw> they both segfault
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• 37[00:19:12] <derpadmin> I'm not sure how to get out of this one Jasperw
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• 41[00:21:35] <petn-randall> Jasperw: Why do you want to reboot it? I'm 100% sure if it's broken like that that it won't come up again.
• 42[00:22:01] <petn-randall> Jasperw: What steps did you take that lead up to the situation that the machine segfaults on every command?
• 43[00:22:14] <Jasperw> nothing it just did it
• 44[00:22:32] <Jasperw> I guess a disk or a connection to a disk has gone odd
• 45[00:22:46] <petn-randall> Jasperw: Did you check the logs?
• 46[00:23:06] <petn-randall> Jasperw: You might be able to run "dmesg" to get any kernel output.
• 47[00:23:16] <Jasperw> cat: daemon.log: Input/output error
• 48[00:23:22] <Jasperw> can't run dmesg as non-root user
• 49[00:23:33] <sney> journalctl -k, then
• 50[00:23:36] <petn-randall> Oh right, that sucks.
• 51[00:23:59] <sney> rebooting will tell you for sure if this system is persistently broken, or if something leaked and filled all of your ram
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• 53[00:25:52] <Jasperw> zsh: Input/output error: journalctl
• 54[00:26:06] <petn-randall> sney: If a process has memory leaks the OOM would just kill it. You wouldn't get segfaults like that. It's either the root disk is gone or the RAM has bitflips.
• 55[00:26:15] <petn-randall> At least those are my current guesses.
• 56[00:26:40] <Jasperw> my guess is root has mostly gone, and something importand isn't in the fs cache that stops some things running
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• 58[00:26:53] <sney> it's been a long time since I've seen it irl, but I'm *pretty sure* that I've had a system catastrophically run out out of memory and behave like this at least once
• 59[00:26:53] <Jasperw> things that are in cache work, but it can't hit the disk for new stuff
• 60[00:27:22] <Jasperw> IF it was some kernel data structure then aiui the oom killer wouldn't hit it
• 61[00:27:31] <sney> anyway: it's pretty useless as is, and "will this boot?" is an important troubleshooting step
• 62[00:27:35] <petn-randall> Jasperw: You could run `echo b > /procy/sysrqtrigger`, but - surprise! - you need root for that. So I'd trigger a hard reset remotely via your provider.
• 63[00:28:33] <petn-randall> `echo b > /proc/sysrq-trigger` ... so many typos. :S
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• 76[00:41:11] <jelly> Jasperw, see if you can see how the disk fell off the bus in dmesg
• 77[00:41:51] <jelly> <Jasperw> can't run dmesg as non-root user # ahahaha, "security" feature
• 78[00:43:36] <Jasperw> The box has freaked out before I really need to replace it
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• 80[00:44:13] <jelly> if it boots next time, keep a root shell inside screen or tmux
• 81[00:44:33] <Jasperw> zsh: Input/output error: tmux
• 82[00:44:34] <Jasperw> :/
• 83[00:44:47] <Jasperw> I think I need busybox-static on it
• 84[00:45:01] <jelly> next time.
• 85[00:45:08] <Jasperw> iirc some distro's have a staticly linked /rescue or something
• 86[00:45:45] <sney> some kind of OOB/LOM board might be a good idea in the future too
• 87[00:45:46] <jelly> you said you can't sudo or su, so unless you got a handy local root exploit that works without a disk
• 88[00:45:53] <Jasperw> The kernel is 4.9.0-14-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.9.246-2 (2020-12-17) x86_64 GNU/Linux
• 89[00:45:59] <Jasperw> Dunno if there is a vuln for that
• 90[00:46:08] <Jasperw> I may be able to ssh things to it
• 91[00:46:16] <Jasperw> and /run etc should still be writable
• 92[00:46:43] <Jasperw> wierd, /tmp is read-only
• 93[00:47:25] <jelly> /tmp is not tmpfs by default on debian
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• 95[00:52:50] <jhutchins> Does your provider have a backup plan?
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• 103[00:58:43] <Jasperw> I've got remote hands to reboot it
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• 105[00:59:08] <Jasperw> and it's back
• 106[00:59:11] <Jasperw> and I can sudo
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• 137[01:27:44] <jhutchins> Jasperw: As long as it works. Probably do an fsck, and see about that baclup plan.
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• 146[01:37:47] <Jasperw> it all seems to be fine, nothing in smartlogs, nothing in /var/log, it stoped around 19:41
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• 161[02:03:06] <DarkTrick> Hello, where do I find the source repo for this package?
• 162[02:03:07] <DarkTrick> replaced-url
• 163[02:05:14] <sney> you can browse the source package at sources.debian.org but it doesn't look like that package has a vcs, at least they haven't listed it. you could email the maintainer and ask.
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• 191[02:28:54] <Souler> Hello. Somebody is here? I need help with audio interface under thunderbolt/firewire. Please help!!!
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• 196[02:33:35] <sney> !ask
• 197[02:33:36] <dpkg> If you have a question, just ask! For example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get an answer try a few hours later or on replaced-url
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• 331[05:09:52] <hanasaki> which xorg server package is needed to run a ryzen 3700u ?
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• 431[08:19:33] <tzf> i got my vbox issue fixed by this : replaced-url
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• 477[09:39:11] <ChiLLabiS> Dee-bian or Debb Ian(names). How do you say it in english?
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• 479[09:40:10] <BillyZane> i say it the latter
• 480[09:41:16] <ChiLLabiS> Okay
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• 489[10:01:16] <rendar> why apt-get is so stupid that if do `apt-get purge cups` and `apt-get autoremove` and `clean`, at the next update+upgrade it will reinstall cups and its dependencies?!
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• 497[10:09:17] <EdePopede> rendar: just an idea, do you use recommendations/suggestions?
• 498[10:09:35] <rendar> i don't think so, how can i check that?
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• 500[10:10:29] <rendar> replaced-url
• 501[10:10:38] <rendar> i also get this with `dpkg --set-selections <<< 'cups hold'`
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• 503[10:10:41] <rendar> unbelievable!
• 504[10:10:46] <rendar> wtf is this?!
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• 508[10:11:33] <jolt> rendar: did you do "apt update" first?
• 509[10:11:38] <rendar> yes!
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• 511[10:12:30] <rendar> jolt: replaced-url
• 512[10:12:51] <rendar> the "1 package can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see it.
• 513[10:12:57] <rendar> refers to cups, that i have just uninstalled
• 514[10:13:00] <rendar> wtf is going on?!
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• 518[10:14:22] <jolt> rendar: Has to be something with rasbian, it works on my intel system, but not on my rpi
• 519[10:15:33] <rendar> how come? shoulnd't apt-get system be the same?
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• 521[10:15:57] <EdePopede> distros may do whatever they want
• 522[10:16:27] <jolt> I don't know the answer, but maybe there is something different on the architecture and how the packages are done for that.
• 523[10:16:31] <EdePopede> i can't even parse this one > dpkg: warning: package not in status nor available database at line 1: cups
• 524[10:16:48] <jolt> Rasbian is a fork of Debian, not debian itself
• 525[10:17:03] <n4dir> aptitude why cups
• 526[10:17:22] <jolt> rendar: so it's not like it is debian proper. And We cannot know what the rasbian team are thinking
• 527[10:18:36] <rendar> EdePopede: how can i check the suggestions you were talking about?
• 528[10:19:18] <EdePopede> rendar: either you have a setting in some config file or you're using a cli option (which i don't think too many do regularly)
• 529[10:19:40] <EdePopede> rendar: usually i just simulate an install and check for recommendations in the list of packages to get installed
• 530[10:19:51] <rendar> how can i simulate that?
• 531[10:19:57] <EdePopede> man apt-get is pretty... meh
• 532[10:20:01] <EdePopede> add -s
• 533[10:20:24] <n4dir> some config file being either /etc/apt/apt.conf or /etc/apt/apt.preferences or the according directories: apt.conf.d preferences.d
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• 535[10:20:37] <EdePopede> --no-install-recommends --- Do not consider recommended packages as a dependency for installing. Configuration Item: APT::Install-Recommends.
• 536[10:20:42] <n4dir> if i recall correct debian does install recommends, but not suggests
• 537[10:20:45] *** Joins: eb0t_ (~eblip@replaced-ip)
• 538[10:20:48] <EdePopede> but where? there are a couple of config files listed at the end
• 539[10:21:07] <EdePopede> /etc/apt/apt.conf --- APT configuration file. Configuration Item: Dir::Etc::Main.
• 540[10:21:26] <EdePopede> so if this is MAIN, where does apt read this setting?
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• 544[10:22:55] <EdePopede> and then there's also apt/preferences. well.
• 545[10:23:40] <EdePopede> $ apt-config dump
• 546[10:24:29] <EdePopede> APT::Install-Recommends "1";
• 547[10:24:29] <EdePopede> APT::Install-Suggests "0";
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• 549[10:24:43] <EdePopede> *should* be the default, can't remember having changed it
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• 551[10:25:25] <n4dir> yup, same here
• 552[10:25:53] <n4dir> many based-on debian distros i ran in change that though
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• 554[10:26:19] <n4dir> well "many". that is a bit of a stretch. I ran in it
• 555[10:26:52] <n4dir> anyway, if i understood right he uses raspian. I just checked and sure got no cups installed on mine
• 556[10:27:14] <EdePopede> is cups still the thing?
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• 559[10:28:27] <n4dir> no clue, but all kind of *cups* stuff is a dependency of all kind of software.
• 560[10:29:12] <n4dir> not sure if it is worth the trouble.
• 561[10:29:35] *** Joins: martinus__ (~martin@replaced-ip)
• 562[10:29:52] <EdePopede> had to fiddle around with a HP DJ 500c long ago. 3 or so different drivers, each of them has its shortcommings :|
• 563[10:30:35] <n4dir> i decided very very long time ago that for the 4 times i gotta print something i might also go to the local library. :-)
• 564[10:30:48] <n4dir> 4 times per year, duh
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• 566[10:31:15] <rendar> so i can just have to run `apt-get --no-install-recommends update` ?
• 567[10:31:32] <n4dir> rendar: nah, you do that when you install a package. Usually.
• 568[10:31:58] <rendar> n4dir: but i'm not installing ANY package! i have done apt-get purge cups + autoremove
• 569[10:32:01] <n4dir> the problem not getting rid of a given package often is related to "metapackages" or it being installed as a recomendd of another
• 570[10:32:07] <rendar> then when i do apt-get update+upgrade it installs again cups
• 571[10:32:13] <rendar> i'm not installing anything here
• 572[10:32:15] <n4dir> Yeah, i understood that, and i for one don't think recommends is the problem here
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• 574[10:32:33] <rendar> and what is the problem in your opinion?
• 575[10:32:54] <n4dir> aptitude is probably not installed, but "aptitude why <packagename>" can help in such situations (and often does not)
• 576[10:33:30] <n4dir> i guess it is a dependency of something. Or a recommends, but you first need to figure out why it is installed
• 577[10:33:59] <n4dir> did you run "apt-get autoremove -s " to check if removing cups first will get rid of other packages?
• 578[10:34:14] <EdePopede> it should yell at uninstall if it's dependency, i'd place my bet on rec
• 579[10:34:29] <n4dir> all i say is: poke around a bit. Yes, this can be annoying. Hence i said: not sure if worth the trouble
• 580[10:34:59] <n4dir> cause in 3 weeks you install something different, and it might try to get in again.
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• 582[10:35:20] <EdePopede> or debtree, 1 level deep, for each package installed. automatized. then check for cups in the files.
• 583[10:35:27] <n4dir> i for one usually consider such to be worse the trouble, but that is me
• 584[10:35:37] <rendar> but why i can't put cups to "hold" ?
• 585[10:35:48] <rendar> if that would work, problem is solved
• 586[10:36:00] <n4dir> hold means: doesn't get upgraded. doesn't get installed is pinning
• 587[10:36:02] <n4dir> i think
• 588[10:36:09] <n4dir> All this is voodoo to someone like me
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• 590[10:37:47] <rendar> voodoo? but those are very simple and common operations!
• 591[10:38:01] <n4dir> then why you have to ask?
• 592[10:38:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1166
• 593[10:38:54] <rendar> because i don't know those commands, but people here are supposed to know!
• 594[10:39:02] *** Joins: unluckyshrubbery (~unluckysh@replaced-ip)
• 595[10:39:24] <n4dir> and did you run the commands given yet? And what did they give?
• 596[10:39:56] <rendar> i have been given a flag: --no-install-recommends
• 597[10:40:14] <rendar> but i can't try this, since it works with *installing* packages, as you said
• 598[10:40:20] <rendar> but i'm upgrading here
• 599[10:40:27] *** Joins: bertbob (~bertbob@replaced-ip)
• 600[10:40:34] <n4dir> aptitude why cups
• 601[10:40:57] <n4dir> !bat
• 602[10:40:57] <dpkg> [Basic Apt* Troubleshooting]. To diagnose your problem, we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information: 1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1 pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem, and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use replaced-url
• 603[10:41:31] <rendar> -bash: aptitude: command not found
• 604[10:42:07] <n4dir> i already explained that you might have to install aptitude first
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• 607[10:44:04] <rendar> # aptitude why cups
• 608[10:44:04] <rendar> i realvnc-vnc-server Recommends cups
• 609[10:44:16] <rendar> unbelievable!
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• 611[10:44:44] <rendar> can i upgrade the system without these recommends by other packages?
• 612[10:45:44] <ratrace> you can try putting APT::Install-Recommends "0"; into a file under /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/
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• 615[10:47:20] <f8e4> hi, i need scan program that usally is default, but i cannot find, please name two you use so i test?
• 616[10:47:20] <EdePopede> <rendar> because i don't know those commands, but people here are supposed to know! <-- WE ALL ARE PEOPLE!
• 617[10:47:43] *** Quits: martinus__ (~martin@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
• 618[10:47:57] <ratrace> f8e4: a what? scan like document scanning? to use a scanner? like xsane?
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• 620[10:48:18] <f8e4> xsane i have, but there was very simple gui thing that was default installed, but how i miss it
• 621[10:48:24] <f8e4> names i need dunno
• 622[10:48:30] <ratrace> f8e4: default? under gnome?
• 623[10:48:48] <ratrace> ,i simple-scan
• 624[10:48:51] <judd> Package simple-scan (gnome, optional) in buster/amd64: Simple Scanning Utility. Version: 3.30.1.1-1+b1; Size: 519.9k; Installed: 3513k; Homepage: replaced-url
• 625[10:48:55] <rendar> ratrace: do i have to reboot?
• 626[10:49:03] <EdePopede> nope
• 627[10:49:03] <ratrace> rendar: no
• 628[10:49:12] <EdePopede> the only thing i ever reboot for are kernel upgrades
• 629[10:49:43] <ratrace> I also reboot for glibc updates
• 630[10:50:23] <n4dir> might or might not contain the solution for Recommends already installed, but calls it "the nuclear option": replaced-url
• 631[10:50:55] <EdePopede> hm. logout everywhere, just keeping agetty alive?
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• 633[10:51:16] <n4dir> i reboot when i go to sleep. ha ha
• 634[10:53:51] <n4dir> i try to translate a html site (docs) from english to german. Is there a better solution than vim or screen split and english on the one site and german/translation on the other?
• 635[10:54:09] <EdePopede> i wish i could put only one half of my brain to sleep, birds are so enviable.
• 636[10:54:31] <ratrace> n4dir: copypasta into translate.google.com. fix imperfections in vim :))
• 637[10:54:48] <n4dir> lol. probably.
• 638[10:55:09] <n4dir> i think what is killing me most is the html-syntax. Probably no way around that.
• 639[10:55:12] <EdePopede> or deepl.com
• 640[10:55:33] <EdePopede> google isn't as bad as it used to be years ago. was surprised.
• 641[10:55:43] <ratrace> n4dir: then vim split screen is good idea.
• 642[10:56:03] <n4dir> the translation itself isn't the real problem, it is ok. More the "logistical" part
• 643[10:56:06] <f8e4> ratrace: perfect wow not default installed
• 644[10:56:15] <ratrace> EdePopede: Yeah there was a period, a moment in time, when it suddenly stopped being terrible. some AI upgrade something somethign
• 645[10:56:19] <n4dir> ratrace: ah, ok, thanks. I hardly do such, and thought maybe there are solutions
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• 647[10:57:01] <ratrace> n4dir: vim is _always_ a solution for anything text. if you have your fingers programmed for vim commands, thatis.
• 648[10:57:13] <EdePopede> n4dir, you use the html sources during translation?
• 649[10:57:24] <n4dir> yeah, i am ok with vim. Not good, but still the fast for me
• 650[10:57:31] <n4dir> EdePopede: that is the problem
• 651[10:57:34] * EdePopede can't even get into cursor movement really :|
• 652[10:57:53] <EdePopede> n4dir: graying out tags may remove irritations a bit
• 653[10:58:04] <n4dir> EdePopede: you know how i could do that?
• 654[10:58:11] <n4dir> that would indeed help a hell lot
• 655[10:58:12] <EdePopede> or folding them away if there's an addon for it
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• 657[10:59:00] <EdePopede> something replace <[^>]+> with something including color codes
• 658[10:59:44] <n4dir> i will search for something like that later. Probably there is. I didn't think of it, good idea
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• 662[11:03:42] * wyatt8740 is better with emacs c-x-3 and c-x-2
• 663[11:04:24] <wyatt8740> cua-mode if you don't like other emacs bindings
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• 667[11:08:09] <EdePopede> is emacs vs xemacs still a thing?
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• 671[11:17:47] <n4dir> famous last words ....
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• 681[11:31:16] <EdePopede> Pure virtual packages: 646 <-- wasn't there some command "provides"?
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• 713[12:01:27] <Lope> does /etc/default/grub only understand double quotes like "foo" or can it understand single quotes like 'foo' also?
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• 717[12:06:19] <Lope> Oh cool, it's bash. I put a bash command in there and it executed!
• 718[12:06:40] <Lope> linux is legendary.
• 719[12:06:51] *** Quits: lead_pipe23 (~Lead@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
• 720[12:07:49] <n4dir> it stands on the shoulders of giants, that's why.
• 721[12:08:22] <Lope> yep
• 722[12:08:25] <Lope> giants upon giants
• 723[12:10:01] *** Quits: dselect (~dselect@replaced-ip) (Quit: ouch... that hurt)
• 724[12:10:08] <n4dir> i mainly thought of those two hillbillies though: replaced-url
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• 727[12:12:40] <ratrace> it actually stands on a few Unix Haters Handbooks stacked atop of one another, hence the apparent height of it.
• 728[12:13:35] <n4dir> bash haters is funny.
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• 732[12:18:31] <Lope> Any chance of LibreWolf getting into Debian? :) replaced-url
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• 735[12:27:29] <jelly> Lope, packaging web browsers is a nontrivial amount of work. Someone has to do that work for each release, and Debian can barely keep up with Firefox ESR.
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• 737[12:29:10] <EdePopede> wow, another fork. "LibreWolf is based on Librefox, whose development seems to have halted abruptly."
• 738[12:29:18] <n4dir> and most of such browsers come and go
• 739[12:29:28] <asymptotically> and then LibreWolf will stop abruptly when they realise how complicated maintaining a browser is :)
• 740[12:30:04] <Lope> hehehe
• 741[12:30:16] <Lope> alrighty, it just seemed very debian friendlt
• 742[12:30:58] <EdePopede> firefox is the babylon 5 amongst web browsers
• 743[12:31:15] <EdePopede> > We came to this place because Babylon 5 was our last, best hope for peace. By the end of 2259, we knew that it had failed.
• 744[12:31:43] <EdePopede> > But in the year of the Shadow War, it became something greater: our last, best hope – for victory.
• 745[12:31:46] <Lope> haha, pretty much the last holdout
• 746[12:32:09] <Lope> if firefox goes it'll be anal probes for everyone.
• 747[12:32:09] *** Quits: Vizva (~Vizva@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
• 748[12:32:11] <EdePopede> now the main reason is "don't let the dark forces take over the web"
• 749[12:32:38] *** Quits: Hooloovo0 (Hooloovoo@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
• 750[12:32:46] <Lope> for the greater good of course.
• 751[12:32:59] <Lope> be a slave for the greater good
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• 755[12:33:41] <Lope> and just die, cos you're not green, your existence is bad for the environment.
• 756[12:33:42] <EdePopede> even now google can do whatever they want. webdevs don't want to invest too much so they'll just follow the biggest pile of shit.
• 757[12:33:54] <EdePopede> chrome has something new? support it!
• 758[12:34:08] <EdePopede> chrome stops support for something? drop it!
• 759[12:34:09] <Lope> and don't speak. you might insight violence. just click like.
• 760[12:34:21] <Lope> Later we'll tell you which things you're allowed to click the like button on.
• 761[12:34:43] <n4dir> Eben Moglen has at least some entertaining speeches on yt. And as far it is me also informative
• 762[12:34:44] <EdePopede> browsers are even more extreme in that regard than office packages have been in the past.
• 763[12:34:46] *** Joins: Kevlar_Noir (~manjaro-u@replaced-ip)
• 764[12:35:02] <n4dir> funny you never hear of the freedombox nowhere, though being a debian project (kinda)
• 765[12:35:05] *** Joins: qin (~qin@replaced-ip)
• 766[12:35:28] <EdePopede> isn't ubuntu the distro for $everyone?
• 767[12:35:30] <n4dir> darknets too, and all that voodoo
• 768[12:36:02] <phogg> EdePopede: You're behind times, Ubuntu is primarily a subsystem for Windows.
• 769[12:36:07] <EdePopede> heh
• 770[12:36:13] <Thete> lol
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• 772[12:36:29] <EdePopede> so users don't even have to drop redmondOS anymore? eh, may be the reason for WSL
• 773[12:36:34] *** Joins: tijara_ (~tijara@replaced-ip)
• 774[12:36:56] <EdePopede> plans behind plans behind plans
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• 778[12:42:53] <ratrace> We have just folded space from Ix. Many machines on Ix. New machines. Better than those on Richesse..... you are transparent. We see plans, within plans. We see two great houses... feuding. We see..... you..... behind it."
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• 784[12:49:13] <wyatt8740> I kind of hate firefox nowadays just because I can't get it to build for PPC32 anymore
• 785[12:49:14] *** Joins: steph_ (~serard@replaced-ip)
• 786[12:49:45] <wyatt8740> (mostly because they use node.js/V8 for the _build system_ that builds spidermonkey/mozjs
• 787[12:49:53] <wyatt8740> )
• 788[12:50:04] <nkuttler> why don't you hate yourself for not maintaining a build system?
• 789[12:50:09] *** Quits: shibboleth (~shibbolet@replaced-ip) (Quit: shibboleth)
• 790[12:50:44] <wyatt8740> undoing those negations, that'd be "why do you hate yourself for maintaining a build system?"
• 791[12:50:56] <EdePopede> i've read Rust doesn't do parallel builds?
• 792[12:51:05] <wyatt8740> so I have to ask you, what do you mean
• 793[12:51:27] <wyatt8740> also ff for powerpc (port) is stuck on an old version as well because of this
• 794[12:51:50] <EdePopede> wasn't there something win64 years ago?
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• 796[12:52:21] <wyatt8740> win64 what exactly?you mean like a firefox fork for it? yeah
• 797[12:52:39] <wyatt8740> but idk what that has to do with powerpc firefox
• 798[12:53:08] <EdePopede> iirc mozilla itself had problems building it for 64bit on windows
• 799[12:53:18] <wyatt8740> ah, could be.
• 800[12:53:24] <EdePopede> because something max 3GB RAM usable or something
• 801[12:53:26] <wyatt8740> I don't pay attention to that OS at all anymore
• 802[12:53:33] <ratrace> what is PPC32 and do I have to go to local museum for a history lesson to find out what it is? :))
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• 805[12:53:43] <wyatt8740> ppc32 is powerPC 32-bit
• 806[12:53:43] <bifunc2> Immediately after installing and launching Debian 10 official for the first time, is it possible to configure AppArmor such that *every new program* (whether a binary downloaded from the internet or compiled by myself) gets by default *no access to anything whatsoever*?
• 807[12:53:46] <wyatt8740> think Powerbook G4
• 808[12:54:52] <EdePopede> 2001-2006, even my old working horse is from 2007 (bios date) :o
• 809[12:55:05] * wyatt8740 has an amiga 500 and a VIC-20
• 810[12:55:21] <EdePopede> though apple has a different timespan afaik
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• 813[12:55:40] <wyatt8740> i must say my 2004 pentium M dell laptop is a lot more useable than my powerbook
• 814[12:55:43] <wyatt8740> beefier, too
• 815[12:55:57] *** Joins: juniardivictor (~m01@replaced-ip)
• 816[12:56:09] <wyatt8740> apple had totally abandoned the ppc macs by 2009
• 817[12:56:18] <EdePopede> my XP machine is dead, something with the board. the SE machine should still run. also the 486 i hope :)
• 818[12:56:35] <EdePopede> also a big hope, time to install debian on them. just because.
• 819[12:56:39] <wyatt8740> I'd like a '486
• 820[12:56:45] <wyatt8740> just never see them around
• 821[12:57:19] <wyatt8740> but honestly I'm happy with fiddling with my amiga and my newer PC compatibles can do most of what a 486 would besides ISA cards
• 822[12:57:24] <EdePopede> must have been the one where i started using linux.
• 823[12:57:55] *** Joins: Vizva (~Vizva@replaced-ip)
• 824[12:57:56] <wyatt8740> last i knew linux kernel had dropped the '386 but not the 486 yet
• 825[12:58:18] <EdePopede> isn't it a pity. but that's how universe works.
• 826[12:58:32] <wyatt8740> I'm not lamenting that
• 827[12:58:39] <wyatt8740> just saying yours likely still can run a newish kernel
• 828[12:58:51] <EdePopede> progress means you have to leave things behind sometimes. not that i'd like it.
• 829[12:59:06] <EdePopede> only not sure about RAM heh
• 830[12:59:09] * wyatt8740 drives a volvo from 1993
• 831[12:59:27] <wyatt8740> not looking forward to saying goodbye
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• 835[13:01:30] <wyatt8740> still thanks to not using windows it means I can squeeze a lot more work out of older machines
• 836[13:01:56] <wyatt8740> not being beholden to hw manufacturers for driver updates
• 837[13:02:06] <EdePopede> definitely. i don't even care much about desktop anymore, browsers are the hog on linux
• 838[13:02:27] <wyatt8740> firefox is the best remaining option I think, for most tasks
• 839[13:02:31] <wyatt8740> as much as i like netsurf
• 840[13:02:36] <EdePopede> so before asking yourself if your hardware still can run KDE, do you plan to use a modern webbrowser? ;)
• 841[13:02:48] <wyatt8740> I use fvwm :|
• 842[13:02:49] <EdePopede> our last hope
• 843[13:03:09] <EdePopede> used it around 20 years ago before i switched to KDE. 2 i guess.
• 844[13:03:23] <EdePopede> after trying out maybe a dozen other WMs
• 845[13:03:26] <wyatt8740> fvwm has gotten some work done since covid hit
• 846[13:03:39] <wyatt8740> fvwm3 is out now (not in debian repos yet though)
• 847[13:03:43] <EdePopede> oh
• 848[13:04:01] <EdePopede> now with even more possible actions per window decoration element?
• 849[13:04:07] <wyatt8740> has RandR at last
• 850[13:04:19] <wyatt8740> heh actually its largely compatible with 2.6 config files
• 851[13:04:38] <wyatt8740> not sure on all the new features though
• 852[13:04:40] <wyatt8740> lemme check
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• 854[13:05:03] <wyatt8740> here I mostly use it so I can rotate my tablet/laptop hybrid's screen more painlessly
• 855[13:05:12] <EdePopede> C-S-RMB on right border → upload screenshot to imgur
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• 858[13:07:15] <wyatt8740> ah, an emacs user i see
• 859[13:07:18] <wyatt8740> good taste
• 860[13:07:30] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 861[13:07:36] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 862[13:08:43] <EdePopede> i'm on the hp, looks good. maybe i'll drop xfce in favour of a wm (which probably would be fvwm)
• 863[13:09:00] <EdePopede> and 2*5 buttons should be enough even for me
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• 866[13:10:56] <wyatt8740> I like MATE a lot still (soft spot)
• 867[13:11:09] <wyatt8740> but i've been using fvwm at least two or three years now
• 868[13:11:14] <EdePopede> how is it on buster?
• 869[13:11:21] <wyatt8740> MATE?
• 870[13:11:28] <wyatt8740> Probably fine; I am on sid though
• 871[13:11:49] <wyatt8740> my only "stable" install is still on jessie
• 872[13:11:50] <EdePopede> i have an installation on another machine with just everythign offered during install and so far it's not running nicely :(
• 873[13:11:54] <EdePopede> ah
• 874[13:11:54] *** Joins: rolo_ (~error@replaced-ip)
• 875[13:12:03] <EdePopede> but didn't look into mate yet
• 876[13:12:14] <wyatt8740> if you ever used GNOME 2, it's basically that
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• 878[13:12:38] <EdePopede> nah, i even always preferred Qt over Gtk.
• 879[13:12:49] <wyatt8740> that's fine; these days I like gtk less and less
• 880[13:12:58] <EdePopede> then after years of KDE (2+3) i switched to xfce on squeeze or what it was
• 881[13:13:06] <wyatt8740> I still like how I don't have to write C++ to use gtk but that's the only benefit
• 882[13:13:31] <EdePopede> there's a small config dialog in cinnamon for something panel related. small in the sense that it's just a few switches
• 883[13:13:42] <EdePopede> still a huge monster covering half of the screen
• 884[13:13:43] <wyatt8740> Cinnamon is similar to MATE in a lot of ways
• 885[13:14:04] <wyatt8740> one of the big reasons I dropped MATE for FVWM was the extra screen real estate
• 886[13:14:13] <wyatt8740> wish I had a 1:1 monitor but no money
• 887[13:14:22] <EdePopede> i don't even like websites being mobile first^Wonly, now this idiocy already conquers the desktops
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• 891[13:15:43] <wyatt8740> honestly, though I never intend to switch to it, i appreciate the OpenBSD guys' perspective more and more over time
• 892[13:16:24] *** Quits: SoulsForBelial (~SoulsForB@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
• 893[13:16:25] <EdePopede> being inclusive?
• 894[13:16:32] <wyatt8740> nah not talking about that
• 895[13:16:37] <wyatt8740> just the software choices
• 896[13:16:43] <wyatt8740> Openbsd comes with fvwm for instance
• 897[13:16:49] <wyatt8740> Socially, they're a mess
• 898[13:17:19] <ratrace> bifunc2: nope
• 899[13:17:32] <ratrace> bifunc2: it's not like selinux strict mode that disables unconfined_t
• 900[13:18:00] <bifunc2> ratrace so by default new programs can do what they like? that's weird..
• 901[13:18:11] <bifunc2> so the burden is on me to always remember to first create a profile?
• 902[13:18:30] <ratrace> if a program has no apparmor profile, it's not confined. however, you _could_ simulate selinux strict by giving your DM or main shell a profile with transitions that denies everything that has no transition but that's.... a bit verbose to write out
• 903[13:18:45] <ratrace> bifunc2: that's how apparmor works. it's a paradigm different from selinux's
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• 905[13:19:05] <EdePopede> unfortunately. i just rebooted this machine, apache was fired up by systemd. which also happened right after installation. no apparmor, no default firewall, but apache on *:80.
• 906[13:20:01] <wyatt8740> wait, a fresh install of 10 has an apache httpd?
• 907[13:20:05] <ratrace> apache is not installed by default tho. it is assumed the operator knows what they're doing and they would preset packet filtering if they intend to install sensitive software
• 908[13:20:13] <EdePopede> no, after installing apache
• 909[13:20:47] <EdePopede> but i would expect it (and everything else) to NOT listen to the worled per default on a potentially unprotected machine.
• 910[13:20:59] <wyatt8740> ah.
• 911[13:21:11] <bifunc2> ratrace ok i wasn't aware of that, thanks
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• 913[13:21:41] <EdePopede> ratrace: sure, but i can't change the config before installation. ofc i need it only locally, not worldwide ;)
• 914[13:21:55] <ratrace> EdePopede: but you just installed apache. it is assumed you do want a httpd to listen on port 80
• 915[13:22:11] <wyatt8740> Hm, i don't feel strongly either way on this one
• 916[13:22:15] <wyatt8740> i can understand both arguments
• 917[13:22:17] <bifunc2> ratrace so isn't it just a matter of setting it up? replaced-url
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• 920[13:22:24] <EdePopede> but on some local IP(s), actually i don't even have a LAN, so localhost would just be enough
• 921[13:22:25] <ratrace> however, I _do_ dislike the auto(re)start behaviour of debian packages. it's moronic for many other reasons
• 922[13:22:36] <wyatt8740> i was annoyed when a samba install decided it should run at boot, for instance, since I only was using it for a QEMU VM
• 923[13:22:38] <EdePopede> everything, or at least most of auto
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• 926[13:22:48] <EdePopede> autostart, autoexec, autorun, autoinstall
• 927[13:22:56] <EdePopede> former windows user here :P
• 928[13:23:05] <ratrace> bifunc2: the policies are .... well, lets say debian is NOT tested to JustWorks(tm) levels, like fedora and RHEL clones, with SELinux enabled. might get some work to do it.
• 929[13:23:21] <bifunc2> hmm ok
• 930[13:23:39] *** Joins: Major_Biscuit (~Major_Bis@replaced-ip)
• 931[13:23:50] <bifunc2> this is kinda sad, because debian is the only distro i know that has solid ReproducibleBuilds (99% at least) with a 100% goal
• 932[13:24:00] <bifunc2> (i.e., more confidence binaries are solid)
• 933[13:24:12] <bifunc2> any other distro like that but has selinux?
• 934[13:24:15] <ratrace> EdePopede: then again, knowing what debian does, it's easy to set up packet filtering and punch port holes after everything that's supposed to listen, is set up
• 935[13:24:21] <EdePopede> i remember an article in an IT magazine years ago on a new release on some distro. the thing i still remember was "we don't have any firewall because we just don't design services to listen to the world."
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• 938[13:24:55] <ratrace> bifunc2: out of the box? afaik only Fedora/RHEL clones come with selinux enabled. gentoo has awesome support for it but that's not reproducible builds.
• 939[13:25:07] <ratrace> *and clones
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• 941[13:25:12] <wyatt8740> Wasn't there a windows XP vuln that didn't require it to be listening on a port to work?
• 942[13:25:16] <EdePopede> ratrace: all i did was to get some firewall settings from an introductary article, find out how it works and adapt it in a few steps. and now i'll have to care for a new system.
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• 944[13:25:59] <f8e4> folks i download pdf, i need gurantee not malware embedded, pdf very prone; now i look: replaced-url
• 945[13:26:01] <ratrace> EdePopede: question is only WHERE you place your trust. do you really trust NONE of the packages will EVER, not even by mistake, listen on a public IP by default?
• 946[13:26:16] <EdePopede> i'm still running that old adapted script. close everything, just keep something open for DCC (just for the case) and don't drop replies.
• 947[13:26:17] <ratrace> EdePopede: if you don't trust that, and you shouldn't, always set up packet filtering regardless of packaging promises.
• 948[13:26:27] <ratrace> f8e4: no such tool
• 949[13:26:52] <wyatt8740> especially for whenever systemd decides to ship some new feature (more a problem for me on Sid than for the stable users though)
• 950[13:27:06] <ratrace> "guarantee not malware embedded" .. such tool does not exist, anywhere.
• 951[13:27:21] <EdePopede> ratrace: i would be able to check if the binary does something to open some port, no?
• 952[13:27:48] <ratrace> EdePopede: and my point is, why waste time checking if the binary does something. just set up packet filtering and punch holes where you do know will be needed.
• 953[13:28:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1182
• 954[13:28:07] <ratrace> then you don't rely on anything making any (broken) promises.
• 955[13:28:10] <EdePopede> ideally both of it should be true
• 956[13:28:20] <wyatt8740> ^if your answer is "inconvenient" then that's just the tradeoff
• 957[13:28:36] <ratrace> yes. but proper security resides on assumption you do not trust anything, so you build up layers for various use cases and attack angles.
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• 962[13:29:17] <ratrace> this, for example, is being repeatedly demonstrated by OpenBSD. theiry security paradigm is "correct code". so they invented pledge, but have NO confinement mechanisms. they trust the code.
• 963[13:29:19] <EdePopede> systemd seems to behave here (stretch) more or less. i hope what i see in buster isn't a clear tendency.
• 964[13:29:29] <ratrace> and yet ...... each of the tools they themselves develop, has had (and will have) CVEs...
• 965[13:29:55] <ratrace> so, there is no such thing as "correct code". there's only somewhat more or less correct. so you build up defenses for the less correct cases.
• 966[13:29:59] <wyatt8740> edepopede: i'm talking about things like defaulting to google's DNS rather than failing when it thinks DNS is misconfigured
• 967[13:30:12] <wyatt8740> ratrace: "Reflections on Trusting Trust" is a good read though, even if your code is good
• 968[13:30:17] <EdePopede> apparmor, selinux, pfw...whatever weird name the new firewall has. any more systems to look for?
• 969[13:30:30] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 970[13:30:53] <EdePopede> wyatt8740: yep, i really don't like the idea. same for DoH for the same reason
• 971[13:31:05] <ratrace> wyatt8740: ah, nice.
• 972[13:31:18] <f8e4> how to detect mailcoius pdf when downloaded please
• 973[13:31:43] <ratrace> f8e4: upload to virustotal.com
• 974[13:31:45] *** Quits: alex11 (~alex11@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
• 975[13:31:53] <wyatt8740> Ken Thompson paper btw
• 976[13:31:56] <ratrace> or run any of the commerical antiviruses. clamav is crap
• 977[13:31:57] <f8e4> you think reilable i think its fake there
• 978[13:32:04] <EdePopede> and live with fact that you'll never get 100%
• 979[13:32:10] *** Joins: alex11 (~alex11@replaced-ip)
• 980[13:32:35] <ratrace> f8e4: however many of the malware vectors are not detectable by antivirus software, especially for linux vectors
• 981[13:32:36] <wyatt8740> f8e4: any better? replaced-url
• 982[13:32:48] <bifunc2> ratrace what a sad state of affairs lol, but then, i still think debian is the way to go because of reproduciblebuilds. then as long as you stick to only official binaries or common, reputable open-source software compiled by yourself, i suppose AppArmor is fine
• 983[13:32:59] <ratrace> f8e4: in other words, instead of trusting an antivirus, build defenses aroudn your pdf viewer so any malware that does happen, is limited in what it can do
• 984[13:33:22] <f8e4> mmh replaced-url
• 985[13:33:25] <ratrace> for example, I have an apparmor profile on zathura, the thing I use for PDF, and firefox which can also do PDF but its vectory are mostly elsewhere.
• 986[13:34:02] <ratrace> bifunc2: but isn't fedora/RHEL land in the reproducible builds zone now?
• 987[13:34:09] <EdePopede> or run a live system on a dedicated machine and convert pdf to text or image
• 988[13:34:11] <wyatt8740> f8e4: if you download that you have to trust every python package that it depends on
• 989[13:34:15] <f8e4> if chromium to open pdf, i hope for devs to have it closed all loopholes
• 990[13:34:29] <ratrace> f8e4: don't hope. build defenses around it.
• 991[13:35:07] <wyatt8740> and just assume that nothing is sacred
• 992[13:35:09] <f8e4> i cant apparmor: chormium needs 2x profiles then
• 993[13:35:09] <ratrace> containers, firejail is the simplest defense. mandatory access control like apparmor or selinux is better, AND it can be made to confine the container for multiple layers
• 994[13:35:19] <EdePopede> f8e4, "all"? would mean no more patches needed in the future.
• 995[13:35:29] <ratrace> f8e4: why 2?
• 996[13:35:39] <f8e4> one normal use; other pdf use
• 997[13:35:43] <ratrace> no, why?
• 998[13:35:56] <wyatt8740> I'd just set up a profile for xpdf or something…
• 999[13:36:05] <ratrace> I use firefox, not chromium. I have single apparmor profile on it. I am confidend with the profile I wrote, to open any website or PDFs online.
• 1000[13:36:21] <bifunc2> ratrace, googling reveals no such thing for Fedora
• 1001[13:36:51] <ratrace> of course, that only confines the FF process from accessing the rest of the system. it does not prevent random site or malicious PDF, with embedded cryptominer to exploit my energy resources for someones financial benefit
• 1002[13:36:58] <ratrace> bifunc2: replaced-url
• 1003[13:37:18] <ratrace> or was that just a "here's an idea" stage?
• 1004[13:37:24] <ratrace> *at
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• 1006[13:37:27] <bifunc2> yeah looks like just an idea
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• 1008[13:38:06] <ratrace> personally I wouldn't place too much trust into reproducible builds. primarily because there's no single framework to actually take advantage of it
• 1009[13:38:10] <wyatt8740> oh hey, debian wiki links to "trusting trust"
• 1010[13:38:38] <ratrace> when apt (and friends) grows the ability to verify the builds against some decentralized, but trustworthy database ... then it'd be something
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• 1012[13:39:16] * f8e4 ok
• 1013[13:39:32] <ratrace> case in point: let's say snaps have reproducible builds. snapcraft would, happily, reproducibly build, that same snap that contained the cryptominer malware.
• 1014[13:39:46] <wyatt8740> in all honesty when I'm building my own packages I just use -uc -us -b
• 1015[13:39:59] <wyatt8740> Never used snaps/flatpaks/docker containers though
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• 1018[13:40:11] <f8e4> there is tool to embedd hash of file into the file, wow
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• 1024[13:41:58] * ratrace steps out for lunch
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• 1028[13:43:06] <EdePopede> l(a)unchtime ;)
• 1029[13:43:16] <f8e4> rocketman up
• 1030[13:43:26] <wyatt8740> crud, it's 1 AM. Time to sleep
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• 1040[13:54:18] <bifunc2> ratrace thanks for the insights today!
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• 1048[14:06:50] <relipse> How do I get email for my domain name?
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• 1052[14:11:55] <abrotman> relipse: you would create an MX record pointing at your A/AAAA record, then configure your MTA to accept mail for this domain
• 1053[14:12:03] <abrotman> and that's the very simplified version ..
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• 1071[14:35:59] <ratrace> that said, MX is not needed at all
• 1072[14:36:05] <ratrace> (but it's better to have it, yes)
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• 1076[14:37:47] <Bushdog> hello, I am having some issues, when I type a2enmod proxy it says command not found in my Debian 10
• 1077[14:38:06] <Bushdog> but it works fine in my debian 9 other installed in other machine
• 1078[14:38:15] <Bushdog> can anyone shed some light
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• 1082[14:40:02] <ratrace> Bushdog: how are you running it? with sudo or did you first su (and forgot to -l)?
• 1083[14:40:09] <ratrace> !buster su
• 1084[14:40:10] <dpkg> In buster, su no longer overrides PATH by default, requiring that you use "su -" or "su -l" for login shells (which is not really a new thing at all...). See replaced-url
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• 1087[14:41:56] <Bushdog> ratrace, excellent, its working now, thanks a lot
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• 1089[14:42:17] <Bushdog> i did not do su -l before ratrace
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• 1104[14:56:04] <Mazhive> guys is it possible to copy all data from a lvm from a specific pv to another to in the end remove the pv
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• 1111[14:59:28] <ratrace> Mazhive: sure, in a nutshell, you add another pv with vgextend, and then you pvremove the pv you want.... removed.
• 1112[14:59:44] <ratrace> pvmove + pvremove, I mean
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• 1118[15:02:31] <Mazhive> oke and how would i know the specific pv is empty
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• 1121[15:03:10] <wsky> open it?
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• 1123[15:03:49] <ratrace> Mazhive: with `pvs`
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• 1126[15:04:41] <Bushdog> hi, ratrace I have added couple of my external hard drives into my apache server by utiizing syml link command, but apache cant find it when I do localhost, i did chmod and still wont show
• 1127[15:04:53] <Bushdog> any clue why its not showing up
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• 1129[15:04:59] <aplainzetakind> Is python-is-python3 not available on buster? And if not, is it safe to manually alter the python symlink?
• 1130[15:05:11] <ratrace> Bushdog: you'll have to be more specific because what you wrote, literally, makes zero sense :)
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• 1135[15:06:17] <Mazhive> @ratrace hmm ofcourse oke thanx
• 1136[15:06:47] <Bushdog> ratrace, i have created a directory and then wen to 000-default conf file in apache and showed the directory path in document root , so it is showing up the directory which is inside my hard drive, but the symlinks for external hard drives wont show up in local host
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• 1138[15:07:45] <ratrace> Bushdog: what are symlinks to external drives? the drives would have to be mounted somewhere, so are you talking about symlinking the mountpoints into some vhost directory path?
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• 1140[15:08:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1198
• 1141[15:08:20] <Bushdog> yes ratrace replaced-url
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• 1145[15:08:53] <ratrace> Bushdog: and you have Options FollowSymlinks for the Directory ?
• 1146[15:09:02] <ratrace> (in vhost config)
• 1147[15:09:23] <Bushdog> let me paste you what i have done in 000-default.conf
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• 1149[15:11:21] <Bushdog> ratrace, replaced-url
• 1150[15:13:04] <ratrace> Bushdog: I recommend you ask in #httpd, I'm not apache expert, I use nginx.
• 1151[15:13:21] <Bushdog> so ratrace top part for external IP and bottom part for localhost, do you want me to copy paste all these in local host Lan Options Indexes FollowSymLinks
• 1152[15:13:21] <Bushdog> AllowOverride None
• 1153[15:13:21] <Bushdog> Require all granted
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• 1156[15:13:45] <Bushdog> OKAY ratrace THANks
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• 1158[15:15:34] <dvs> Are the Debian ISO sites down? I'm getting a 403 error.
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• 1163[15:20:24] <ratrace> dvs: they're not "down", but yes, the links are throwing 403
• 1164[15:20:38] * dvs stomps up and down!
• 1165[15:21:00] <ratrace> and it's leaking into mirrors.... a happy little chmod accident I'd presume.
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• 1171[15:23:18] <EdePopede> someone should beat the devil out of it
• 1172[15:23:24] <ratrace> dvs: try some other iso mirrors: replaced-url
• 1173[15:23:48] <ratrace> make sure you verify csums from another mirror
• 1174[15:24:07] <wsky> i think EdePopede has really short memory
• 1175[15:24:31] <wsky> sometimes i want to help him with that
• 1176[15:24:35] <dvs> Is there a nonfree ISO list?
• 1177[15:24:44] <ratrace> you mean firmware ISOs?
• 1178[15:24:54] <dvs> yes
• 1179[15:24:59] <wsky> he forgot how polish sabre tastes like
• 1180[15:25:08] <oxek> what's the usual address to download debian .iso files when cdimage.debian.org gives me 403?
• 1181[15:25:10] <ratrace> !firmware iso
• 1182[15:25:10] <dpkg> There are <live> system and <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages available from replaced-url
• 1183[15:25:38] <ratrace> oxek: I just posted the ISO mirrors list above
• 1184[15:26:01] <dvs> The firmware is forbidden too!
• 1185[15:26:19] <oxek> oh I see, it's not just me having issues
• 1186[15:26:22] <ratrace> sneak attack by RMS followers!
• 1187[15:26:36] <oxek> the .torrent file should have been made available somewhere else
• 1188[15:26:43] <oxek> even a .magnet link would work
• 1189[15:27:09] <wsky> we got our eyes on you, EdePopede
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• 1198[15:32:52] <wsky> replaced-url
• 1199[15:33:07] <ratrace> wsky: you're in the wrong channel for that.
• 1200[15:33:25] <wsky> so stop that nazi from threatening me
• 1201[15:33:41] <ratrace> if anoyne is threatening you, report to the ops. please stop the noise in this channel.
• 1202[15:34:14] <wsky> ok, i can remind him polish steel intead
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• 1205[15:41:26] <Brigo_> ,v firmware-misc-nonfree
• 1206[15:41:27] <judd> Package: firmware-misc-nonfree on amd64 -- jessie-security/non-free: 20161130-5~deb8u1; stretch/non-free: 20161130-5; stretch-backports/non-free: 20190114-2~bpo9+1; buster/non-free: 20190114-2; buster-backports/non-free: 20200918-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/non-free: 20201218-3; sid/non-free: 20201218-3
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• 1231[16:01:58] <wsky> that german nazi wont end up good
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• 1261[16:23:05] <rango> Anyone else receiving this error when trying to access non free images? replaced-url
• 1262[16:23:22] <dvs> yup
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• 1264[16:25:20] <rango> dvs, thanks
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• 1302[16:53:53] <alex11> how can i forcibly kill 'zombie' processes that won't go away with a simple kill <pid>?
• 1303[16:54:09] <n4dir> kill -9 ?
• 1304[16:54:13] <foxide> Can't kill zombies.
• 1305[16:54:27] <foxide> Kill their parent, sit and wait, ignore them, or reboot.
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• 1307[16:54:47] <ratrace> what foxide said
• 1308[16:55:11] <alex11> is there a way to see what the parent is?
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• 1314[16:57:40] <foxide> alex11: ps -e, PPID column.
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• 1350[17:33:37] <Gracana> I just installed Debian 10 and I'm reading the manual on network configuration; it describes "modern network configuration without GUI" using systemd, which I'm not famliliar with. The /etc/network/interfaces stuff I'm used to is decribed as "legacy", but it seems like that's the system being used in my fresh install. Should I migrate somehow? Is the legacy way the correct method for stable?
• 1351[17:36:25] <ratrace> Gracana: which manual is that? interfaces(5) is very much still the default network configuration framework
• 1352[17:36:37] <Gracana> replaced-url
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• 1354[17:37:55] <ratrace> I see. You don't have to migrate. if you like interfaces(5) (the "legacy" method), you can use that just fine
• 1355[17:38:31] <Gracana> Great. Thanks for the advice. I was just worried that "legacy" was hinting at "soon to be deprecated".
• 1356[17:39:06] <ratrace> I'm not aware of any discussion to deprecate it. it's very much present in debian next, Bullseye.
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• 1359[17:39:51] <Gracana> Good!
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• 1375[17:56:21] <GNU\colossus> well, ifupdown has a number of shortcomings, and various replacement attempts have been cooking for years. i'm looking forward to when that beast can finally die.
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• 1458[19:13:52] <Iamahuman> I'm a newb to distro's beta versions. If I install a beta of Debian11, how complicated would it be to upgrade to the final release version and are there any pitfalls or risks in installing beta and then upgrading?
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• 1462[19:14:39] <sney> if you install bullseye now, and do normal upgrades periodically, it will become debian 11 automatically upon release
• 1463[19:14:44] <SoundShaman> beta is for testing usually
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• 1465[19:15:09] <SoundShaman> what sney said too
• 1466[19:15:25] <sney> "beta" only applies to the installer version. IME the beta 3 installer works fine for installing bullseye. sometimes the testing installer is broken but this one does not appear to be.
• 1467[19:15:34] <SoundShaman> oh ok
• 1468[19:15:52] <jaami> hi, my sound settings do not show me the output device i am connected to via bluetooth
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• 1471[19:17:13] <jaami> how do i tell debian that sound output sould be redirected to bluetooth handfree?\
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• 1474[19:17:41] <sponix> sney: is there a place I can read the reason for the Apache2 Buster backport? I am running well on the regular stable one, but if the backport is needed for like security -- then I want to go ahead and do that
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• 1476[19:18:02] <sney> jaami: there are some troubleshooting tips here, see if any of them apply replaced-url
• 1477[19:18:16] <jaami> ty
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• 1479[19:18:59] <sney> sponix: backports are not usually done for security reasons. check the changelog at tracker.debian.org to find out the differences between apache versions, but as a non apache user if I had to guess I'd say it was done to make newer features available.
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• 1485[19:23:40] <sponix> sney: I got to -> replaced-url
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• 1487[19:24:33] <sponix> sney: I feel you are likely right though. It is backported for features, because if it was a security thing they would just release a regular security update to the stable one now that I think about it
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• 1490[19:25:31] <sney> sponix: middle of the left side, the "versioned links" panel, the icon that looks like 3 lines with a checkmark is for the changelog. you can see the list of versions per branch in the panel above that (e.g. the one that ends with ~bpo10+1 is your backport)
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• 1493[19:28:14] <sponix> sney: thanks
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• 1499[19:37:14] <Nemin> Hi, I'm in a bit of a predicament and I figured perhaps I might get some pointers here. I'm helping out in a project that tries to create a new, FOSS engine for a retro game and I'm trying to make it available on multiple distros. The problem is that while the team has agreed that they software will be FOSS, there is currently no consensus whether
• 1500[19:37:14] <Nemin> the license will be MIT or GPL, so the project is technically unlicensed. Is there any way for it to end up in the Debian repos with this issue? Even if only in non-free for the time being?
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• 1502[19:38:38] <sney> Nemin: a project with no license would be very unlikely to be approved, particularly something like a game where there is not an explicit need for it in a production environment or so
• 1503[19:39:07] <Nemin> Ah I was afraid that might be the case. Thanks for the answer
• 1504[19:39:31] <sney> np. if you can't decide between MIT/GPL then maybe one of these others will suit your fancy replaced-url
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• 1506[19:41:42] <Nemin> To be frank, the problem is less about which license we want and more about *when* we can start licensing it... However, going into details would probably be off-topic. Nonetheless, I'll check that link out, it's always good to have options.
• 1507[19:41:57] <sney> right on, good luck
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• 1519[19:47:49] <Nemin> I do have one more question, I've used to be an Arch user for a long time and I've found it's package manager to bring up really good and relevant results. Now I'm struggling a bit with Apt. --names-only helps sometimes, but I still feel like too many irrelevant entries come up. Is there some hidden trick that flew over my head or some recommended
• 1520[19:47:49] <Nemin> good practice to hone in better on what one really wants to install?
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• 1522[19:48:58] <sponix> Nemin: try: apt show zfs-dkms
• 1523[19:49:45] <sney> Nemin: I find 'apt list' with well-placed globs is what I use the most these days.
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• 1525[19:50:51] <sney> there's also apt-file, and aptitude has a lot of handy options as well.
• 1526[19:50:55] <sney> !refcard
• 1527[19:50:55] <dpkg> A short reference of Debian commands - quite useful for someone new to Debian - can be found at replaced-url
• 1528[19:51:00] <Nemin> sney: That looks a bit closer to what I'm looking for. It's a shame it doesn't display descriptions, but I suppose I could use what sponix wrote above
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• 1530[19:51:48] <sney> ofc going from one package manager to another, you will have to get used to different conventions, different strengths/weaknesses, etc
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• 1533[19:52:21] <Nemin> Sure, that's a given. I was just wondering if I'm doing something wrong, because that's not exactly an implausible situation :)
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• 1552[20:07:15] <Gaming4JC> I installed python2-minimal on bullseye but 'import json' fails with no such module. Anyone know of a way to get this module back short of compiling python2 manually?
• 1553[20:09:27] <azeem> maybe it's in python2 not python2-minimal?
• 1554[20:10:37] <Gaming4JC> ah, yep that's probably it. I had thought python2 was removed, looks like I just had to fix my apt mirror
• 1555[20:11:58] <Gaming4JC> Worked. Thanks. :)
• 1556[20:13:35] <azeem> if python2 was removed, python2-minimal would've be gone along with it
• 1557[20:14:09] <Nemin> I wonder, will python2 support eventually be dropped in one or two releases? Or what's the policy in this case?
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• 1559[20:14:28] <azeem> I think they tried to drop it for bullseye, I'm not sure that is still on the table
• 1560[20:14:53] <Gaming4JC> Unfortunately there's still quite a few legacy projects stuck on python2
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• 1563[20:15:13] <Nemin> azeem: Doesn't seem to be the case, apt list brings it up
• 1564[20:15:23] <azeem> bullseye isn't released yet
• 1565[20:15:28] <Nemin> Fair enough
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• 1605[20:54:00] <Gaming4JC> Is there a way to disable libtnotify4? Outside of removing it which auto-removes a bunch of other packages.
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• 1609[20:57:37] <ratrace> that smells like !xy
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• 1612[21:00:03] <Gaming4JC> looks like XFCE allows blocking invidivual apps on it's notification manager, not sure about other desktops
• 1613[21:00:05] <Gaming4JC> better than nothing
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• 1619[21:04:28] <wyatt8740> Is there somewhere I can find source code for old packages that have been removed from modern debian? Like, sources for a package removed from sid/testing?
• 1620[21:04:44] <wyatt8740> (e.g., not a "release" that would have an apt archive)
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• 1623[21:05:32] <azeem> wyatt8740: e.g. snapshot.debian.org
• 1624[21:06:02] <wyatt8740> ahhh yes! I'd seen this page but totally forgotten about it. Let me try that
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• 1626[21:06:22] <sponix> replaced-url
• 1627[21:06:29] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 1628[21:06:34] <wyatt8740> sponix: I'm looking for sid
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• 1630[21:06:51] <wyatt8740> sources for old packages that used to be in sid
• 1631[21:06:52] <sponix> I just saw "OLD Packages" ;)
• 1632[21:06:58] <sponix> sorry
• 1633[21:07:16] <wyatt8740> ah i guess its in source package libpng
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• 1637[21:08:00] <wyatt8740> (trying to run a valve game without steam… gonna use LD_LIBRARY_PATH and build custom debian packages from sources)
• 1638[21:08:13] <wyatt8740> thanks azeem I think this is exactly what I was looking for
• 1639[21:08:38] <wyatt8740> for some things I can use tracker.debian.org and find a git repo but this is actually what I wanted
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• 1642[21:10:53] <wyatt8740> and it has the stuff for the weirder architectures too, awesome
• 1643[21:11:06] <wyatt8740> i'd been doing dpkg-buildpackage on a powerbook g4 occasionally, kinda painful
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• 1649[21:14:09] <Thete> is ppc packages still maintained for that?
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• 1651[21:15:33] <wyatt8740> ports.debian.org
• 1652[21:15:39] <wyatt8740> so kinda :)
• 1653[21:15:47] <wyatt8740> It's basically running sid
• 1654[21:16:20] <wyatt8740> Gimp 2.10 isn't packaged due to a GEGL build problem (basically meson times out before some tests would complete) so I had to build some stuff for that myself
• 1655[21:16:37] <wyatt8740> but apart from that pretty much everything works
• 1656[21:17:41] <wyatt8740> Oh yeah and there's an ATI driver bug that means i have to set agpmode=-1 at boot or it locks up in X
• 1657[21:17:48] <wyatt8740> that's KMS related
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• 1660[21:20:24] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
• 1661[21:20:41] <wyatt8740> it's not considered a "release architecture" but it's still quite useable overall
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• 1664[21:20:57] <wyatt8740> It has a nice big screen and a good aspect ratio so I use it for drawing with krita sometimes
• 1665[21:21:13] <Thete> that's cool
• 1666[21:21:35] <wyatt8740> also to watch MASH on an S-Video screen
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• 1668[21:22:20] <wyatt8740> and there are one or two emulators that run nicely on it as well (Genesis Plus GX, which was optimized for Wii PPC at one point, as well as old snes9x releases and a couple game boy emulators)
• 1669[21:22:25] *** Joins: BrianG61UK (~BrianG61U@replaced-ip)
• 1670[21:22:42] <wyatt8740> also here and there i find a few endian bugs in software that I get to report
• 1671[21:23:40] <wyatt8740> I am running an old version fo seamonkey based on firefox 52 or so that I compiled myself, since modern firefox/seamonkey have some build-system dependencies like node.js and the V8 JS engine doesn't have a translator for 32-bit powerpc
• 1672[21:24:08] <InZaneGamer84> wyatt8740 you're on PPC arch?
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• 1674[21:24:30] <wyatt8740> One of my machines is; i'm typing this on an old thinkpad but I have a powerbook G4 running debian sid next to me yeah
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• 1676[21:25:24] <InZaneGamer84> cool
• 1677[21:25:27] <wyatt8740> my holy grail would be to get some cheap hardware for m68k some day (my amiga 500 won't work because no MMU)
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• 1679[21:25:57] <InZaneGamer84> wyatt8740 um wow. why would you wanna run linux on m68k?
• 1680[21:26:04] <wyatt8740> Mainly to say I can
• 1681[21:26:13] <wyatt8740> and to give the debian m68k port some love
• 1682[21:26:24] <InZaneGamer84> i can understand that sentiment. i didn't know there was a m68k port
• 1683[21:26:32] <InZaneGamer84> it's coded in asm?
• 1684[21:26:35] <wyatt8740> nope
• 1685[21:26:41] <wyatt8740> C
• 1686[21:26:48] <wyatt8740> replaced-url
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• 1688[21:26:53] <InZaneGamer84> thank god for that atleast
• 1689[21:27:10] <wyatt8740> If it were something like a 6502 that'd be hilarious though
• 1690[21:27:22] <wyatt8740> but the m68k is significantly better than that, especially from 68020 onward
• 1691[21:27:40] <InZaneGamer84> yeah
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• 1694[21:28:10] <wyatt8740> I'd also like alpha machines or sparcstations or sgi mips boxen, but those aren't cheap and i'm a college student
• 1695[21:28:13] <wyatt8740> in america
• 1696[21:29:34] <wyatt8740> when i installed debian powerpc it was still an official "release" architecture (2017 or 2018), but it since got moved to the -ports project which suffers from a critical shortage of awareness
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• 1698[21:30:22] <wyatt8740> that said i'm certain m68k debian is more bug-ridden than powerpc 32
• 1699[21:30:26] <wyatt8740> just based on age and rot
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• 1711[21:40:09] <dondelelcaro> ah; yeah, that probably needs to be recompiled against libpng16
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• 1840[23:05:41] <slowly_stuck> My ssh client is sending LANG="en_US.UTF-8" to debian server (checked with ssh -v), but server is setting LANG=C. /etc/ssh/sshd_config has (the default) "AcceptEnv LANG LC_*". How can I debug this further?
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• 1852[23:16:06] <Vhost> hallo
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• 1854[23:17:23] <InZaneGamer84> Vhost hiya
• 1855[23:17:37] <Vhost> InZaneGamer84 can help,
• 1856[23:17:38] <Vhost> replaced-url
• 1857[23:18:10] *** Quits: Iamahuman (~noname@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
• 1858[23:18:19] <InZaneGamer84> vhost google setting PKG_CONFIG_PATH
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• 1862[23:19:40] <Vhost> InZaneGamer84 you meen export PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/lib/pkgconfig
• 1863[23:19:47] <Vhost> same problem
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• 1865[23:20:13] <sney> ,file libtls.pc
• 1866[23:20:17] <judd> No packages in buster/amd64 were found with that file.
• 1867[23:20:22] <sney> Vhost: what are you trying to do?
• 1868[23:20:55] <Vhost> ./configure
• 1869[23:21:09] <sney> !your screen
• 1870[23:21:10] <dpkg> Your screen is in front of your face. #debian cannot see it. Please give as many details as you can about the problem. It wastes our time and yours when we have to guess what is on your screen. See <context>, <what>
• 1871[23:21:56] <InZaneGamer84> sney hahahahahhahaha
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• 1874[23:22:26] <sney> ;)
• 1875[23:23:28] <Vhost> sney
• 1876[23:23:35] <Vhost> can you help ?
• 1877[23:24:49] *** Quits: tagomago (~tagomago@replaced-ip) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
• 1878[23:25:06] <sney> Vhost: that depends on whether you can describe the problem. As the bot just said, we can't see your screen. What are you trying to build? where did it come from? what other output is there? etc
• 1879[23:25:40] <InZaneGamer84> snes in his defense he did post terminal output of the error
• 1880[23:25:44] <InZaneGamer84> *sney ^
• 1881[23:25:57] <Vhost> sney: replaced-url
• 1882[23:26:14] <InZaneGamer84> sney replaced-url
• 1883[23:26:45] <sney> InZaneGamer84: if you can interpret full context from that, I want your telepathy secrets
• 1884[23:27:08] <Na_Klar> I have a program which runs in a terminal. This program listens to stdin and whenever it gets a line (ending with \n I assume) it converts the line to sound-signals. Ok. Now I have a second terminal from which I try to send a line to the first terminal. I do #printf "A\n" > /dev/pts/1# The first terminal does receive the A+return, as I can see it appearing in the terminal window. But the program does not execute the line. I still have to pres
• 1885[23:27:28] <InZaneGamer84> sney lol touche'
• 1886[23:28:35] <sney> Vhost: in the Installing section it says it requires libretls or libressl, neither of which is in debian.
• 1887[23:29:03] <Vhost> libretls or libressl i need apt install this packages
• 1888[23:29:07] <Vhost> ?
• 1889[23:29:08] <sney> so you will need to build/install libretls from this same site before building catgirl.
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• 1897[23:33:46] <jmcnaught> Na_Klar: your question was cut off at "I still have to pres…". Have you tried using a named pipe created with mkfifo instead?
• 1898[23:34:16] <Na_Klar> ...s enter with the frist terminal in focus. Why does the program not "understand" the \n for a execute command?
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• 1907[23:46:50] <Na_Klar> jmcnaught: If I see that correctly, the program in the first terminal would have to read from that named pipe. since I did not write that program I cannot make it read from a named pipe instead of from stdin.
• 1908[23:49:16] <jmcnaught> Na_Klar: redirecting stdin with '<' does not work with this program?
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