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• 2[00:06:39] <ectospasm> does firewalld on buster use iptables or nft as its backend? Is there a way I can determine that?
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• 14[00:17:17] <foxide> ectospasm: I would say to install and configure it, then see if there are any iptables rules.
• 15[00:17:32] <nifker> can I pipe text into a terminal emulator which it will directly execute or does it depend on the emulator?
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• 17[00:18:11] <ectospasm> nifker: what are you trying to do? tmux can do that, but it's not exactly a terminal emulator.
• 18[00:18:28] <foxide> ectospasm: Appears to use iptables, by the way.
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• 26[00:24:28] <ectospasm> Yeah, `iptables --list` shows some of my rules. I don't know how to use nft to see if it's just the iptables wrapper for nft.
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• 29[00:25:39] <ectospasm> nifker: most terminal emulators would need to take input from file descriptor other than the usual standard input (usually, your keyboard).
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• 31[00:26:04] <ectospasm> nifker: I can't imagine many terminal emulators would have that enabled ever.
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• 36[00:34:19] <ectospasm> But you can do it with the tmux command send-keys to an arbitrary session/window/pane in tmux.
• 37[00:35:20] <ectospasm> What you send could be arbitrary, and would depend on what you have running in the session/window/pane.
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• 42[00:45:14] <Wally> Can someone please tell me which package the qt sql drivers are in? ( I need sqlite)
• 43[00:45:30] <tgunr> ectospasm, nftables is not a wrapper for iptables
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• 46[00:46:15] <ectospasm> tgunr: I know, but there is a compatibility layer to ease the transition from iptables to nft
• 47[00:46:31] <tgunr> `nft list ruleset -a' to see rules
• 48[00:46:42] <ectospasm> thank you
• 49[00:46:58] <ectospasm> I glanced at the nft man page and I didn't get that deep into it.
• 50[00:47:31] <tgunr> been using nftables for a few years now, have forgotten how to use iptables :)
• 51[00:48:05] <ectospasm> hmmm, is its <ruleset>? I get an error with ruleset.
• 52[00:48:28] <ectospasm> Is there a way to list just the ruleset names/titles?
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• 57[00:50:47] <tgunr> try `nft list ruleset'
• 58[00:53:30] <tgunr> `nft list tables`
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• 64[00:57:27] <ectospasm> Ahh, I see. I see my rules in both `iptables --list` and `nft -a list ruleset`. Which makes sense, the userspace `iptables` and `nft` are merely to interfaces to manage the kernel Netfilter subsystem.
• 65[00:57:33] <ectospasm> I guess tgunr left.
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• 123[02:11:11] <synaps3> is there an easy way to make installer from my current debian setup ?
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• 126[02:19:24] <Gramcor> when is the new debian release scheduled for?
• 127[02:19:43] <Gramcor> bullseye i mean
• 128[02:20:18] <alex11> no hard date; when it's ready
• 129[02:20:21] <alex11> maybe julyishh
• 130[02:20:22] <alex11> ish*
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• 133[02:21:35] <alex11> replaced-url
• 134[02:22:04] <Gramcor> alex oh so this year
• 135[02:22:05] <Gramcor> ok cool
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• 137[02:22:37] <Gramcor> also in general is it possible to update from one version of debian to the next? or you just download and reinstall?
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• 140[02:23:27] <synaps3> alex11, i asked wrongly, i have debian setup the way i like now i wanna "freeze" my current setup and make installable iso from it
• 141[02:23:55] <synaps3> like a custom debian derivative
• 142[02:24:12] <synaps3> i'm not finding any easy to follow resources online
• 143[02:25:00] <Gramcor> synaps3, mx-linux a debian derivative has a tool for this job, it takes a snapshot and build you an iso of your current system
• 144[02:25:08] <Gramcor> i think it works for vanilla debian also
• 145[02:25:16] <Gramcor> take it from their github or something
• 146[02:25:27] <Gramcor> or from their repo with apt
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• 150[02:27:00] <Gramcor> google mx-linux iso-snapshot
• 151[02:27:35] <synaps3> JUST TO CLARIFY, this program is meant for MX Linux and antiX it won't work on another other system without considerable modifications because other systems don't have the infrastructure needed to run this program. Don't try to install the deb it won't work and might ruin your system.
• 152[02:27:42] <synaps3> ^ Gramcor
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• 154[02:28:19] <Gramcor> synaps3, well that sucks
• 155[02:28:59] <synaps3> i heard, here or other channel, that there is some tool that makes that extremely easy
• 156[02:29:09] <synaps3> i'd honstly like to have custom debian derivatve for me
• 157[02:29:34] <Gramcor> you know you can do the same, but without it being an iso
• 158[02:29:43] <Gramcor> you can make a tarball of your system
• 159[02:30:21] <Gramcor> thats the way i install gentoo with, boot livecd, make partitions + filesystems, mount partitions, extract the tarball, install grub bootloader
• 160[02:30:32] <Gramcor> system ready, and i can use my own tarball the modified one
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• 162[02:30:59] <Gramcor> an iso just does those things essentially
• 163[02:32:03] <alex11> there's preseeding, synaps3
• 164[02:32:09] <alex11> let me see if i can find some resources
• 165[02:32:17] <alex11> well, hmm
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• 167[02:32:31] <Gramcor> the other option is to use the debian tool that generates isos
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• 169[02:32:37] <alex11> preseeding or a mixture of backups + dpkg --get-selections
• 170[02:32:52] <alex11> replaced-url
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• 173[02:34:34] <alex11> replaced-url
• 174[02:36:12] <synaps3> this preeseding looks good
• 175[02:36:25] <synaps3> basically you script your install commands to add new stuff
• 176[02:36:29] <synaps3> am i right
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• 178[02:40:12] <foxide> Not really.
• 179[02:40:33] <foxide> It's basically to automate the install itself.
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• 264[04:24:34] <plantian> I'm trying to transition to Debian from Gentoo.  Off and on I have tried webchat through Chromium but it times out so fast it kind of defeats the purpose of trying to use freenode.  A long long time ago I used pidgin, is that still ok or are people using weechat or is there a better way to connect to freenode?  Thanks.
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• 267[04:26:56] <JackFrost> For graphical, some seem to like Hexchat if on a GTK desktop.
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• 282[04:42:22] <plantian> @JackFrost I'm using XFCE right now, I'll check hexchat out, thanks.
• 283[04:44:35] <JackFrost> Nice, so am I.
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• 286[04:45:22] * remline is chatting in hexchat + xfce right now
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• 289[04:48:44] <plant-ian> JackFrost, I think it works!
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• 296[04:53:23] <slidesinger-ss> I have been trying and trying all sorts of things to get the display for my new desktop to work in a usable format and I just cannot seem to get there. What I have tried successfully:
• 297[04:53:39] <slidesinger-ss> Enlarged the fonts for grub.
• 298[04:53:49] <slidesinger-ss> Enlarged the fonts for the console.
• 299[04:54:00] <slidesinger-ss> All that is readable nicely.
• 300[04:54:27] <slidesinger-ss> Installed slick-greeter for lightdm, now lightdm is readable.
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• 311[04:58:58] <slidesinger-ss> openbox remains a problem in that some windows seem to look exactly as they should while others remain teeny-tiny no matter what I do. I have changed the dpi setting using xrandr, which seems to only affect some of the programs while others remain unreadable. When I try simply reducing the resolution the problem goes the other way, with some apps readable and others just huge. Further, I have been unable to find any documenta
• 312[04:58:58] <slidesinger-ss> works. Has anyone successfully done this and maybe has some ideas of what I've missed?
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• 373[06:28:26] <beelzebuzz> slidesinger-ss: kind of vague. are you using a mix of qt and gtk apps?
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• 424[08:16:25] <Sieg_Heil> oops
• 425[08:16:30] <Sieg_Heil> i crapped my pants
• 426[08:16:44] <Sieg_Heil> eh, whatever
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• 533[11:15:39] <ratrace> yay for inetutils update! TotallyNotEveryonesWasteOfTime(tm)
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• 537[11:17:36] <joze> you are an inetutils dev?
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• 551[11:34:40] <ratrace> also, buster 10.8 point release update is coming up today.
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• 562[11:41:24] <Lope> what does one use apt-utils for?
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• 565[11:41:39] <Lope> could it have been installed for installing dkms stuff perhaps?
• 566[11:41:48] <Lope> or maybe compiling packages from source?
• 567[11:42:01] <Lope> just wondering why I have it and if I need to install it on my new install
• 568[11:42:10] <ratrace> rnu dpkg -L apt-utils
• 569[11:42:12] <ratrace> *run
• 570[11:42:54] <Lope> ratrace, hey bud :) and then?
• 571[11:43:07] <ratrace> it shows you the files in it. using any of them?
• 572[11:43:59] <Lope> replaced-url
• 573[11:44:18] <ratrace> I know what's in it. I'm asking if you're using any of the bins
• 574[11:44:55] <Lope> not that I'm aware of?
• 575[11:45:01] <Lope> Looks like a bunch of really random shit
• 576[11:45:21] <Lope> except /usr/share/man
• 577[11:45:26] <Lope> that looks rather important?
• 578[11:45:32] <Lope> is that for reading manpages hehe?
• 579[11:45:38] <ratrace> seems to be a leaf package, but priority=important. I'd let it be
• 580[11:45:45] <Lope> alrighty
• 581[11:46:01] <ratrace> it doesn't install man(1), just manpages for the tools it brings
• 582[11:46:02] <Lope> well, I won't explicitly install it, but won't remove it either.
• 583[11:46:10] <Lope> ah, I see.
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• 586[11:50:29] <ratrace> eek, grub-pc now showing upgrade errors I haven't seen before (zpool rootfs atop of luks). let's reboot, yolo
• 587[11:52:46] <Lope> haha zfs, living on the edge.
• 588[11:53:08] <ratrace> ... comes back fine. now the same on the rest of the servers lol. y'know, one of these days I'll decide that the false positives of grub errors for zpool atop of luks are too much for my sanit...
• 589[11:53:46] <ratrace> I really don't need it to scream at me about ioctl errors and inability to find root and whatnot, but not really mean it :)
• 590[11:54:49] <Lope> wow I just discovered a bad situation. Somehow I had firefox on a bullseye install, but there was no firefox package installed.
• 591[11:54:53] <Lope> So it wasn't getting updates.
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• 593[11:55:24] <ratrace> ah, the frankendebian bites back?
• 594[11:56:08] <Lope> haha this is so weird. I installed the firefox package on it now. Now I have 2 firefox's in my programs menu, the one is version 78, the other is 85 lol!
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• 596[11:56:55] <ratrace> goo luck exchanging settings between them. iirc it requires cloud sync something something account.
• 597[11:57:01] <ratrace> "good" even.
• 598[11:57:29] <ratrace> in fact, it's gonna scream bloody gore if you run them with shared ~/.mozilla/
• 599[11:57:43] <jelly> they probably use the same local profiles, yes
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• 601[11:59:27] <ratrace> I really don't understand why it doesn't support upgrade at least, if you're switching from ESR to (newer) non-ESR. it refuses to reuse ~/.mozilla/ profile
• 602[11:59:40] <Lope> They're definitely different profiles.
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• 604[11:59:47] <Lope> the old one has plugins and bookmarks etc
• 605[11:59:56] <Lope> the new one has nothing
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• 608[12:00:46] <Lope> Okay I htopped them
• 609[12:01:04] <Lope> I've got /usr/lib/firefox/firefox and /usr/lib/firefox-esr/firefox-esr
• 610[12:01:41] <jelly> that's good and they're supposed to be coinstallable
• 611[12:01:47] <Lope> so the firefox package is /usr/lib/firefox/firefox
• 612[12:01:56] <Lope> oh, interesting
• 613[12:02:04] <Lope> well they definitely are!
• 614[12:02:30] <Lope> I'm not really into sync features of browsers.
• 615[12:02:33] <jelly> it would be nice if the icon said Firefox ESR for the ESR, or Firefox Release for Firefox, but eh
• 616[12:02:40] <Lope> I'll see if I can export and import the plugins.
• 617[12:03:14] <Lope> jelly, the icons actually do say Firefox and Firefox ESR respectively.
• 618[12:03:28] <Lope> oh I think I know what happened...
• 619[12:03:36] <ratrace> the graphics do, or the text under the icons?
• 620[12:03:55] <jelly> replaced-url
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• 622[12:04:11] <jelly> Lope, good!
• 623[12:04:12] <Lope> okay, no, I've got no clue what happened. I see bullseye has a firefox-esr package available.
• 624[12:04:25] <ratrace> ,v firefox-esr
• 625[12:04:26] <judd> Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 78.5.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-proposed-updates: 78.7.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: 78.7.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye:
• 626[12:04:27] <judd> 78.7.0esr-1; sid: 78.7.0esr-1
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• 628[12:04:58] <Lope> oh my word I'm just being retarded. It turns out I had firefox-esr installed the whole time.
• 629[12:05:08] <Lope> Problem was that I was in the wrong terminal aaaaaah!
• 630[12:05:10] <Lope> hahaha
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• 632[12:05:20] <Lope> *cry laughing emoji*
• 633[12:06:08] <ratrace> what a terrible explanation of what at supercookie is
• 634[12:06:21] <jelly> 😂 or 😭?
• 635[12:06:36] <Lope> well, since my firefox-esr is getting updates I can just let it be. I'd prefer the newer version, but can't be bothered to move the stuff over.
• 636[12:06:45] <Lope> bookmarks and addons etc.
• 637[12:07:04] <ratrace> porque no los dos
• 638[12:07:06] <Lope> u reckon I can't just tell it to load the profile from the old version?
• 639[12:07:28] <Lope> jelly, how do you do emojis in hexchat?
• 640[12:07:58] <jelly> they're just text.
• 641[12:08:22] <jelly> (I cheat and usually copy/paste from web)
• 642[12:08:23] <Lope> On telegram you can type :star: or whatever
• 643[12:08:40] <ratrace> Lope: firefox --profile-manager
• 644[12:08:41] <Lope> but as soon as you type :sta it already shows you options
• 645[12:08:55] <ratrace> eh.... --ProfileManager
• 646[12:09:12] <Lope> ratrace, but what about the warnings you guys were saying about not being able to slap an old profile on a new version of FF?
• 647[12:09:22] <ratrace> wth .... the options mix --CamelCase and --usual-nix-opts and --WTF_ARE_ALL_CAPS_OPTS
• 648[12:09:29] <Lope> I used to always do that sort of thing. and firefox just figured it out.
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• 650[12:09:50] <ratrace> you can almost see the lead devs change over time, as the new lead dev comes with the new options case pattern
• 651[12:09:53] <Lope> yeah commandline options on linux are an abomination.
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• 653[12:10:02] <ratrace> not on linux ... this is firefox only
• 654[12:10:19] <ratrace> never seen this anywhere else. except a few tools that do -whole -words -with -single -dash
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• 657[12:11:03] <azeem> maybe the group it by user-facing (CamelCase) and dev-facing (other), but yeah
• 658[12:11:04] <Lope> foo -v; foo2 --version; foo3 -version; foo version; foo4 option bar; foo5 --option=bar; foo6 -option bar etc etc etc etc etc
• 659[12:11:05] <ratrace> Lope: I thought you wanted to migrate the profile from one ESR to another? because yeah, you can't reuse the ESR profile in non-ESR firefox, nor the other way around
• 660[12:11:10] <azeem> they group*
• 661[12:11:38] <Lope> ratrace, oh, well I do, I see. thanks for letting me know that firefox and firefox ESR use incompatible profile formats.
• 662[12:12:07] <ratrace> azeem: you know what's funny? the opts are actually case insensitive. it's just the --help text
• 663[12:12:14] <azeem> heh
• 664[12:12:25] <ratrace> dunno what's worse
• 665[12:12:25] <Lope> I don't GAF how options are done on linux, I just wish there was one standard and all programs followed it.
• 666[12:12:44] <Lope> You know what would be cool... a distro that makes wrappers for all programs so that their options follow one standard.
• 667[12:12:46] <azeem> Lope: did you ever have to herd cats?
• 668[12:13:20] <ratrace> I prefer shaving yaks, myself.
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• 670[12:13:27] <ratrace> way easier
• 671[12:13:30] <Lope> azeem, surely if the community could vote on a standard, then from then on all maintainers must adjust to the standard?
• 672[12:13:57] <ratrace> "community could vote" is the cat herding mentioned above
• 673[12:14:04] <azeem> I don't think you have a full grasp what "the community", "a standard" and "all maintainers must" entail
• 674[12:14:19] <Lope> haha, well apt is a standard
• 675[12:14:25] <ratrace> because out of 10 groups that disagree, will come 13.5 forks. the 0.5 was scrapped after a dev ragequit on the mailing lists two days later.
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• 677[12:14:33] <jelly> that profile thing is probably inherited from Netscape.
• 678[12:14:39] <azeem> unless you suggest Debian patches all upstream projects to follow one CLI standard, which would aslo lead to madness
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• 680[12:15:31] <ratrace> the majority of options are sane .... --double-dashed-lowercase-dash-separated-words or single letter options that are mergable. -option == -o -p -t -i -o -n
• 681[12:15:44] <ratrace> any deviation from that, the vast minorty of them, could be fixed upstream.
• 682[12:16:04] <Lope> vast minority lol?
• 683[12:16:15] <ratrace> yea, very few tools deviate from that
• 684[12:16:32] <Lope> ratrace, I think equals sign is nice
• 685[12:16:36] <Lope> like --foo=bar
• 686[12:16:39] <Lope> vs --foo bar
• 687[12:16:49] <ratrace> ah yes, there's also that...
• 688[12:17:06] <jelly> also, noone cares
• 689[12:17:20] <Lope> and what about when you have a single letter equivalent of a word. I think single letter equivalents being uppercase is nice.
• 690[12:17:29] <Lope> like --foo === -F
• 691[12:17:36] * jelly keeps doing povray -benchmark
• 692[12:18:06] <Lope> do packages at least keep the same format?
• 693[12:18:09] <ratrace> isn't that \benchmark ported to *nix? :)
• 694[12:18:17] <Lope> so they don't switch from --foo one version to -foo in the next?
• 695[12:18:39] <jelly> I don't know which OS has the backslash convention
• 696[12:18:50] <ratrace> doesn't the Redmond OS?
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• 699[12:19:04] <Lope> As a community we're pretty terrible that we don't have a standard for options.
• 700[12:19:10] <jelly> DOS tools typically used /
• 701[12:19:10] <Lope> I mean text is our domain.
• 702[12:19:15] <Lope> Windows and Mac have their GUI shit
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• 704[12:19:21] <Lope> we're all about the terminal.
• 705[12:19:35] <Lope> and you can't be effective if you can't intuitively know how to type a command.
• 706[12:19:49] <Lope> because you have to always check the manual to see what it's unique quirks are.
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• 709[12:20:00] <jelly> mechanical memory beats intuition
• 710[12:20:19] <jelly> (once you have it ;-)
• 711[12:20:24] <Lope> when you don't have mechanical memory, then you need intuition though.
• 712[12:20:37] <Lope> so for those commands that you don't use often, you need it.
• 713[12:20:38] <jelly> or RTFM
• 714[12:20:39] <ratrace> jelly: that's just accepting abuse by getting used to it
• 715[12:20:47] <Lope> exactly.
• 716[12:20:58] <Lope> stockholm syndrome anyone?
• 717[12:21:10] <jelly> ratrace, that's accepting breaking things is worse than keeping backward compat
• 718[12:21:12] <ratrace> 'tis abuse alright. them windoze devs tryna be smart so the convert /optoins to -options instead of --options
• 719[12:21:26] <ratrace> jelly: POLA violations go both ways
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• 721[12:22:13] <ratrace> personally, I'm for breaking compatibility in favor of standardization and homogenity of interfaces
• 722[12:22:14] <Lope> I'm going to make a package that's so good that uses `---options=foo --YesReally OK` as arbitrary as I can contrive so that jelly has to take enough abuse to learn.
• 723[12:22:21] <jelly> freerdp went the other way, from having unix options to having rdp-compatible /options
• 724[12:22:57] <Lope> ratrace, the worst was when I hosed a drive once using ntfs clone because they put the drives in the opposite order to 99% of linux tools.
• 725[12:23:13] <ratrace> compatibility and portability are overhyped. nobody cares about them any more. people want stuff that JustWorks(tm) and works WithoutSuprises(tm). nobody cares that thy can run the single tool on AncientBSD toster that predates transistors.
• 726[12:23:14] <Lope> cos some windows dev thought the linux tool should use windows convention.
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• 730[12:24:21] <jelly> I think we agree that JustWorks(tm) and works WithoutSuprises(tm) can have clashing definitions for different people
• 731[12:24:29] <Lope> ratrace, I agree. A lot of bullshit has come in the name of portability, and just totally sucks in terms of performance etc. Stuff like Java.
• 732[12:24:35] <ratrace> like "herp derp bareplaced-url
• 733[12:24:40] <Lope> Portability is a load of horseshit in open source.
• 734[12:24:46] <Lope> Just fucking recompile, lol.
• 735[12:24:54] <jelly> so syntax of GNU find will never change
• 736[12:25:08] <ratrace> it's not about recompiling either. it's about API and ABI and lack of functionality in Other(tm) kernels, for example.
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• 738[12:25:34] <jelly> Lope, being able to recompile the same source IS what portability means.
• 739[12:25:54] <Lope> ratrace, well, the code just needs to be aware of that, so when you compile for the target it selects the appropriate code path.
• 740[12:26:11] <ratrace> Lope: can you imagine how bloated such a code would be? and who would write it? test it even?
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• 742[12:26:29] <ratrace> with systemd as an example, can you imagine whta a bucket of manure it'd be, MORE than it is today, if it were portable?
• 743[12:26:33] <Lope> well, if you want portability for machine code, you have to do that.
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• 745[12:26:38] <jelly> ratrace, yes. We use openssl everywhere.
• 746[12:26:45] <ratrace> and look what happened! :)
• 747[12:26:50] <jelly> indeed
• 748[12:27:52] <ratrace> I really can't stand portable code. Databases are my job. I write code that utilizies the BestOf(tm) PostgreSQL and I couldnt' care less about MySQL and it's lack of ACIDity.
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• 751[12:28:05] <Lope> I can't speak from experience of compiling machine code for different platforms etc. But I know that if your abstractions are good, you just make the right interfaces and then your core logic etc doesn't need to change at all to work on diff platforms.
• 752[12:28:24] <ratrace> (that's why I don't care about ORMs because they can't utilize DB specific functionality in their fullest)
• 753[12:28:41] <ratrace> Lope: negative, and the example I gave with ORMs, confirms that.
• 754[12:29:06] <ratrace> for example.... index expressions in PostgreSQL. how do you write the "right interface" for it when MySQL for example doesn't understand it?
• 755[12:29:15] <jelly> Lope, enter the fact that some parts of the code need to work _fast_ or _tiny_.
• 756[12:29:35] <Lope> ratrace, interesting, I used to use MySQL, but I've been out of SQL for years. Now I'm building an app now where I need SQL and going to use Postgres for the first time. it looks great. Looking forward to it.
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• 758[12:29:40] <jelly> those parts will need to be optimized. They will never be portable.
• 759[12:29:59] <jelly> but most, maybe 99% of the code, _can be_ and it makes things easier
• 760[12:30:45] <Lope> jelly, okay fair enough, you can have hot functions specific for each platform, and bake those in at compile time.
• 761[12:30:47] <jelly> the fact that GNU tools were highly portable is what made Linux a success
• 762[12:31:03] <Lope> But as you mentioned, it's only 1% of code that is so critical.
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• 764[12:31:18] <jelly> if you discount that you're discounting how your One Platform works
• 765[12:31:41] <jelly> and you'll have to NIH everything when the next One Platform comes up
• 766[12:31:48] <ratrace> there is no evidence to suggest linux wouldn't be a success if gnu wasn't portable
• 767[12:32:01] <jelly> there would be no Linux.
• 768[12:32:05] <jelly> at all
• 769[12:32:12] <ratrace> you can't know that
• 770[12:32:20] <jelly> yeah, that's bullshit
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• 772[12:32:58] <Lope> I'm fucking amazed that I can run the same debian distro with the same apt packages on old 32bit CPU's, 32bit arm, 64bit arm, old 64bit CPUs, new 64bit CPUs etc. There are a few gotchas, some software doesn't work on 32bit or without AVX, etc. But 99% works on all.
• 773[12:33:14] <ratrace> it's not. it's also called SlipperSlope falacy to assume that
• 774[12:33:15] <jelly> I'm not even going to present arguments.
• 775[12:33:26] <ratrace> Slippery*
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• 777[12:33:56] <Lope> The fact that you can run the same distro, same packages on an old android phone with a 3.0 or 3.1 kernel, that you're also running on a 5.10 kernel. Hell, I've even got stuff running on openvz 2.6 kernel!!!
• 778[12:34:05] <jelly> just compare how well GNU/Linux was adopted vs. ANY BSD
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• 780[12:34:24] <jelly> and how fast, and what made things easier to work
• 781[12:34:40] <ratrace> pretty sure fear of SCO had a lot to say there
• 782[12:34:45] <Lope> BSD wasn't adopted because it's head is in the sand.
• 783[12:34:57] <Lope> BSD is the most closed minded ecosystem.
• 784[12:35:05] <Lope> Can't have adoption if you're closed minded as fuck.
• 785[12:35:09] <Lope> And exclusive etc.
• 786[12:35:17] <Lope> It's really no mystery.
• 787[12:36:14] <Lope> No offence to people who like BSD. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Unless popularity is your objective. I'm sure BSD is amazing in certain respects. It must be.
• 788[12:36:49] <ratrace> it is, in licensing for example. many uses cases that don't care or want politcking, prefer the license
• 789[12:38:02] <Lope> Linux got popular anc successful cos Linus torvalds is the bomb.
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• 791[12:38:14] <Lope> Big poppa Linus/x
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• 793[12:38:28] <Lope> Every success requires a legend.
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• 795[12:39:03] <ratrace> the licenses played a huge part there. at the time, there was the SCO lawsuit, and GPL(-compatible) licenses are, in my view, generally superior.
• 796[12:39:18] <Lope> Yeah, very attractive license.
• 797[12:39:22] <Lope> L8r sk8rs
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• 799[12:39:43] <ratrace> "Yeah, no, I'm not spending my free time so IBM could exploit my work and eventually even sue ME for using what they'll claim is theirs!"
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• 807[12:57:32] <TheSilentLink> just to be sure this is normal right? N: Repository 'replaced-url
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• 809[12:58:58] <Dat> Hi anyone here using CSF?
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• 811[12:59:47] <TheSilentLink> is 10.8 out? replaced-url
• 812[13:00:18] <Mister00X> TheSilentLink: It is to be released today
• 813[13:00:35] <TheSilentLink> Mister00X: oh so that message is normal then right?
• 814[13:00:47] <Mister00X> I think so
• 815[13:01:05] <slidesinger-ss> beelzebuzz: Probably, I don't know for certain. For example, I use pidgin, firefox-esr, libreoffice, thunar, bibletime (That at least, is qt.) And it may be vague, but it is because I am uncertain, even after reading tons of pages of docs, even after learning about xrdb and xdpyinfo and discovering that xrandr does more than manage multiple displays, what questions do I ask?
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• 820[13:06:06] <slidesinger-ss> I have set the dpi to 284 everywhere that I can find and it seems to make no difference at all, except with native X apps. xft will give me nice large fonts, but the windows look all squished onto the fonts. That, at least, is readable. I cannot seem to find a 'howto' that lays everything out in a 'this is how things work' and 'this is what you do' manner.
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• 825[13:16:14] <TheSilentLink> replaced-url
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• 836[13:28:11] <ratrace> TheSilentLink: yes
• 837[13:28:36] <ratrace> and yea, 10.8 is released today
• 838[13:30:01] <TheSilentLink> any reason why the name hasn't changed? If I run uname -a I get 4.19.0-14-rpi first instead of 4.19.171-2 and some programs just read the first part! Just curious as it seems other distros update the first part too
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• 854[13:47:21] <wigums> do you have to reboot when there is an update to systemD?
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• 869[13:53:54] <jelly> !kernel abi
• 870[13:53:54] <dpkg> Debian kernel packages have an <ABI> to indicate when out-of-tree modules must be rebuilt; upgrading from a package with 3.2.0-3-amd64 to another 3.2.0-3-amd64 doesn't require fglrx/nvidia/etc to be rebuilt, but upgrading from 3.2.0-3-amd64 to 3.2.0-4-amd64 does. Development kernels intended for <experimental> have the ABI <trunk> to indicate the ABI is unmanaged. replaced-url
• 871[13:54:00] <jelly> TheSilentLink, ^
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• 889[14:08:51] <Lope> Does `tasksel install standard` include grub and a kernel?
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• 891[14:09:36] <jelly> probably not
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• 894[14:11:17] <Lope> Okay cool.
• 895[14:11:45] <joze> please don't become to ethno
• 896[14:11:59] <Lope> huh?
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• 924[14:40:20] <slidesinger-ss> PROGRESS!!! Added a 'Monitor' section to xorg.conf that contained the monitor dimensions. Now dpi is correct. From what I gather, the next piece in the puzzle is to set the xft.dpi. I have been looking for a way to do this globally as this is a multiuser box, but it seems the only way is to do it in ~.Xresources. Is there a way to have this setting be global?
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• 962[15:04:33] <foxide> So that I do not make inaccurate assumptions or misrepresentations: According to Debian website docs, all 50-odd thousand packages in "main" are within scope for security updates, correct? It's just contrib and non-free that aren't?
• 963[15:06:11] <EdePopede> after having a look at the buster installation on the other machine, started some desktop session with the different WMs/DEs i decided to stay on oldstable here for the moment.
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• 965[15:06:48] <EdePopede> old broken things still are broken, while things which work on 9 also are broken
• 966[15:07:41] <ratrace> but your logic is flawed. if some old broken things are still broken, aren't some other things better?
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• 968[15:08:24] <EdePopede> i'm just glad that killing systemd also removes all its child processes, or i would have had to kill -9 $PID around 20-30 times after logging out. guess what, killall shows no effect at all, not even when run as root.
• 969[15:08:45] <EdePopede> ratrace: broken → broken, working → broken
• 970[15:09:59] <EdePopede> one of the Wms made me even think for minutes that i wasn't logged in, though there were the usual new files in my $HOME. found out i was logged in, only the desktop bg didn't get any updates.
• 971[15:10:06] <ratrace> you're saying that things that were broken still are, and things that worked are now broken?
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• 973[15:10:41] <EdePopede> so the login box was still there. tried the context menu, started a terminal, the same. no updates when the object disappeared.
• 974[15:10:44] <EdePopede> ratrace: yep.
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• 976[15:11:05] <EdePopede> and the xdg-mime stuff is worse than ever
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• 978[15:11:37] <EdePopede> started some odd !sns player with mp4, tried hard to get mpv to handle it. even the correct command didn't work at the 1st time.
• 979[15:12:12] <EdePopede> one time even mpv appeared after i closed that other player. and i definitely only pressed Enter on a file in mc, as usual.
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• 981[15:13:08] <EdePopede> another time i had 3 instances of that player and 2 of mc running in the bg. had to C-z it because i didn't get back the prompt after starting the player as it should have happened.
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• 983[15:13:29] <EdePopede> and then ofc killall didn't work, seen it only after i did a ps
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• 986[15:14:09] <EdePopede> and then after i logged out, again systemd stayed active with about 2 dozens child processes and some more.
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• 988[15:14:46] <EdePopede> this was the first thing i realized some time ago after running the first test with xfce (it's my default DE for years now, so the natural choice)
• 989[15:15:23] <EdePopede> even that media player had a still running instance. remember, this was AFTER closing the desktop session.
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• 992[15:16:41] <EdePopede> a few times mc also wasn't able to create a subshell, something i know from tty, but not in xterm. C-o just printed ^O or someting, not even closing the player brought back the prompt.
• 993[15:17:57] <EdePopede> and then UTF8 in it is totally broken, ofc in the terminal, nothing new, but now also in xterm. iirc more than 16 colors also weren't available all the time.
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• 1000[15:20:38] <EdePopede> Cinnamon running now, looks like Gtk3 (i really hate its switches, all of it seems to be designed for mini displays with megapixels... oh, iphone?) but at least things work so far
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• 1005[15:22:44] <ratrace> crap what's the name of that effect when machines misbehave in the presence of some people.......
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• 1007[15:23:02] <EdePopede> the plan was to finally insert the ssd into this box and install buster on it but i really don't want to go through that hell another time. some of it may be configuration, but keeping so much open after logging out really looks like bananaware.
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• 1010[15:23:07] <ratrace> ... named after somoene..... early 20th century...... gaaaaah
• 1011[15:23:11] <SoundShaman> user error
• 1012[15:23:13] <SoundShaman> lol
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• 1016[15:23:51] <EdePopede> oh yeah. log in, log out, systemd with a ton of processes stays open, clear user error.
• 1017[15:24:10] <Mister00X> ratrace: Pauli-Effect
• 1018[15:24:11] <EdePopede> desktop doesn't repaint when objects disappear, clear user error.
• 1019[15:24:25] <ratrace> Mister00X: +++++++++++++++++++++
• 1020[15:24:29] <ratrace> Pauli effect.
• 1021[15:24:40] *** Quits: czesmir (~stefan@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
• 1022[15:24:48] <EdePopede> heh yes
• 1023[15:25:00] <EdePopede> finally i know what's going on all the time
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• 1026[15:25:56] <ratrace> that's surely it. cuz my Debians works peachy perfectly fine for me, and.... majority of ppl :)
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• 1029[15:26:20] <SoundShaman> yep no complaints here
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• 1031[15:27:01] <ratrace> every tiem I upgrade, something improves. whoop! whoop! nvme misbehaves? upgrade! 5.10! wham bam thank you mr. Linus. Werks now.
• 1032[15:27:45] <ratrace> unless GKH does a political backport. then it's pure garbage :)
• 1033[15:28:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1176
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• 1036[15:28:40] <EdePopede> oh. 1929 a projector stopped working while pauli was in the room. happened in my hometown.
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• 1038[15:28:59] <ratrace> EdePopede: jokes aside, could be you just have a totally unlucky combo of specific hardware and specific sofware versions
• 1039[15:29:29] <ratrace> parts of desktop not refreshing, sounds familiar, something something buggy intel
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• 1041[15:30:05] <EdePopede> ratrace: it's a used thinkcentre i bought for like 100 bucks some *cough* time ago. had 9 running on it, even live, no problems so far. it all happens with 10 now.
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• 1044[15:30:32] <EdePopede> 2nd installation i did, 1st one was minimalistic as possible, this one has everything (mostly all desktops)
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• 1046[15:31:05] <EdePopede> hm, one of the DEs has 2 entries, one of them with software rendering or sth, they may behave different then eventually
• 1047[15:31:21] *** Joins: gvth (~cell@replaced-ip)
• 1048[15:31:26] <ratrace> linux DESKTOP sucks period. distro agnostic suckage.
• 1049[15:31:38] <SoundShaman> lol
• 1050[15:31:44] <EdePopede> the "get it all" approach also showed some oddities in the cinnamon menu at least (one entry is repeated about 5 times or even more)
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• 1052[15:32:13] <ratrace> it's a huge mess of hodge podge pseudo solutions, heavily seasoned with developer egos and baked at RedHat corporate interest temperature.
• 1053[15:32:16] <asymptotically> ratrace: i downloaded some software from the people at suckless.org, and contrary to the name it made my experience suck even more!!! :'(
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• 1055[15:32:35] <EdePopede> ratrace: yep. i stopped believing into the year of the desktop long ago. everything bare metal is nice, but when it comes to this one, yikes.
• 1056[15:32:46] <ratrace> Linux is bestest software for servers and headless work. UI/UX? Mac or Windows. no competition there.
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• 1060[15:32:59] <EdePopede> windws? VETO!
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• 1062[15:33:13] *** cdown_ is now known as cdown
• 1063[15:33:16] <EdePopede> one of the reasons i totally switched to linux was redmond's suckiness
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• 1066[15:33:34] <ratrace> personally I run my (G)UIs on linux everyhwere, but I am perfectly satisfied with ten-finger interfaces, aka terminals. I'm not a deformed mutant who has only one finger and has to poke things around with it, like mouse wants you to be.
• 1067[15:33:45] <EdePopede> they had some good things, but it's mostly bload now. Gnome without a Linux Kernel :P
• 1068[15:34:12] <ratrace> termnals, i3-wm to line 'em up, and of really G(UI) apps I run FF, pycharm and occasionally localc to do some shi^W sheets, or lowriter.
• 1069[15:34:34] <ratrace> my pdf viewer is terminal based zathura. my file mangers is ranger. my media players are cmus and mpv.
• 1070[15:34:37] <gvth> Hi, sorry, my question is not Debian specific but I do not know at the moment where to ask. What free/libre music song would you recommend to test the quality of audio speakers? It should, of course, cover most, if not all, the major note/ tone pitches.
• 1071[15:34:46] <EdePopede> i always had my postinstalls. windows: SVGA → Total Commander → Irfan → Firefox. linux at least mc (debian is missing it even on live!)
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• 1073[15:35:02] <n4dir> funny enough i usually consider the GUI in Windows and Macs to be outstanding awkward
• 1074[15:35:52] <ratrace> n4dir: and yet linuxy GUIs are nothing but copies of Windows and Mac paradigms.
• 1075[15:36:04] <ratrace> there's ZERO invention in the *nix GUI ecosystem.
• 1076[15:36:05] <foxide> Yup.
• 1077[15:36:15] <EdePopede> windwos had 2 really good points in the past: no Alt+Letter for hotkeys. Everything should work via mouse OR menu OR button O keyboard.
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• 1079[15:36:25] <n4dir> several desktops is or rather was a thing in Windows or Mac?
• 1080[15:36:53] <n4dir> wobbly windows. ha ha ha. Who would want to miss that
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• 1082[15:37:11] <EdePopede> ratrace: it was better in the beginning. how long did it take for windows to finally have more than one desktop? or apple to allow window size changes on all corners? ;)
• 1083[15:37:53] <n4dir> alone being able to choose between all kind of DE's or WM's is a big plus in my book
• 1084[15:38:08] <SoundShaman> yep
• 1085[15:38:10] <ratrace> EdePopede: yes but those paradigms predate linux
• 1086[15:38:11] <foxide> Every de is the damn same
• 1087[15:38:11] <SoundShaman> me too
• 1088[15:38:25] <foxide> Its just different visual elements and themes. The paradigms are the same.
• 1089[15:38:32] <EdePopede> user choice. users don't only have different WISHES, but (and that's even more important) different NEEDS.
• 1090[15:38:34] <ratrace> foxide: right.
• 1091[15:38:47] <SoundShaman> well yeah that's true foxide
• 1092[15:38:53] <foxide> So, sure, you have a choice of... which toolkit you want to use to generate the SAME INTERFACE.
• 1093[15:39:08] <n4dir> the plan 9 interface was sure weird, or: interesting. Depending how you look at it
• 1094[15:39:32] <foxide> The only thing "new" was gnome 3, and look at the response it got.
• 1095[15:39:56] <EdePopede> it's mostly a horrible waste of space every time i see it somewhere
• 1096[15:40:12] <EdePopede> [X] is all it needs
• 1097[15:40:22] <n4dir> and the paradigm of the Windows interface changed at minimun 20 times the last 20 years, right?
• 1098[15:40:26] <wsky> go to hell
• 1099[15:40:35] <EdePopede> instead they have something to move around, 3 times the height of the text
• 1100[15:40:51] <foxide> n4dir: It's had the same UI paradigm since Windows 95.
• 1101[15:40:59] <foxide> What ARE you talking about?
• 1102[15:41:03] <EdePopede> srsly, is gnome3 something mobile?
• 1103[15:41:22] *** Quits: Bjornn (~Bjornn@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
• 1104[15:41:33] <ratrace> gnome 4.0 is marketing migration of the taskbar to bottom as something super evolutionary. like.... huh, Mac had it for ages, and Unity (and later gnome extensions) were there on linux for years
• 1105[15:41:34] *** Quits: ml| (~ml|@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
• 1106[15:41:57] <n4dir> i am talking about no matter how you look at it, you sure have much more choice how you want your GUI to look like in LInux, BSD, so on, than in Windows or Mac
• 1107[15:41:57] *** Quits: Nokaji (~Nokaji@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
• 1108[15:42:15] <n4dir> and even if you stick to one solution only, the ways you can configure it are still much more
• 1109[15:42:30] <wsky> why are germans so hostile to me
• 1110[15:42:32] <wsky> this is wrong
• 1111[15:42:37] <ratrace> n4dir: are you talking about theming?
• 1112[15:42:37] <EdePopede> windows only had 2 different themes iirc, even using a different color scheme was something you had to pay for or not?
• 1113[15:42:39] <foxide> Okay, but you REALLY don't. So... You do you, but this is an intellectually dishonest representation of the state of desktops on Linux.
• 1114[15:42:44] <n4dir> ratrace: of course not
• 1115[15:42:45] <wsky> they just want to see me humiliated
• 1116[15:42:45] <foxide> EdePopede: No?
• 1117[15:43:06] <EdePopede> foxide: there must have been a reason for windowblinds
• 1118[15:43:21] <EdePopede> i remember something silverish
• 1119[15:43:22] <foxide> EdePopede: Additional window decorations and interactions and such. Not theming, though.
• 1120[15:43:34] <foxide> Windowblinds added additional functionality.
• 1121[15:43:51] <EdePopede> had some nice tweaks, only i can barely remember what it did
• 1122[15:44:01] <foxide> And that wasn't even from MS. That was from Stardock, iirc
• 1123[15:44:45] <foxide> n4dir: You'
• 1124[15:44:57] <foxide> re not arguing from a position of facts, here. You're arguing from a position of "MS is bad, mkay?"
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• 1126[15:45:18] <foxide> Which... they largely ARE... but that has no bearing on technical aspects of this discussion.
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• 1128[15:45:41] <n4dir> i never said Windows was bad. Nor Mac. All i say is that to me if anything than the GUI's of both feel very awkard
• 1129[15:45:43] <foxide> And I've gone suuuuper off-topic here, so I'm gonna bow out.
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• 1131[15:46:03] <ratrace> foxide: the discussed software runs on Debian :)
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• 1133[15:46:34] <EdePopede> anyway, looking at all the DE/WMs was something i wanted to do for long now, but this experience (BINGO!) was really frustrating.
• 1134[15:46:41] <ratrace> and the support question is how to make upgrades improve the experience :) :innocent_emoji_something_something.jpg
• 1135[15:47:04] <n4dir> EdePopede: gnome?
• 1136[15:47:19] <EdePopede> ratrace: i didn't even upgrade (never did btw, always clean installs usually together with new partitioning), still meh :(
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• 1138[15:48:14] <EdePopede> n4dir: xfce first, then lxqt, then openbox, now cinnamon. and now i'm running some video, at least this time the change whatever→mpv worked as expected.
• 1139[15:48:23] <EdePopede> i really need some relaxation now
• 1140[15:48:39] <n4dir> don't forget e17
• 1141[15:48:51] <n4dir> at least it will keep you busy ...
• 1142[15:49:08] <EdePopede> tried to avoid everything gtk first (xfce just because i'm using it for years), and some of the entries are a bit confusing.
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• 1144[15:49:23] <ratrace> EdePopede: I used to use GNOME and KDE and XFCE extensively in the past. The general DE paradigms (OS agnostic) really disappointed me. So many things is implicit, automagic, so many different use cases want to be covered at the same time. I don't like that one bit.
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• 1146[15:49:31] <EdePopede> n4dir: only "basic" installation so far, but with all DEs offered ;)
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• 1148[15:50:02] <wsky> go to hell
• 1149[15:50:21] <ratrace> the straw that broke the camel's back for me was when I realized GNOME has more and more various processes running "just in case something's needed"...
• 1150[15:50:22] <EdePopede> ratrace: generally i don't want anything "smart", that's mostly "we'll preselect something for you"
• 1151[15:50:24] <wsky> why some germans just want to see us humiliated
• 1152[15:50:41] *** Quits: KOJIbKA (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Quit: KOJIbKA)
• 1153[15:50:52] <wsky> sadism
• 1154[15:50:55] <n4dir> Well, no matter which DE or WM i use, i make it quickly do the 5 things i need, and then am done with it. So to me they don't need much. But those 5 things they should do
• 1155[15:50:57] *** Quits: szorfein (~daggoth@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
• 1156[15:50:57] <EdePopede> ratrace: yep. just wait until i have the ps output on this box, i'll paste it then ;)
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• 1158[15:51:07] <ratrace> Nothanks(tm). seen it :)
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• 1162[15:52:12] <EdePopede> i'm not even sure if i really want a DE in the future. most of what the panel holds can go $somewhere. but i also don't want to go back to icon docks.
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• 1166[15:52:45] <n4dir> panel and icon docks for what?
• 1167[15:52:56] *** Quits: galex-713 (~quassel@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
• 1168[15:52:57] <ratrace> The "Bad Taste" vulnerability was the only time in my 15+ y history if linuxing (20+ y history of *nix'ing) when I actually thought I was infected and did a nuke&pave my system. This was caused by that very same automagic.
• 1169[15:53:14] <EdePopede> M-F1 opens the menu, C-Esc opens the window list (similar to win3 task manager, i really don't like its new incarnations) and such
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• 1171[15:53:39] <n4dir> menu is the apps menu?
• 1172[15:54:03] <EdePopede> n4dir: icon docks as in fvwm and uh... i can't remember the names. there was one wm with square buttons with triangles on their corners.
• 1173[15:54:07] <EdePopede> n4dir: yep
• 1174[15:54:26] <n4dir> to me fbrun or gmrun or whatever command-prompt is there is more comfortable
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• 1176[15:54:53] <ratrace> (and I thought that because at the time I had to review a lot of doc files from (windows using) clients, and I had wine installed.... you know that moment when you shudder, in cold sweat, as you realize the code paths for that malware are right there, all conditions favorable)
• 1177[15:55:18] <EdePopede> i don't even use the calendar, just had to replace xfce's default clock because broken. conky would to the job. same for most of the things just displaying some info, actions could be bound to hotkeys i guess.
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• 1180[15:56:21] <n4dir> besides the systray i got no idea what a panel might be good for.
• 1181[15:56:38] <ratrace> quickstart icons! :)
• 1182[15:56:48] <n4dir> ha ha. Yeah, i guess so
• 1183[15:57:27] <EdePopede> hm.hm.hm. some dialog with such icons bound to a hotkey....
• 1184[15:58:11] <n4dir> not saying Win or Mac can't do it the way i prefer to do it. Only i can't figure it out.
• 1185[15:58:24] <EdePopede> what i like is the desktop preview and what i need is the nm-applet (just can't remember how to do it w/o it just in case)
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• 1187[15:58:27] <n4dir> and i think they can't do it, but am open to bein corrected
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• 1190[16:00:21] <EdePopede> i had a reserved area at the left or right border for some time, conky space. sysinfo, calendar, todo list, some more. as small as possible, 6px font for the calendar, then 7*3+2 columns (hint: week numbers).
• 1191[16:00:45] <wsky> EdePopede: you will regret your ideas
• 1192[16:00:55] <wsky> i assure you of that
• 1193[16:01:27] <EdePopede> wsky: i did already. could have stayed in irc instead of preparing the migration.
• 1194[16:01:45] <wsky> you twisted sadist
• 1195[16:01:46] *** Joins: galex-713 (~quassel@replaced-ip)
• 1196[16:02:05] <EdePopede> you shouted madist
• 1197[16:02:06] <EdePopede> :D
• 1198[16:02:12] <EdePopede> guess the song!
• 1199[16:02:24] <wsky> the swan song
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• 1226[16:18:40] <NetTerminalGene> this page doesn't work replaced-url
• 1227[16:18:50] <NetTerminalGene> 10.8 update page
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• 1230[16:21:45] <jackal> hey all, mind if i ask question probably not related to debian itself?
• 1231[16:22:40] <NetTerminalGene> jackal: yes
• 1232[16:22:51] <NetTerminalGene> jackal: i mean, ask
• 1233[16:23:21] <EdePopede> NetTerminalGene: where is it linked?
• 1234[16:23:41] <NetTerminalGene> EdePopede: main page
• 1235[16:23:52] <jackal> i have an alias defined in /etc/bash.bashrc. but why 'su -c <alias>' doesnt work?
• 1236[16:24:09] <EdePopede> NetTerminalGene: oh.
• 1237[16:24:20] <NetTerminalGene> the link is in main page
• 1238[16:24:38] <EdePopede> jackal: alias is a shell (bash?) internal thing.
• 1239[16:25:01] <jackal> ok
• 1240[16:26:41] <jackal> EdePopede, so?
• 1241[16:27:02] <EdePopede> jackal: what command would be exexuted?
• 1242[16:27:16] <jackal> apt
• 1243[16:27:39] <EdePopede> no, the alias
• 1244[16:27:49] <EdePopede> the name you're using after -c
• 1245[16:28:08] <jackal> update
• 1246[16:28:29] <EdePopede> ,file bin/update
• 1247[16:28:34] <judd> Search for bin/update in buster/amd64: wims: usr/lib/wims/bin/update; mailman: usr/lib/mailman/bin/update
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• 1249[16:28:48] <EdePopede> see, nothing you'd usually have in $PATH
• 1250[16:29:24] <jackal> huh?
• 1251[16:29:27] <EdePopede> if you want something special for some command you want to start like this, better use a wrapper script.
• 1252[16:29:46] <jackal> how $PATH is relevant here?
• 1253[16:29:49] <n4dir> why not put the alias in /root/.bashrc? Would that work?
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• 1255[16:30:03] <jackal> n4dir, hows that any more powerful than /etc?
• 1256[16:30:05] <EdePopede> only a running shell with that alias in its own environment can know about your `update`
• 1257[16:30:13] <n4dir> jackal: try it and see.
• 1258[16:30:39] <jackal> n4dir, if it does, it would bring a lot more questions :)
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• 1261[16:31:00] <n4dir> for starters usually systemwide configs should be avoided to edit.
• 1262[16:31:15] <n4dir> say a package gets an update, you configs go bye-bye.
• 1263[16:31:17] <jackal> EdePopede, that alias isnt in my env at all
• 1264[16:31:25] <jackal> n4dir, aware
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• 1267[16:33:14] <EdePopede> jackal: `alias > $file` right after defining it should tell you if it is available as expected
• 1268[16:33:33] <ratrace> NetTerminalGene: WorksForMe(tm) tried again?
• 1269[16:33:59] <EdePopede> heh
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• 1271[16:34:45] <lusrx> tzf: did you get past the "guru meditation" in vbox?
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• 1277[16:37:58] <n4dir> jackal: though speaking about sudo, i think this page has the explanation (including a link to alias part of the bash manual): replaced-url
• 1278[16:40:10] <jackal> n4dir, have that defined already
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• 1280[16:40:46] <n4dir> as far i can tell putting an alias: alias yada='su -c "echo yadda"' ; in the users bashrc should work too.
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• 1283[16:42:17] <EdePopede> though echo is maybe not the best example because /bin/echo ;)
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• 1285[16:43:16] <n4dir> as long yada isn't. no?
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• 1297[16:51:13] <GNU\colossus> upgrading to Debian testing broke my "open to all clients on my LAN without auth"-config in smbd... can anyone of you make sense of what is going on? replaced-url
• 1298[16:52:34] <tzf> lusrx, have i pasted it here ???
• 1299[16:53:12] <tzf> lusrx and yes i am in such trouble
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• 1301[16:54:58] <tzf> lusrx, sorry i actually do not fully get you
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• 1309[16:58:42] <tzf> lusrx? i am wondering how can you that i get that issue.....
• 1310[16:58:53] <tzf> how can you know?
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• 1312[16:59:33] <foxide> GNU\colossus: I believe that once you upgrade to testing, you need to go to a different IRC server and channel for support.
• 1313[16:59:35] <foxide> !testing
• 1314[16:59:35] <dpkg> Testing is a continuously updated release between <stable> and <unstable>, currently codenamed <bullseye>. See replaced-url
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• 1316[17:01:02] <tzf> by the way, lusrx, I am on Debian Sid, what is not appropiate to treat here isn't it, but at #debian-next...
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• 1325[17:09:27] <foxide> #debian-next on OFTC, NOT on Freenode.
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• 1327[17:09:55] <tzf> yes
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• 1344[17:17:38] <GNU\colossus> foxide, thanks. I was just wondering if anyone in here had seen this and made sense of it previously :)
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• 1359[17:31:41] <tzf> lusrx, spotted !!! hehe
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• 1386[18:01:04] <GNU\colossus> solution to my samba problem from before: I needed to have the "guest account" option set to the UNIX account that has write permission on all these directory inodes
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• 1509[19:37:59] <zerocool> i feel like my nvme drives are changing names... is that possible these days?
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• 1512[19:38:48] <zerocool> like sometimes when I boot / and all that are on /dev/nvme0n1 and sometimes it's on /dev/nvme1n1
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• 1515[19:40:24] <foxide> Can be, depending on how your firmware initializes things. That's why you should use UUIDs and not device paths.
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• 1517[19:41:38] <zerocool> foxide: i do but some things like libvirt, if i give a vm a raw device... i wonder if I can target the device by id
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• 1519[19:41:51] <zerocool> by i do i mean I do in /etc/fstab
• 1520[19:42:22] <foxide> Oh, that makes sense.
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• 1524[19:44:34] <foxide> I wonder if you're able to use a /dev/by-id device path.
• 1525[19:44:52] <zerocool> yeah exactly, that's what im thinking
• 1526[19:45:55] <zerocool> i guess i just thought they couldn't changed. like why we have enp0s1 vs eth0
• 1527[19:46:04] <foxide> /dev/nvme0 is like /dev/sda
• 1528[19:46:09] <foxide> I think the ordering is firmware-dependent.
• 1529[19:46:17] <zerocool> hmm, well that makes sense
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• 1531[19:46:44] <foxide> So if you have a WWN-based device node available within /dev/by-id, that will be more reliable since those aren't firmware-dependent.
• 1532[19:47:10] <zerocool> im not saying a /dev/by-id :(
• 1533[19:47:12] <zerocool> debian 10
• 1534[19:47:21] <zerocool> seeing*
• 1535[19:48:28] <foxide> /dev/disk/by-id
• 1536[19:48:33] <foxide> or by uuid or something else.
• 1537[19:48:43] <zerocool> thank you foxide!
• 1538[19:49:08] <foxide> /dev/disk/by-id will always, ALWAYS, point to the same device.
• 1539[19:49:12] <foxide> Sure thing!
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• 1586[20:27:12] <dagb> good evening. trying to boot the buster installer on a UEFI laptop with a 1600x900 display. screen comes up corrupted. what kernel parameters can I provide in syslinux to make it boot with a legible console?
• 1587[20:28:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1193
• 1588[20:29:42] <oxek> dagb: are you using the text installer or graphical installer?
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• 1590[20:30:57] <dagb> I tried the text installer. But I do think the graphical installer comes up the same way? May have to recheck. Would prefer the text-installer.
• 1591[20:31:04] <dagb> oxek: ^
• 1592[20:31:38] <dagb> does the installer kernel have support for efifb?
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• 1594[20:32:28] <dagb> I did try modifying the kernel parameters to add 'video=efifb' but no luck
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• 1596[20:33:13] <foxide> Sure thing!
• 1597[20:33:26] <dagb> assuming editing the options in syslinux and hitting f10 actually takes the modified options into consideration
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• 1599[20:33:43] <foxide> oops, command recall
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• 1602[20:36:13] <oxek> dagb: the other thing I'd try is installing from the unofficial image that contains non-free firmware
• 1603[20:38:47] <dagb> oxek: may have to try that.
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• 1650[21:14:45] <oxek> ,v spek
• 1651[21:14:46] <judd> Package: spek on amd64 -- jessie: 0.8.2-3.2+b1; stretch: 0.8.2-4+b2; buster: 0.8.2-4+b3; stretch-multimedia: 0.8.3-dmo11; buster-multimedia: 0.8.3-dmo12; bullseye-multimedia: 0.8.3-dmo13; sid-multimedia: 0.8.3-dmo13
• 1652[21:15:10] *** Parts: nickodd (~nickodd@replaced-ip) ()
• 1653[21:15:16] <oxek> I see spek has been removed from bullseye. What are my options if I want to keep using it once bullseye hits stable?
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• 1655[21:15:34] <sney> ,bug rm spek
• 1656[21:15:36] <judd> Bug replaced-url
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• 1658[21:16:02] <sney> use it from dmo or compile yourself, assuming the build deps are available
• 1659[21:16:21] <oxek> I've been advised against dmo before
• 1660[21:16:46] <sney> with good reason, but you can install 1 package from there and then disable it
• 1661[21:17:55] <oxek> I'd of course prefer for the package to be reintroduced into debian proper, but I understand lack of maintainer interest (it is a very niche software). This workaround should work. Thanks.
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• 1688[21:45:21] <jelly> package it yourself?
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• 1720[22:28:10] <hansh> on debian 10 when starting mousepad as root and press view->linenumbers, no line numbers are visible, furthermore upon restarting mousepad, it forgot that you tried to enable line numbers, at leas that's what happens to me
• 1721[22:29:46] <hansh> huh, apparently happens because i don't have "dbus-x11" installed, guess that's a missing dependency for mousepad?
• 1722[22:29:56] <hansh> (have a minimal-ish debian system)
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• 1724[22:30:32] <hansh> anyway installing dbus-x11 fixed it (but that probably means dbus-x11 should have been a dependency, at least a recommended, but isn't)
• 1725[22:30:46] <beelzebuzz> hansh: run it from console and observe the many errors. some gconf/dconf stuff doesn't run properly from sudo or whatever due to dbus
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• 1727[22:31:20] <hansh> (mousepad:8258): dconf-WARNING **: 16:28:25.668: failed to commit changes to dconf: Failed to execute child process \u201cdbus-launch\u201d (No such file or directory)
• 1728[22:31:38] <hansh> was the error it saw spewing before i installed dbus-x11 and tried to enable linenumbers
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• 1742[22:49:03] <hansh> is debian really backporting all the security-related fixes between php-7.3.19 and 7.3.27 instead of just updating to upstream 7.3.27 ?
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• 1744[22:52:11] <azeem> hansh: probably, are there any non-bugfix changes between 7.3.19 and 7.3.27?
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• 1747[22:53:09] <hansh> yes, > CVE-2020-7071 fixed in 20.3.26: bug #77423 (FILTER_VALIDATE_URL accepts URLs with invalid userinfo).
• 1748[22:53:25] <hansh> 7.3.26* no idea where 20 came from
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• 1750[22:54:58] <hansh> debian 10's php-7.3 is vulnerable to CVE-2020-7171 , tested right now.
• 1751[22:55:42] <hansh> guess someone should complain to debian sec team?
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• 1753[22:56:11] <azeem> CVE-2020-7171 ?
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• 1755[22:56:34] <hansh> sorry 7071
• 1756[22:56:38] <hansh> faw
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• 1758[22:57:39] <hansh> this one, replaced-url
• 1759[22:57:46] <hansh> reproduce details are here replaced-url
• 1760[22:58:57] <hansh> hmm no there's something i don't understand about it, going on here :/
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• 1763[22:59:55] <azeem> you can file a bug against buster's version of php7.3
• 1764[23:00:40] <azeem> though replaced-url
• 1765[23:02:16] <hansh> ah kk, nvm then, they're aware of it, and im not fully sure how it works
• 1766[23:03:24] <azeem> hansh: also, replaced-url
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• 1768[23:03:33] <azeem> so Debian does indeed upload new patch releases
• 1769[23:03:44] <azeem> just not every single one
• 1770[23:05:13] <hansh> ok, sounds good; having debian backport patches from 1.1.y 1.1.x sounds like a lot of wasted effort on debian's part ^^
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• 1775[23:09:50] <azeem> well, it depends on how disciplined an upstream project is; php apparently only fixes bugs, but lots of projects don't have maintenance-only branches, or backport/commit features as well
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• 1777[23:12:45] <hansh> php has fucked up a few times and broken stuff in patch releases, but they try not to do it, and it's very rare. 2 comes to mind, (new DateTime())===(new DateTime()) broke in a patch release once, and mt_srand(123);mt_rand(1,100) also broke in a patch release once~
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• 1783[23:19:17] <hansh> how do i find the package when i get the message "package P is not available, but is referred to by another package"
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• 1785[23:21:56] <azeem> maybe apt rdepends p
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• 1800[23:39:07] <kj14> I have successfully installed packet tracer 8.0.0 from the .deb installer. When I run it from the terminal it shows "Starting Packet Tracer", but nothing happens. How can I capture this process to see error messages or figure out what's not working?
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• 1803[23:43:44] <sney> kj14: you can run it in gdb, but it's unlikely to have debugging symbols included in the binary. there used to be a #ciscostudy on this network that knew all the tricks to get those programs working, you might want to try there
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• 1807[23:45:17] <kj14> thanks sney
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• 1811[23:50:17] <Jasperw> so this is a bit crazy - I have a machine I can ssh into but the filesystem has had some kind of problem and I can't run most commands - I get a seg fault or input/output error
• 1812[23:50:43] <Jasperw> shell builtins work, so i can "echo *" and cat things
• 1813[23:50:55] <Jasperw> Can anyone think of a way to reboot this machine?
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• 1815[23:51:39] <Jasperw> neither sudo or su work and I'm not root, I'm in these groups: 4(adm),20(dialout),24(cdrom),25(floppy),27(sudo),29(audio),30(dip),33(replaced-url
• 1816[23:52:38] <Mister00X> Jasperw: does shutdown -r work?
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• 1818[23:53:32] <derpadmin> "but the filesystem has had some kind of problem"
• 1819[23:53:38] <derpadmin> are all the partitions mounterd?
• 1820[23:53:44] <derpadmin> *monted
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• 1823[23:53:51] <derpadmin> are some mounted read-only?
• 1824[23:55:09] <derpadmin> does "df" and "mount" commands work?
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• 1826[23:55:24] <derpadmin> /usr/bin/df
• 1827[23:55:32] <derpadmin> /usr/bin/mount
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• 1831[23:57:57] <Jasperw> mount gives: zsh: Input/output error: mount
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• 1833[23:58:16] <Jasperw> shutdown -r now gives:
• 1834[23:58:17] <Jasperw> Failed to set wall message, ignoring: Connection timed out
• 1835[23:58:18] <Jasperw> Failed to reboot system via logind: Connection timed out
• 1836[23:58:18] <Jasperw> Could not watch jobs: Connection timed out
• 1837[23:58:18] <Jasperw> Failed to open /dev/initctl: Permission denied
• 1838[23:58:18] <Jasperw> Failed to talk to init daemon.
• 1839[23:58:18] *** Jasperw was kicked by debhelper (flood)
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• 1841[23:58:35] <Mister00X> !paste
• 1842[23:58:35] <dpkg> Do not paste more than 2 lines to this channel. Instead, use for text: replaced-url
• 1843[23:59:09] <sney> without root, none of those shutdown commands will work anyway
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