Realtime Nick Name Ticker of #debian at freenode (ICQ IRC service)

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2[00:00:11] <_Vi> I'm running frankendebian since lenny or etch and typically it works OK. But each major is usually an adventure. Fortunately, system backup and bootable recovery is usually nearby.
3[00:00:26] <jmcnaught> Oh that <list repositories> factoid is the one I was trying to find
4[00:00:26] <_Vi> *major dist-upgrade
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6[00:00:32] * phogg checks his favorite frankenbox.
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12[00:02:30] <_Vi> Are there any better system than Debian to mix releases?
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14[00:03:54] <phogg> _Vi: let's be clear: mixing releases is ALWAYS bad. Anyone who tells you different is selling something.
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16[00:04:27] <jelly> _Vi: mixing in a bit of _older_ releases usually does not bring a lot of trouble. Mixing newer releases is invariably unsupportable
17[00:04:30] <phogg> _Vi: If you want to mix releases and get who-knows-what results I hear "rolling release" distributions are good for that. It's built in to their DNA. IMNSHO the result is "good luck" reliability.
18[00:04:40] <_Vi> Is it true of all packages' dependency version requirements were specified ideally, then any system state which `apt-get` (without force) allows you to get into would be OK?
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20[00:05:02] <jelly> _Vi: no
21[00:05:14] <phogg> _Vi: take a look at Bedrock some time. I mean don't run it, but just LOOK at what they're doing. Try and imagine supporting that.
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24[00:05:32] <_Vi> jelly, Why? phogg, What is Bedrock?
25[00:05:58] <phogg> _Vi: just read replaced-url
26[00:05:59] <jelly> _Vi: packages sometimes have special provisions (read: workarounds) to make a release upgrade from Debian N to Debian N+1 work. Those get removed in Debian N+2.
27[00:06:21] <zojka> does anyone use on Debian 9 wkhtmltopdf?
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30[00:07:09] <jelly> _Vi: thus if you keep a version from oldoldstable, and decide to upgrade to the version from stable, you might not go the expected path and things can behave unexpectedly.
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32[00:08:49] <_Vi> Typically installing "leaf" packages (like applications or rarely dependent on dev libraries) from testing does not bring much problems, as long as that installation does not touch libc or some fundamental packages and not propose to uprade/remove a lot of packages.
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34[00:09:06] <phogg> typically you might get lucky
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38[00:10:14] <jelly> _Vi: too prone to human error
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40[00:11:02] <jelly> if you can easily install it, it's likely you can also easily build a local backport
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42[00:13:06] <jhutchins> _Vi: That is not what we've seen here.
43[00:13:10] <_Vi> jelly, Building from source is when easy install fails. It requires me remembering the command and thinking "in which temporary directory shall I run the build this time? Will it fit in RAM or I need to choose some serious storage?".
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45[00:14:02] <paradigm> phogg: Supporting Bedrock hasn't been that bad, honestly. Traditional distros like Debian do the hard lifting. Of what's left, most users are understanding about the scope of the project relative to available manpower.
46[00:14:55] <jelly> you can reasonably safely cheat these days with golang stuff, because those binaries are basically huge statically linked executables every time
47[00:15:17] <_Vi> What advantage has Bedrock over plain Debian + a bunch of Docker containers for things that does not fit?
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49[00:15:31] <jelly> but it's not talked of in polite company, or suggested to users with an unknown amount of clues
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58[00:18:54] <paradigm> _Vi: Wider scope of things you can get from other distros (e.g. kernel or init), stronger integration between the components (which is a plus for those who want it), and a *much* smaller base. There are down sides as well, such as additional complexity. If Debian + Docker does everything you need, I'd recommend it over Bedrock. But if you find it lacking something, Bedrock might be worthwhile.
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63[00:20:41] <bobito> hi all, I got 2 ssd installed, the first one has GRUB on the mbr, if I installed another Linux distro, do I put the grub on the MBR of first ssd again? or on the second? or on Root of the second?
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66[00:22:04] <paradigm> bobito: Which ssd's mbr is used is usually set in the motherboard bios settings. You could do any of the above and make it work.
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71[00:23:25] <bobito> paradigm, thank you, buddy
72[00:23:56] <phogg> paradigm: It still seems like an exercise in intentional madness.
73[00:24:27] <paradigm> bobito: happy to help!
74[00:24:46] <bobito> :)
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80[00:29:11] <paradigm> phogg: I don't blame anyone for thinking it seems that way from the outside. I'd almost certainly be similar were I unfamiliar with how it works. If anything, it's exactly that attribute which made it an interesting project to pursue.
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85[00:33:01] <domotivatedYou> night gentlemen, it has been quite some time I was using fedora on user level. I have got some free time to actually advance my linux skills and therefore I decided to give a try to Debian. What's the matter with those old packages everybody keeps speaking about? Will I be ok if I just stick to stable version as a developer, or sooner/later will come to point of old broken packages which will my work pain in the ass?
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90[00:34:47] <annadane> it depends on your needs but you're free to use backports or compile what you need
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93[00:35:30] <annadane> replaced-url
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98[00:39:39] <annadane> i see debian as being something you can build around, you don't have to use package manager versions
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101[00:42:53] <domotivatedYou> thanks for the article. That's exactly what I think with the touch of minimalism, that you can make to your own picture, it's also standard in a field
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106[00:50:23] <at0m> ,v libcurl3
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108[00:50:24] <judd> Package: libcurl3 on amd64 -- jessie: 7.38.0-4+deb8u11; jessie-security: 7.38.0-4+deb8u15; stretch: 7.52.1-5+deb9u9; stretch-security: 7.52.1-5+deb9u9
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110[00:51:08] <dvs> take over, google1
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187[01:44:00] <arthurevans> Pô pivete precisa vir não..
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199[01:56:26] <met> ¿
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274[03:27:09] <usney> what's a good laptop with kernel virtualization?
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382[05:58:15] <admin__> HI
383[05:58:47] <admin__> i am new user in mx linux
384[05:59:29] <admin__> my USB Wifi dongle not showing up what to do..? help..
385[06:00:44] <somiaj> !mx linux
386[06:00:44] <dpkg> Current MX Linux is based on Debian stretch. However, MX Linux is not supported in #debian. Seek help at replaced-url
387[06:01:25] <admin__> which linux you used
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392[06:06:01] * usney chuckpa
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407[06:24:28] <bluedog> "/msg dpkg guidelines"
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426[06:45:31] <v0ltz> Hi
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495[08:02:00] <BullRegard> hello
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701[11:07:43] <Tuke_anonymous> ohoo
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767[11:48:26] <rocketmagnet> hey guys
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770[11:49:27] <rocketmagnet> i've question: when i do apt-get update && apt-get upgrade i get: replaced-url
771[11:50:24] <rocketmagnet> he's holding the linux-image-amd64 back, should i keep it that way or is there a way to install it or better leave it the way it is now ?
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776[11:52:45] <rocketmagnet> this time in english: replaced-url
777[11:53:16] <rocketmagnet> i'm not good with package management and conflict resolving
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799[12:20:37] <n_1-c_k> rocketmagnet: nor am I but what does "apt-get -s dist-upgrade" do?
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803[12:22:36] <darsie> How long till next debian?
804[12:23:20] <humpled> "-s, --simulate, --just-print, --dry-run, --recon, --no-act"
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817[12:32:28] <EdePopede> [2019-Jul-06] Release Debian 10 "buster"
818[12:33:11] <EdePopede> ah, !wwbr could need an update
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835[12:47:04] <humpled> if i have a 32 bit pc, is it normal that amd64 packages don't appear in apt?
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837[12:48:17] <patterson> What is a 32 bit PC?
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840[12:49:43] <humpled> it has a single core and 32 bit memory addressing
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842[12:50:33] <patterson> Is it a Raspberry Pi or something?
843[12:50:51] <patterson> never mind
844[12:50:53] <humpled> no, that would be ARM
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848[12:53:37] <patterson> Pardon me for butting in. Maybe mutiarch
849[12:53:42] <patterson> l
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855[12:55:59] <patterson> And so to bed. (The i386 architecture is for both Intel and AMD 32 bit CPUs. The amd64 architecture is for both Intel and AMD 64 bit CPUs.)
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904[13:25:46] <diogenes_> hello guys, i'm tryin crintab the first time, i'm following the guide on debian page, i do: crontab -e, add: 23 11 * * * /bin/nano, save it, it says: crontab: installing new crontab, i was 11:22 when i added the command and i was waiting at 11:23 it to run: /bin/nano but nothing happened, can you help me to understand why it's not running?
905[13:25:53] <diogenes_> crontab*
906[13:26:16] <abrotman> nano is an editor, what would you like to happen?
907[13:26:48] <petn-randall> diogenes_: I'd guess it ran, but didn't do what you thought it would.
908[13:26:55] <diogenes_> abrotman, well i want to get it run at least something, i tried graphical editor anything.
909[13:27:07] <abrotman> perhaps you should try something more obvious, 29 11 * * * touch /tmp/test_for_me
910[13:27:19] <diogenes_> abrotman, oh ok let me try that.
911[13:27:36] <abrotman> there's no controlling terminal for nano .. I'm not entirely sure that woudl work
912[13:27:36] <petn-randall> It should be /usr/bin/touch.
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914[13:27:55] <diogenes_> petn-randall, noted.
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917[13:28:23] <diogenes_> btw how do i give the oath? /usr/bin/touch /my/path/file?
918[13:28:26] <petn-randall> $PATH is not set in cron, so it wouldn't know where to look for `touch`.
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923[13:31:27] <petn-randall> Not sure what you mean with oath?
924[13:31:45] <diogenes_> ok abrotman petn-randall thanks, /usr/bin/touch /my/path/file worked.
925[13:31:50] <diogenes_> s/oath/path
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927[13:32:38] <petn-randall> ah
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931[13:35:43] <denebola> .*'/home/user
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938[13:45:17] <diogenes_> one more question guys, i can't figure out how to make the command run every 12 days in crontab, this would be the 8 days right? * 23 * * 1
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942[13:47:16] <jperconti> hello i'm new
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946[13:47:57] <darsie> hello I'm old
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949[13:48:59] <jperconti> lol
950[13:49:09] <darsie> How long till next debian?
951[13:49:21] <petn-randall> !wwbr
952[13:49:22] <dpkg> Debian 10 "Buster" started the <freeze> process on 2019-01-12 and should release mid-2019. replaced-url
953[13:49:34] <darsie> thx
954[13:49:47] <jperconti> buster comes with gnome 3.30?
955[13:49:49] <darsie> sorry, forgot it was already answered.
956[13:49:54] <petn-randall> replaced-url
957[13:49:56] <jperconti> or a later ver.?
958[13:50:21] <petn-randall> jperconti: With the version that's currently in there; you can check on replaced-url
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960[13:50:46] <jperconti> thx petn
961[13:50:47] <humpled> diogenes i think that would be once per week,
962[13:51:32] <petn-randall> diogenes_: It's not trivial, see `man 5 crontab` on how the fields work.
963[13:52:15] <humpled> "lists are allowed"
964[13:52:24] <diogenes_> petn-randall, humpled thanks i figured, it would be: * * */12 * *
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967[13:53:55] <humpled> oh nice didn't know about that way
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969[13:55:29] <petn-randall> diogenes_: That would not be exactly every 12 days, it would be on the 12th and 24th of every month.
970[13:55:47] <petn-randall> If that's close enough for you, you can also use that.
971[13:55:53] <darsie> <EdePopede> [2019-Jul-06] Release Debian 10 "buster" <-- that sounds like buster is stable, but replaced-url
972[13:57:09] <petn-randall> darsie: You do realise that date hasn't passed yet, right?
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974[13:57:30] <petn-randall> It's still two weeks until July 6.
975[13:57:42] <darsie> Ohh, 6 is june ...
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979[13:59:23] <EdePopede> :)
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982[13:59:46] <EdePopede> but: two. weeks. time to prepare for impact.
983[13:59:50] <humpled> months start counting at one, confusing huh
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986[14:00:33] <Logg> I'm ready. Always tempting in these last couple weeks to just go ahead and dist-upgrade. especially after "critical fixes only after June 25th"
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988[14:01:03] <petn-randall> Logg: You're always free to do so, and file an upgrade report.
989[14:01:27] <darsie> I'm gonna use the release for a fresh install. Got hacked, possibly.
990[14:01:41] <petn-randall> "possibly"?
991[14:01:46] <darsie> yeah. Not sure.
992[14:01:48] <blackflow> "unlikely"
993[14:02:08] <petn-randall> What makes you think it got hacked?
994[14:02:16] <Logg> petn-randall, good point. :-)
995[14:02:46] <Logg> getting hacked does happen. Vulnerable web services,... there was a vulnerability with ProFTPd that got me hacked back in 2014 or sometime around then
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997[14:03:01] <darsie> Reused my password on another site, hacker got into my email, reset bitstamp password, stole 7000 EUR, sent me an email that my first ethereum deposit would get doubled with a webbug link to my server.
998[14:03:17] <Logg> sounds hacked to me.
999[14:03:31] <finn0> I'm trying to figure out how to reproduce an error/warning message in kernel ring buffer (dmesg). So, is there a way to get notification when an error/warning logged in buffer? Indeed, I can a write a bash script which will scan buffer content every mninute and trigger notification but, I'm looking for easier solution.
1000[14:04:34] <blackflow> you can pipe dmesg -w to your script and read it real time
1001[14:05:00] <petn-randall> finn0: It gets written to /var/log/kern.log by default, so you can simply scan that.
1002[14:05:06] <Logg> rsyslog...? finn0. You can also `tail -F /var/log/syslog` if you want to watch it manually
1003[14:05:48] <blackflow> or journalctl -f (as /var/log/syslog is filtered)
1004[14:06:28] <blackflow> I'd just skip all teh abstractions and intermediate layers and take it from dmesg -w real time (or even use /proc/kmsg)
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1006[14:08:35] <jperconti> dmesg -w nice... i used dmesg | tail -
1007[14:08:37] <jperconti> :s
1008[14:09:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1483
1009[14:09:02] <Logg> yea, i'll remember that one. didn't realize /var/log/syslog was filtered/an_abstraction
1010[14:09:42] <jperconti> watch 'dmesg | tail -' it the same as dmesg -w?
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1012[14:09:44] <blackflow> sudo dmesg -w | (while read line; do echo "Fresh from TEH kernel: $line"; done < /dev/stdin)
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1016[14:10:18] <_2E0LNX> Good afternoon Debianites, where's the best place to find out if a particular feature is available in the Buster proposed stable version of a given package (specifically apache2 and mod-remoteip supporting 'proxy protocol' at the mo') ?
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1018[14:11:03] <Logg> probably figure out what version that started being supported in mod-remoteip and see if it's in the version packaged
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1020[14:11:12] <Logg> or "just try it"
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1026[14:12:51] <_2E0LNX> Logg: using your first suggestion, it should already be there.. but it's not
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1031[14:14:50] <_2E0LNX> There are other packages I would also like to use proxy-protocol with... but I would like to check out what it's available in, rather than fire up all the things, spend time configuring and testing, only to find it's not.
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1034[14:16:24] <ziprasidone> a question; debian blacklist intel/amd-microcode....althougth that debian uses it? or need to not blacklist them?
1035[14:16:32] <ziprasidone> sorry for my english
1036[14:17:06] <ziprasidone> # The microcode module attempts to apply a microcode update when
1037[14:17:08] <ziprasidone> # it autoloads. This is not always safe, so we block it by default.
1038[14:17:10] <ziprasidone> blacklist microcode
1039[14:17:26] <ziprasidone> so, what is better? backlist or not?
1040[14:19:06] <petn-randall> ziprasidone: If you blacklist it, it only gets loaded on boot, not on update.
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1042[14:19:56] <petn-randall> ziprasidone: Since there was at least one microcode update that removed a certain CPU feature, that causes the complete OS to fail, it's not considered safe to update the microcode when the system is already running.
1043[14:20:00] <ziprasidone> what should I do?
1044[14:20:25] <petn-randall> Install the microcode update and reboot.
1045[14:20:27] <ziprasidone> ah ok
1046[14:20:57] <petn-randall> You can always apply it at run time, but that's a risk you need to decide for yourself. Debian just provides safe defaults.
1047[14:21:10] <ziprasidone> yes Its already installed, but it is blacklisted... does debian use it even blacklisted?
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1050[14:22:54] <petn-randall> It adds the microcode to the initramfs, from where it gets loaded. the microcode module is one that can do that at run time.
1051[14:23:03] <ziprasidone> sorry, I don't understand what microcode exactly does
1052[14:23:56] <petn-randall> ziprasidone: Microcode is firmware that runs on your processor. The kernel module "microcode" allows the kernel to load new microcode at any time.
1053[14:24:37] <petn-randall> Since "at any time" is not considered safe, the module "microcode" with the actual microcode is added to the initramfs, where it gets used during boot.
1054[14:25:05] <ziprasidone> ok so only at initramfs but no "at any time" is a safe choice...
1055[14:25:24] <petn-randall> correct
1056[14:25:34] <Soo_Slow> I've added new hdd to my laptop. Everything works out of box, but in file manager I need to connect it manually after each reboot (and it require sudo/su). Is there a way to connect it automatically?
1057[14:25:44] <ziprasidone> i will let it blacklisted, tankt You petn-randall
1058[14:25:53] <petn-randall> Soo_Slow: You can add it to /etc/fstab.
1059[14:26:02] <petn-randall> ziprasidone: you're welcome!
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1063[14:29:23] <Soo_Slow> petn-randall, thanks. Should I add it via manual file edit, or via some command?
1064[14:30:06] <petn-randall> Soo_Slow: You'll need to add it by hand. `man fstab` can help you with that.
1065[14:31:11] <edi> question, anyone here into getting debian to mobile devices?
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1067[14:31:24] <Soo_Slow> petn-randall, what will happen if, say, I ll remove my new drive later? Will it REQUIRE removal of related line from fstab in order to launch pc? Or non-valid results will be skipped automatically?
1068[14:31:31] <edi> i'm disgusted by android i want to get off
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1070[14:33:14] <blackflow> Soo_Slow: invalid mounts will block the boot process, unles you add nofail to the options section
1071[14:34:05] <Soo_Slow> edi, you can chroot into some linux and there are multiple attempts at bringing it on mobile devices without asterisks. But if your concerns are related to privacy - abandon all hope, since due to extremely closed nature of mobile drivers, they all require android's stack of blobs in order to work with real hardware
1072[14:34:16] <Soo_Slow> blackflow, I see, thanks
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1076[14:37:58] <edi> Soo_Slow, thank, so there are no attempts to make open mobile hardware?
1077[14:38:08] <edi> or it's all about the softwarE?
1078[14:38:16] <Soo_Slow> edi, there are, but iirc these are still prototypes and cost a lot
1079[14:39:40] <blackflow> edi: Purism Librem mobile devices are using PureOS which is a derivative of Debian
1080[14:39:42] <Soo_Slow> plus - its completely impossible to make 100% open-hardware phone, due to how sim cards work
1081[14:40:01] <edi> oke perfect doesn't exist
1082[14:40:03] <Soo_Slow> I remember one open hardware kickstarter phone with even ability to disconnect (physically) 3g module, but iirc it costs a lot
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1084[14:40:18] <Soo_Slow> blackflow mentioned it above, I think
1085[14:40:34] <edi> i mean, i could live with having a simcard with some carrier
1086[14:40:38] <Soo_Slow> or not... dunno. There were fuw projects :D
1087[14:40:46] <Soo_Slow> few*
1088[14:40:47] <edi> as long as I know it's not google that rules it all
1089[14:41:00] <edi> i could switch simcards and start a new "identity"
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1092[14:41:37] <Soo_Slow> man IMEI
1093[14:41:51] <edi> ah crap true
1094[14:41:53] <edi> :p
1095[14:42:16] <edi> so imei is coupled to the 3G module?
1096[14:42:16] <edi> or
1097[14:42:32] <Soo_Slow> iirc you can switch it, but that s illegal in lot of countries
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1100[14:44:08] <jelly> mostly because it can be used to impersonate someone else's phone and get their calls or texts
1101[14:44:42] <finn0> petn-randall: thanks for reply. But, question is can I differentiate between output from stdout and stderr written /var/log/kern.log? Otherwise I've search for a specific error message in text file? probably not possible because /var/log/kern.log is regular text but when I open kern.log file vim autmatically highlight error with red strip and warnings with bold.
1102[14:44:45] <Soo_Slow> plus if the new one will be non-valid, your phone wont probably work. Dunno for sure - didnt perform it by myself
1103[14:46:08] <finn0> Logg: As far as remember syslog and kern.log are different not all error/warning message written in syslog. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
1104[14:46:13] <petn-randall> finn0: The kernel has no concept of STDERR and STDOUT, those are userspace concepts. The kernel only knows "output".
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1106[14:48:14] <finn0> petn-randall: Then How coloring of text is done when I open file with vim and dmesg (sudo dmesg --color=always)?
1107[14:49:01] <petn-randall> finn0: Based on patterns.
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1109[14:49:25] <finn0> petn-randall: I want to write a generalize script which trigger on every error/warning message in kernel ring buffer.
1110[14:50:03] <edi> so if I understand correctly it all comes down to IMEI so any other effort is useless?
1111[14:50:23] <Soo_Slow> anyway - I used to be concerned about the same question in past. And, for the most, the answers were rather "accept the tracking to stay in touch" or "throw your phone into trash bin and lose lot of social contacts"
1112[14:50:35] <blackflow> finn0: pipe from journalctl -p err -k ?
1113[14:50:41] <Soo_Slow> Stallman follows the second one
1114[14:50:50] <petn-randall> finn0: What kind of errors exactly? There are already tools for some cases.
1115[14:50:57] <Soo_Slow> but Im not him, so I've decided to follow the first way
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1117[14:51:27] <finn0> petn-randall: I didn't get it? Could you give a brief overview? How it works?
1118[14:51:52] <Soo_Slow> at the end of day - since lot of cities already feature cameras everywhere, its basically impossible to play paranoid anymore
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1120[14:52:19] <petn-randall> Soo_Slow: You can always have a "google-free" android phone, and then use playcli/fdroid to get apps on your phone. No google tracking, but you get all the apps you want from the google store.
1121[14:52:49] <blackflow> so you get apps tracking instead :)
1122[14:53:31] <Soo_Slow> petn-randall, yes, but edi asked for the ability to create "new identity". Which wont work
1123[14:53:33] <petn-randall> Not necessarily, as you don't have the advertising ID.
1124[14:53:54] <blackflow> here's what I do. my samsung galaxy is tied to a specialized gmail account just for that and used for nothing else. I don't buy apps. I don't use any apps other than phone, camera, banking 2fa and FF for some quick lookups in protected mode.
1125[14:53:59] <edi> atm i use lineageos in combo with fdroid
1126[14:54:03] <edi> no playstore
1127[14:54:12] <blackflow> can they track me? sure. is that info valuable to them? abso lutely not.
1128[14:54:14] <edi> no youtube no maps
1129[14:54:17] <edi> but still
1130[14:54:19] <Soo_Slow> blackflow, >banking 2fa
1131[14:54:25] <Soo_Slow> ahah, the worst one
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1133[14:54:36] <blackflow> well it just does 2FA for my bank, nothing else
1134[14:54:42] <Soo_Slow> are you SURE?
1135[14:54:43] <blackflow> I can't do transactions through it
1136[14:54:45] <blackflow> yes
1137[14:55:20] <blackflow> it's only for qr-code based 2FA validation of online transactions
1138[14:55:27] <edi> for banking i only use banks that offer hardtokens
1139[14:55:30] <Soo_Slow> I remember my bank's application featuring some third party antivirus, which will constantly scan running processes, files, phone book
1140[14:55:50] <Soo_Slow> thats why I dont use it and simply login via site
1141[14:55:54] <edi> i don't have any banking stuff tied to my phone
1142[14:56:18] <edi> at maximum i might use a wallet app for small transactions
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1147[14:57:19] <Soo_Slow> if code is proprietary - its better to assume that it can read everything (tbh its better to think so about every piece of code, you didnt read by uself. But this will damage your sanity)
1148[14:58:23] <blackflow> Soo_Slow: except android is empowered by selinux and uses api interfaces. the app would need to ask permissions to "read everything", or xploit a vuln in the security layers.
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1151[15:00:13] <Soo_Slow> blackflow, well, that s a new one. Last time I've touched an android phone, only cyanogen featured something like this
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1176[15:17:40] <Soo_Slow> btw, back to fstab. If I ll write a disk to be noexec - will I be able to make certain files executable in future?
1177[15:18:17] <Habbie> noexec is a mount flag, not a property of the disk or the filesystem
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1181[15:20:18] <finn0> blackflow: Main problem is not getting colored output (I can do this also by sudo dmesg -k -l warn,err) for error/warning but continously monitor log file and trigger notifcation when a new warning/error is gnerated.
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1184[15:21:51] <Soo_Slow> Habbie, what s the difference?
1185[15:22:09] <Habbie> Soo_Slow, that you can change mount flags any time you like
1186[15:23:08] <Soo_Slow> Habbie, but in terms of what I've just said? Does it stay "on top" of filesystem flags (e.g make them obsolete)? Or.. what?
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1190[15:26:46] <Habbie> Soo_Slow, i don't understand the question, sorry
1191[15:28:09] <Soo_Slow> habbie. Lets say I have a disk mounted as noexec. On this disk, I have a script, marked as executable. Will I be able to execute it?
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1193[15:28:14] <Soo_Slow> Habbie
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1195[15:28:22] <Habbie> no
1196[15:28:41] <Soo_Slow> got it, thanks
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1205[15:33:55] <blackflow> finn0: so what's the color have to do here?
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1214[15:40:33] <petn-randall> Hi, I'm trying to get firefox to work without screen tearing (running xfce below). The only two options I've found is to either force X11 to use the obsolete intel driver (which isn't supported anymore and occasionally causes rendering artifacts), or to switch from xfce's compositor to compton. That however causes issues with multi-monitor. Has anyone managed to solve this issue yet?
1215[15:41:02] <finn0> blackflow: I was curious about how coloring works when I open kern.log file with vim and --color=always option which is done on basic of pattern (as petn-randall said).
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1217[15:41:16] <abrotman> petn-randall: you can't use a normal intel driver?
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1219[15:42:04] <petn-randall> abrotman: xserver-xorg-video-intel does work for me with this issue, however it causes artifacts after a while (like fonts not rendering properly).
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1223[15:42:45] <abrotman> Ah, that's no fun
1224[15:42:49] <petn-randall> Single letters will render as gibberish, until no text is readable anymore.
1225[15:43:21] <petn-randall> I've also asked the maintainer why intel is discouraged, apparently upstream has abandoned it in favour of the modesetting driver.
1226[15:44:02] <petn-randall> It's a bit annoying to see that it hasn't reached feature parity with what it's trying to replace.
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1231[15:47:44] <petn-randall> What's also weird is that vlc apparently gets to set vsync properly, just like chromium. Which makes me think this issue might be with firefox, after all.
1232[15:48:03] <petn-randall> Or only firefox exposes a certain bug by the way it handles video output.
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1234[15:50:34] <finn0> petn-randall: there are different kinds on errors present from "ERROR @wl_cfg80211_get_station", "ACPI Error", "drm:intel_pipe_update", "segfalut in gdm3", "AE_error" etc.
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1237[15:52:08] <petn-randall> finn0: Then you might want to look at centralized log management, either elasticsearch/logstash/kibana, or graylog.
1238[15:52:32] <petn-randall> finn0: You can configure streams for those to get notified on such events.
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1245[15:55:30] <downtrip> 12
1246[15:55:49] <dvs> 14!
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1251[15:58:00] <downtrip> dvs: lol, weechat Alt-J error...
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1253[15:58:28] <dvs> sure, sure... ;-)
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1265[16:11:54] <jelly> petn-randall, xfce's compositor has been problematic for years, either not use the feature at all or use compton
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1283[16:26:26] <petn-randall> jelly: Right. The issue with compton however is that it doesn't react to any changes of monitors (and sizes). So if I have my external 2560x1440 monitor plugged in when I start compton, applications will resize to that size when maximized. If I however plug it off and use the laptop screen (1366x768), applications will still resize to 2560x1440 ...
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1290[16:32:37] <jelly> petn-randall, did you try the fork linked in replaced-url
1291[16:33:13] <livin> hi
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1294[16:33:59] <livin_> hi
1295[16:34:11] <livin> hi jacob
1296[16:34:13] <livin_> M
1297[16:34:16] <livin> enna panra
1298[16:34:21] <livin_> livin
1299[16:34:28] <livin> saptiya
1300[16:34:29] <livin_> apram
1301[16:34:33] <livin> summathaan
1302[16:34:38] <livin> tony kku eppadi
1303[16:34:43] <livin_> sare
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1307[16:35:40] <jelly> many pairs of users using this channel as testing ground last couple days
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1312[16:37:54] <rapha> what would be the appropriate way of starting Guard during system boot? something in the user's homedir or a systemd service file or a @reboot cronjob?
1313[16:38:08] <jelly> what is "Guard", rapha?
1314[16:39:23] <rapha> jelly: basically it's kind of the Ruby interface to inotify and friends
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1317[16:41:47] <jelly> if it needs to be running the whole time, and you're comfortable relying on systemd-specific functionality, make a global systemd unit with Restart=always
1318[16:42:16] <rapha> hmm
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1320[16:42:19] <jelly> if it's used by a single user and only useful while they're logged in, a user unit might be better
1321[16:42:54] <rapha> no, it does need to be running all the time. but it'd be useful to be able to inspect it as the user it's running as
1322[16:43:11] <rapha> perhaps i'll make that systemd unit but with a tmux session inside of which I run Guard
1323[16:43:24] <jelly> /o\
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1326[16:43:43] <candidat> yo
1327[16:44:01] <rapha> hmm
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1329[16:44:06] <rapha> okay, you don't like that
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1331[16:44:39] <jelly> just let system capture and log its stdout/stderr
1332[16:44:45] <jelly> systemd*
1333[16:45:02] <candidat> jelly bean =)
1334[16:45:18] <roro_> hi guys
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1337[16:45:54] <rapha> jelly: hmm okay i guess i can still access it with journalctl
1338[16:46:05] <roro_> please.... somebody know abou cobol chanell
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1340[16:46:18] <roro_> please.... somebody know about a cobol chanell
1341[16:46:44] <roro_> ?
1342[16:46:46] <rapha> roro_: seems it's called e
1343[16:46:50] <rapha> #cobol
1344[16:47:11] <roro_> thanks rapha,
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1346[16:47:33] <roro_> but nobody talks with me
1347[16:47:34] <roro_> lol
1348[16:47:38] <rapha> this is IRC
1349[16:47:45] <rapha> and there's not a lot of ppl hanging out there
1350[16:47:49] <rapha> give it a few days
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1357[16:49:30] <roro_> i am very sad
1358[16:49:32] <roro_> :(
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1364[16:54:17] <candidat> me 2
1365[16:54:51] <rapha> me always
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1470[17:51:22] <HelloShitty> Hello peeps
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1473[17:52:05] <HelloShitty> Another question for you guys... I want to automount a Smaba shared device at boot, so I'm trying to add a line to fstab but it is complaining about the syntax
1474[17:52:11] <HelloShitty> The line is this:
1475[17:53:43] <HelloShitty> .//ip.of.shared.devie/share/media_rw/sda1 /media/wdelements cifs rw,uid=$(id -u),gid=$(id -g),user 0 0
1476[17:54:11] <HelloShitty> So, I think I can't use $(id -u),gid=$(id -g)
1477[17:54:20] <HelloShitty> So, I think I can't use uid=$(id -u),gid=$(id -g)
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1479[17:54:34] <HelloShitty> How can I fix it?
1480[17:54:47] *** Joins: nav2002__ (~nav2002@replaced-ip)
1481[17:54:49] <HelloShitty> Or am I forced to replace that by the static values instead?
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1483[17:55:23] <rant> wtf are you trying to do?
1484[17:55:51] <candidat> i try to rule the world
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1486[17:55:57] <candidat> :op
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1491[17:58:17] <rant> HelloShitty: if you want a share mounted for individual users, then you dont want it automounted at boot, you want it automounted at LOGIN
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1494[17:58:42] <rant> HelloShitty: you'd set it to simply user,noauto then use a login script to mount it
1495[17:59:49] <HelloShitty> Well, this is my laptop. No one else comes to work on it but ok, I aept that suggestion
1496[18:00:10] <HelloShitty> By script it can be a line in .bash_profile or so?
1497[18:00:26] <HelloShitty> s/aept/accept
1498[18:01:34] *** Parts: The0phile (~theophile@replaced-ip) ()
1499[18:01:46] <HelloShitty> but the thing is that I need to include those 2 options, uid=$(id -u) and gid=$(id -g) in the mount command
1500[18:01:49] <rant> idk you're being real damn vague and not saying what specifically you are trying to achieve..
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1502[18:01:58] <rant> whatever it is, you're doing, you're doing it wrong
1503[18:02:03] <rant> no, you really dont
1504[18:02:07] <HelloShitty> I have an external drive connected to an IPTV box
1505[18:02:15] <rant> if something is user mountable it already does that
1506[18:02:35] <rant> as long as the user mounts it
1507[18:02:35] <HelloShitty> and I want to share that external drive with my home wireless network
1508[18:02:51] <rant> if the user isnt mounting it, there is no way those kinds of commands make any f'n sense anyhow
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1510[18:03:13] <HelloShitty> well, it works fine when I issue the mount command manually
1511[18:03:15] <rant> the question is wtf you can't just make it static.. is more than one different user going to be mounting it?
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1513[18:03:41] <HelloShitty> ok, relax man... Why so many 'f' words...
1514[18:03:44] <HelloShitty> ?
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1516[18:03:55] <blackflow> coming from a "helloshitty", lol
1517[18:04:30] <HelloShitty> Can't understand what my nickname has to do with the way of speaking (writing)
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1521[18:05:28] <HelloShitty> I asked a question and all I get is what seems to be a flamed person answering... I think I have made nothing to piss off anyone
1522[18:05:34] <EdePopede> allow users to mount it and the user who mounts it owns it then
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1526[18:05:46] <HotSwap> i think rant answered up there a ways ^
1527[18:05:50] *** moldovak is now known as candidat
1528[18:05:53] <HotSwap> and ede just repeated the answer
1529[18:06:02] <HotSwap> I think rant got a little ranty when you dismissed their solution
1530[18:06:20] <candidat> i love debian
1531[18:06:21] <EdePopede> <HelloShitty> but the thing is that I need to include those 2 options, uid=$(id -u) and gid=$(id -g) in the mount command
1532[18:06:24] <EdePopede> why?
1533[18:06:29] <candidat> because !
1534[18:06:39] <HelloShitty> otherwise I can't write there anything
1535[18:06:45] <HelloShitty> due to permissions
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1537[18:06:54] <rant> no, I got pissy cause I'm tired and in pain, and they re-iterated using options that make no damn sense at all
1538[18:07:05] <EdePopede> think: can you mount ANYTHING for ANOTHER user?
1539[18:07:07] <rant> and ignored me probing for more information
1540[18:07:27] <rant> and I'm allowed to be pissy, I'm not being paid
1541[18:07:34] <rant> and I was still answering the question
1542[18:07:36] <HelloShitty> rant: I didn't ignore you. I answered to that. I said what I was trying to do
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1545[18:08:02] <rant> you haven't said anything that I can see that explains why you'd want to somehow do what you're suggesting
1546[18:08:06] <HelloShitty> I have no idea you are tired or in pain. I'm sorry for that though
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1548[18:08:13] <rant> the user mount command already does that
1549[18:08:22] *** Joins: rivyn (~rivyn@replaced-ip)
1550[18:08:36] <rant> and as I said, if the point is to do this for different users then you dont want automounting, you want mounting upon login or something
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1553[18:09:07] <rant> if its only one user, you can just put their uid,gid, if its multiple simultaneous you can make a group and use the gid of that group and add all users to it
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1555[18:10:15] <HelloShitty> I'm the only user of this laptop
1556[18:10:39] <HelloShitty> and I just wanted a way of automating the proccess of mounting the device
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1558[18:10:52] <humpled> that's not to say you won't create other user accounts for yourself
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1560[18:10:58] <HelloShitty> because at the moment I'm doing it manually using the mount command
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1564[18:11:42] <HelloShitty> :|
1565[18:11:59] <HelloShitty> I want to keep it simple
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1567[18:12:06] <HelloShitty> Not going to create other accounts for myself
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1569[18:12:09] <humpled> using an appropriate group is the unix way i think
1570[18:12:23] <EdePopede> smb is windows, how could it be simple!
1571[18:12:50] <HelloShitty> Well, that's what I have in this iptv box which is Android
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1573[18:13:05] <HelloShitty> it has a Smaba server so I guess I have no other option other than use it
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1575[18:14:38] <EdePopede> maybe because it sounds less problematic to let linux users use smb than windows users use nfs ;)
1576[18:14:51] <HelloShitty> So, how and how should I do this? fstab, .bash_profile, or what?
1577[18:15:11] <HelloShitty> I never used either, tbh
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1580[18:17:03] <EdePopede> if you don't want a system account mount it, but your user, then put it into .profile. and don't forget to unmount it when you close your last shell.
1581[18:17:25] <EdePopede> unless there's a timeout after some inactivity on server side
1582[18:17:36] <rant> HelloShitty: if you are the only user, chances are your uid,gid are 1000 and thats not gonna change
1583[18:17:58] <rant> which means you can just use those values, but there are other reasons you dont want to automount samba
1584[18:18:14] <rant> for one thing it can lead to problems especially if you dont also use noerror
1585[18:18:34] <rant> as it may not be available for automount always due to network conditions
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1587[18:19:48] <rant> so really even rather than hooking it to systemd via fstab, or to login via bash, DM, or DE session manager, you should maybe be hooking it to network-manager so it is only brought up with the right network, which is what I've done in the past
1588[18:20:04] <rant> because obviously I wouldnt want my home shares being mounted when I'm not on my home network
1589[18:21:34] <HelloShitty> ok, you have a point there, obviously
1590[18:21:51] <HelloShitty> but I have no idea how to hook it up to network-manager
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1592[18:22:20] <HelloShitty> Can you tell me how it's done? Or at least what to search in Google to be able to read and learn how it's done?
1593[18:23:01] <rant> HelloShitty: keep the fstab line with simply the user,noauto so its user mountable and not auto mounted, then you need to make a script for mounting it and toss it somewhere, maybe /usr/local/bin/sharemount or something
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1597[18:24:54] <HelloShitty> Wouldn't that be kind of equivalent to add a line to .bash_profile with the mount command?
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1600[18:24:58] <humpled> this looks relevant: replaced-url
1601[18:25:56] <rant> HelloShitty: no, you just need a script you can call from network-manager
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1604[18:26:19] <rant> HelloShitty: then you do nmcli connection show and it will list all your configured connections and their UUID
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1606[18:26:38] <Junior> Hi
1607[18:26:51] <rant> HelloShitty: you will then use the UUID(s) for your home network to identify which connections to use
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1611[18:27:34] <HelloShitty> rant: I think you're assuming I'm an average Linux user... Unfortunately I'm not!
1612[18:27:35] <humpled> you can even set the timeout
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1614[18:27:56] <HelloShitty> I don't understand or know how to do most of the things you're telling me
1615[18:28:44] <rant> HelloShitty: I have this in /etc/network/if-up.d/cifsmount replaced-url
1616[18:29:00] <rant> those 4 uuid are the UUID listed by nmcli connection show
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1619[18:29:35] <Junior> I was wondering if anyone could help me out or give advice. I'm currently using something like Ubuntu. But I was thinking it may be better to just run a plain debian w/ gnome installation on my laptop or is that stupid?
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1621[18:30:07] <EdePopede> wait, network-manager depends on libpam-systemd?
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1623[18:30:48] <rant> HelloShitty: then I have this in /usr/local/bin/autocifs or /usr/local/sbin/autocifs works too replaced-url
1624[18:30:52] <somiaj> network manager uses some privlage escilation to allow normal users to modify the network (Even at boot)
1625[18:31:00] <somiaj> usure on the details, but that could explain that depends.
1626[18:31:03] <EdePopede> Junior: no, it's not. buster will be released in 2 weeks, so even your timing is perfect ;)
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1628[18:31:48] <rant> HelloShitty: you can also put that first script into /etc/NetworkManager/dispatcher.d/pre-down.d/ with "autocifs unmount" to unmount on disconnect
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1630[18:32:04] <EdePopede> ah, that's it. i jumped right into all of it without even looking how it works. it does, was enough for me for the moment :)
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1633[18:33:10] <Junior> I do still need windows for some compatibility issues with certain apps. But other then that I'd like my "main" OS to do as little I don't know about. Like with windows it's constantly doing things in the background and a million processes and all that
1634[18:33:40] <HelloShitty> I think that's too much complication for what I neeed... I really appreciate your help, but if I start trying to do that, I know I'll run into many other issues for sure
1635[18:33:44] <Junior> Ubuntu is a lot "calmer" but it still has a bunch of stuff
1636[18:34:07] <somiaj> I don't know what you mean by a lot calmer, I see it as the opposite.
1637[18:34:11] <rant> HelloShitty: you try to automount a cifs share on a laptop you're gonna run into problems regardless
1638[18:34:31] <somiaj> ubuntu has a much quicker release cycle, and is constntally changing, debian will be forzen and not change for about 2-3 years, making it really calm.
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1640[18:34:45] <HelloShitty> Then I think I'll ahev to do it manually
1641[18:35:19] <Junior> Well I can leave windows idle and the CPU will be constantly doing stuff in the background. I don't have that running Debian/Ubuntu
1642[18:35:45] <rant> HelloShitty: if you use a DE like MATE, you can just bookmark the share in your filemanager and just click on it to mount it
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1644[18:36:18] <somiaj> Junior: a lot depends on what you choose to run/do. You may find that a smaller desktop like xfce or lxde is even calmer than gnome.
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1646[18:36:45] <candidat> hi Junior
1647[18:36:58] <Junior> That is true. But I like the way gnome looks better and I'm a sucker for looks too unfortunately
1648[18:36:59] <somiaj> Junior: Outside of the bloated (in my opinion) desktops, debian won't be doing stuff you don't ask it to. You can only install the software you need to run, and it will only run when you ask it to.
1649[18:37:05] <Junior> Hi candidat
1650[18:37:23] <candidat> i think the same
1651[18:37:33] <Junior> That's what I'd like. I like seeing the CPU spike and know it's doing things but only when I know what it is doing
1652[18:37:34] <somiaj> Junior: yea, I'm a fan of minimial window managers, but I think gnome is ugly. nice thing about debian is it provides all the DEs, window managers, to give the users a choice of what they like.
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1654[18:37:37] <candidat> but linux hasnt got all the wonderfull games
1655[18:38:04] <Junior> yeah I've got another machine for games :)
1656[18:38:10] <candidat> hahah
1657[18:38:17] <candidat> nice
1658[18:38:18] <candidat> :)
1659[18:38:25] <candidat> same here
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1661[18:39:30] <Junior> It's a nice place this. I'll return but have to go for now
1662[18:39:37] <Junior> Catch you guys on the flippety
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1664[18:41:11] <annadane> though i wonder how simple proton is to set up on debian, for games
1665[18:41:21] <annadane> and there's obviously steam
1666[18:41:34] <EdePopede> with its 32bit client. booh!
1667[18:41:38] <annadane> and, like, gog, etc
1668[18:41:49] <EdePopede> legal? you never know.
1669[18:42:00] <EdePopede> or was this the other place?
1670[18:42:08] <annadane> i play exactly like, 2 games, so it's not a priority
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1672[18:42:33] <EdePopede> i guess if you don't need more than XP than wine should work?
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1676[18:42:41] <EdePopede> or qemu or what it was
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1679[18:43:09] <candidat> i have a friend he wrote an emulator in javascript
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1682[18:43:30] <candidat> see ya Junior
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1689[18:45:23] <EdePopede> there's a js version of some dos emulator i've seen on some online gaming site. ah, right. dosbox. used to be the other one.
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1692[18:47:25] <candidat> starcraft 2 is a good free to play game
1693[18:47:33] <candidat> we should play it sometime
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1698[18:50:56] <EdePopede> got half-life 2 and 1602 recently for 1 or 2 euro each. will see if and how i get them to run on buster on the other machine. much newer than this one and has even 4GB RAM!
1699[18:51:16] <EdePopede> and qemu doesn't have any tags in stretch, meh.
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1701[18:52:12] <annadane> one nice feature of debian for a desktop is "ideally" you'd upgrade to newstable only when officially released but, for stuff people really do want new features of there's the option to upgrade after freeze
1702[18:52:26] <annadane> so if you really wanted buster features you could do it early
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1705[18:53:53] <bbt> how do i list the files from an installed package?
1706[18:53:56] <EdePopede> i'll get a new disk after the weekend and plan to clean up both PCs and then try a full-upgrade, just to have made one :D
1707[18:54:11] <EdePopede> bbt: dpkg-query -L $package
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1709[18:54:40] <bbt> there we go, thanks.
1710[18:54:43] <EdePopede> bbt: and with -S $file you get a package name for some file, just to have both of them
1711[18:55:15] <annadane> i need to break the bank on a nice pc at some point, the specs could be better (and i want to get off nvidia anyway and see what AMD can do) and i've abused this computer anyway and made the hardware suffer
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1713[18:57:51] <friendofafriend> You can get so much PC for so little, now.
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1716[18:59:21] <friendofafriend> I'd probably go with one of those rigs using an old Xeon and DDR3 ECC, end up with six cores and 16GB of RAM for ~$200. :)
1717[18:59:22] <EdePopede> not if you want to play recent games
1718[18:59:55] <friendofafriend> That's down to your graphics card, and you can most certainly use positively ancient hardware with a new graphics card.
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1725[19:01:55] <annadane> i never really know who to buy from or who's reputable and not charging zillions for things that don't require that price
1726[19:02:20] <candidat> amd rulez
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1729[19:02:42] <candidat> annadane, you will see amd performance for the buck is unbeatable
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1731[19:03:22] <friendofafriend> If you're talking about new-in-box, the used market has a glut of Intel chips, and China is making NIB motherboards for them.
1732[19:03:28] <candidat> get a raytracing card it worth it
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1734[19:05:14] <jhutchins> annadane: There are some good ways to shop for stuff on line. pricewatch.com, tomshardware.com microcenter.com
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1736[19:05:48] <jhutchins> annadane: BestBuy is usually a bit suspicious.
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1742[19:08:51] <jhutchins> I run a relatively ancient core2 duo, and my only complaint is that calibre and chrome take a long time to load.
1743[19:09:09] <jhutchins> It's mostly just a terminal for accessing remote resources - like irc.
1744[19:09:16] <somiaj> maybe get an ssd for that? (:
1745[19:09:30] <somiaj> or do what windows does, and preload them during boot so they load faster...
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1747[19:09:38] <jhutchins> somiaj: Yeah, that's semi-planned.
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1756[19:14:44] <somiaj> my ssd with buster on it died, so I've been stuck in windows on my desktop for a while, not enough time to go fix it...:/
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1809[20:04:27] <Vizva> replaced-url
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1811[20:05:46] <Vizva> yes its not a onion site
1812[20:05:59] <Vizva> look like iwas sleeping
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1852[20:33:27] <ServerOk> when i run a program, i get errro missing libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0
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1854[20:33:36] <ServerOk> how do i find out which package provide libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0 ?
1855[20:34:01] <ServerOk> ./Simba.x86_64-linux: error while loading shared libraries: libgdk-x11-2.0.so.0: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
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1862[20:36:26] <EdePopede> ServerOk replaced-url
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1864[20:36:49] <ServerOk> Thanks
1865[20:36:49] *** Parts: diogenes_ (~diogenes_@replaced-ip) ("vergissmeinnicht")
1866[20:36:53] <EdePopede> ServerOk: is this from a tgz or a deb?
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1875[20:39:06] <ServerOk> it is binary file i downloaded from github, precompiled
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1877[20:39:51] <ServerOk> replaced-url
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1879[20:40:44] <humpled> popular name
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1973[21:34:41] <booyah> how come so long and still the critical Remote Code Execution bug is in debian stable firefox?
1974[21:34:51] <booyah> it was like 3 days
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1978[21:36:35] <booyah> this is a disgrace :/
1979[21:37:04] <booyah> related: is there a solution to have programs uninstalled or disabled while they are vulnerable untill they are fixed?
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1992[21:42:06] <EdePopede> booyah: simply don't use them. code is not dangerous as long as you don't execute it. but of course you also can apt-get uninstall it
1993[21:42:46] <victorqueiroz> Is it really not possible to change pointer speed on Debian stable's KDE? I'm truly shocked
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1999[21:43:16] <blackflow> I think the question was whether there's a tool that identifies vulnerable packages andoptionally disable/uninstall them. there is, `debsecan`
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2002[21:43:48] <somiaj> victorqueiroz: it should be, man xset
2003[21:43:49] <blackflow> however, the truth of the matter is that so many packages are vulnerable at any given moment that you'd probably never have fully working installation
2004[21:44:01] <booyah> EdePopede: the reason is to disable it for me, I do not read security trackers 24/7
2005[21:44:11] <booyah> also, should have option to kill already running programs (when Im afk)
2006[21:44:26] <blackflow> booyah: sorry I didn't hilight you, those two things were for you
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2011[21:45:57] <booyah> debsecan | wc -l
2012[21:45:59] <booyah> 6768
2013[21:46:00] <booyah> like wtf
2014[21:46:15] <blackflow> yeah. that's the unfortunate reality of things (in any/all distros)
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2017[21:47:06] <blackflow> and also, note that many of those are hard or unlikely/unfeasible to exploit. Debian does its best to address most critical vulnerabilities (kernel RCE, userland RCE over network, local privilege escalations, and similar)
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2024[21:48:03] <booyah> 3100 remote holes
2025[21:48:09] <booyah> wtf is this even
2026[21:48:12] <Junior> Hi again
2027[21:48:37] <blackflow> btw.. you have ~7k packages installed? iirc debsecan only shows installed... but please consult the manpage maybe there's an option to narrow those to installed only
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2030[21:49:53] <booyah> 905 high urgency, REMOTE exploits
2031[21:50:00] <booyah> guys do you even security
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2033[21:50:13] <blackflow> booyah: ah no, wait, wc -l won't count packages, the output is multilined per package
2034[21:50:21] <victorqueiroz> somiaj: No GUI?
2035[21:50:23] <Junior> Sorry I just joined, what has 3100 remote holes?
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2038[21:50:38] <booyah> blackflow: yeah it counts exploits, not packages
2039[21:50:44] <booyah> but I can't remove kernel anyway
2040[21:50:45] <EdePopede> Junior: debsecan | wc -l
2041[21:50:57] <booyah> Junior: typical debian desktop
2042[21:51:05] <victorqueiroz> I'm so frustrated by the fact that in 2019 GNOME is still the best DE that exists out there.
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2044[21:51:12] <booyah> victorqueiroz: xfce
2045[21:51:27] <EdePopede> victorqueiroz: depends on your definition of 'best'
2046[21:52:08] <victorqueiroz> EdePopede: IJW, definitely
2047[21:52:40] <victorqueiroz> booyah: For how long have you been using XFCE?
2048[21:52:49] <booyah> victorqueiroz: years
2049[21:52:52] <candidat> we ll come save you in 4 days
2050[21:53:10] <booyah> victorqueiroz: it just works, nothing fancy, and nothing bad
2051[21:53:38] <blackflow> booyah: there's often multiple CVEs for multiple facets or vectors of pretty much the same vulnerability. This latest kernel thingy (TCP SACK) had three in the same subsystem and even with single mitigation for all three of 'em
2052[21:53:42] <victorqueiroz> booyah: In fact, XFCE is definitely the second best.
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2054[21:54:36] <Junior> I started with xfce but I just prefer the way gnome looks I guess
2055[21:54:49] <blackflow> i3wm ftw
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2060[21:55:43] <donofrio> Got a question (sid) why is the installer broken for hfsutil (yes powerpc that is me) I get yaboot error during install and I seem to track it down to missing? why does the powerpc-ibm-utils package not contain ofpath or ofpathname, when I copy from ubuntu 16.04 it goes furthor but then gets upset I also wonder why ybin and yabootconfig files are missing from hfsutils package?
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2069[22:02:06] <jhutchins> !debian-next
2070[22:02:07] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net.
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2072[22:02:33] <jhutchins> donofrio: What part of "Sid breaks all the toys" did you miss?
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2076[22:03:28] <donofrio> I dunno.... I even had a work around for getting yaboot working but without ofpath and ofpathname I get nothing but sadness
2077[22:03:40] <victorqueiroz> Junior: The good thing about GNOME is that it is not perfect, it is slow but it works very good for the end user!
2078[22:03:59] <victorqueiroz> Either way, I'm giving another chance for XFCE now.
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2080[22:04:25] <Junior> I'm a sucker for looks and snappy windows animations. My hardware is good enough so I haven't really noticed performance issues
2081[22:04:39] <donofrio> I live on xfce
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2085[22:06:48] <jhutchins> xfce definiately takes a bit more under-the-hood work than gnome.
2086[22:07:27] <EdePopede> [xfce] since 4.14pre1 is out, any chance sid won't stay with 4.12?
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2090[22:08:57] <victorqueiroz> Yeah, pointer speed configuration only works on GNOME. That's just so embarrassing
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2097[22:13:41] <Junior> What about battery life on laptops?
2098[22:13:55] <Junior> Is it the same for xfce and GNOME?
2099[22:14:22] <donofrio> #xfce for the good folks there
2100[22:14:34] <donofrio> I lurk there always
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2102[22:17:27] <jmcnaught> Junior: it's probably pretty similar
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2118[22:30:46] <somiaj> Junior: with modern batteries it is about the same, though the more 'blaoted' desktops will use more cpu thus more battery, but I doubt it will be noticiable when just idel (what matters is what you are running)
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2120[22:31:26] <Junior> hmm
2121[22:31:36] <Junior> Yeah that makes sense
2122[22:31:40] <jmcnaught> Web browser is going to eat way more battery than the desktop environment.
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2127[22:32:49] <EdePopede> indeed. youtube's custom HTML or even worse, Widevine.
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2129[22:33:05] <somiaj> or even just all the javascript on a pages these days and browser prechacing, etc.
2130[22:33:38] <Junior> Thanks for the wisdom
2131[22:33:41] <Junior> Gotta run!
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2135[22:35:10] <ZAJDAN> jmcnaught:mainly in a case when some webpage mine cryptocoins
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2139[22:36:21] <EdePopede> or where the wannabe webdev is a fanboi of all those nifty JS frameworks
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2142[22:38:23] <jhutchins> My pet peeve is all the elements pulled from third party servers and blocking the content.
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2161[22:52:54] <booyah> is passwd really still vulnerable in debian stable to 2 years old exploit?
2162[22:52:57] <booyah> CVE-2017-12424 passwd (remotely exploitable, high urgency)
2163[22:53:02] <booyah> replaced-url
2164[22:53:03] <judd> Bug replaced-url
2165[22:54:22] <somiaj> replaced-url
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2167[22:54:28] <jelly> !cve lookup CVE-2017-12424
2168[22:54:28] <dpkg> Information about the security advisory CVE-2017-12424 may be found at replaced-url
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2170[22:54:56] <jelly> booyah: look at the security tracker to see state of issue for each release
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2173[22:56:44] <jelly> booyah: I would not call that "remotely exploitable", the remote part is not shadow/login code fault.
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2176[22:57:15] <booyah> jelly: yea. still, it's a bit serious
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2178[22:57:22] <booyah> why are this things so damn slowly imported, wtf
2179[22:57:36] <booyah> patch exists upstream, what is the holdup against including in stable
2180[22:57:54] <somiaj> in this case it is for whatever reason the security team has not considered it sever enough to fix in stretch.
2181[22:58:03] <blackflow> manpower and triage that found it insufficiently serious
2182[22:58:15] <booyah> maybe their standard for needing to include should be higher
2183[22:58:30] <jmcnaught> CVE-2017-12424 doesn't sound that serious if you read the description on the security tracker
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2185[22:58:32] <jelly> booyah: it's not serious at all, unless you have a specific piece of code that runs newusers with untrusted input
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2187[22:58:47] <booyah> unfixed bugs in security software, and super-popular software (firefox remote code execution) are unacceptable
2188[22:59:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1486
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2191[22:59:09] <blackflow> jelly: like a very frequent curl <somescript> | sudo bash :)
2192[22:59:13] <booyah> jelly: yeah, like various sorts of panels, a perfectly normal things for admin to put in
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2194[22:59:22] <EdePopede> !lart blackflow
2195[22:59:22] * dpkg drops a baby grand on blackflow
2196[22:59:24] <EdePopede> :)
2197[22:59:26] * blackflow glares at gitlab
2198[22:59:34] <jelly> booyah: do you have a control panel that actually users /usr/sbin/newusers?
2199[22:59:36] <booyah> ok maybe that one isnt, but certain firefox RCE is
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2201[22:59:58] <EdePopede> there used to be a hall of shame for projects recommending this, i think it's not adding anymore
2202[23:00:04] <jelly> booyah: have you even seen one? Have you actually checked? Don't panic.
2203[23:00:05] <booyah> 72 hours and still all debian users on desktop who use firefox can be completly hacked
2204[23:00:09] <somiaj> or are you just looking for CVE's to try to point finger at debian security team not being quick enough for your standards?
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2210[23:00:55] <booyah> jelly: did I've seen firefox RCE in deb? well right now there's one
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2212[23:01:16] <jelly> booyah: that's a separate issue, I'm asking about the newusers command CVE you just mentioned.
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2214[23:01:34] <booyah> jelly: I do not use newusers, so I guess it might affect very tiny group of people
2215[23:01:39] <booyah> s/so/and
2216[23:01:48] <jelly> don't guess. Check the tools you use.
2217[23:01:59] <booyah> written some with adduser afair
2218[23:02:08] <somiaj> and someone would have to escilate prvilages to use that exploit anyways, which means you have worse problems to deal with.
2219[23:02:08] <jelly> risk management is better with less guessing.
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2225[23:03:08] <booyah> yeah I've already said passwd one might be not a problem, Im just getting started with list of CVEs in stable; but what makes me worried is the currently unpacthched RCE in software that probably 80% of desktop users use, firefox
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2228[23:03:23] <jelly> booyah: what's your actual goal with that list?
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2231[23:03:57] <booyah> jelly: to know if debian can be trusted to be usually quite secure unless you have attacker waiting to exploit you in short window of opportunity
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2233[23:04:47] <jelly> booyah: I suggest looking at historical data and how quickly things are closed compared to other distros and OS, not a current snapshot of open issues.
2234[23:05:05] <booyah> jelly: on windows firefox is already patched
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2237[23:06:10] * jelly has nothing to add
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2239[23:06:25] <EdePopede> by microsoft or by mozilla?
2240[23:06:35] <booyah> EdePopede: well by mozilla ofc
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2242[23:06:58] <EdePopede> is firefox for linux fixed upstream already?
2243[23:07:05] <jelly> it's patched in Mozilla's Linux builds, too
2244[23:07:25] <jelly> I think I got an update on Friday or so
2245[23:07:27] <EdePopede> well... but then there was the addon signing desaster recently
2246[23:07:38] <EdePopede> iirc debian's build was not affected?
2247[23:07:44] <Ankman> but that was fixed
2248[23:07:47] <somiaj> the new esr build is fixed, but its been the weekend, and due to other changes that come with the new esr release, debian security might just be taking time to test the new build before pushing it out.
2249[23:07:51] <booyah> I mean, it is unacceptable for many users that regular attacker (not one buying 0-days) has 3+ days window (and counting) to exploit 80% of desktop users
2250[23:08:15] <booyah> do you propose we should accepta that, and assume system is not secure, and serious stuff should be done on special hardware, or not on computers
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2252[23:08:57] <jelly> booyah: I propose you look at historical data instead of latching onto a current example.
2253[23:09:06] <blackflow> booyah: that is why you should never rely on correct or invulnerable code. that's an openbsd wet dream. if you're so concerned, you should invest in other layers of your security framework, namely confinement and mitigation.
2254[23:09:06] <EdePopede> booyah: assume your system to have security flaws at all time. only some of them not being revealed alresy
2255[23:09:17] <EdePopede> * already
2256[23:09:22] <somiaj> I still don't see a support question there, we are volunteers who support debian. This is probably not the venue to complain about the speed of the security team. jelly gave you a good suggestion to look at the debian security team's response rate, use the dsa mailing list and check historically how long it takes the secuirty team to make a new version availble to stretch.
2257[23:09:30] <blackflow> I run firefox with a custom AppArmor profile. It ain't absolute, but it's way better than crying about it not being up to date.
2258[23:09:38] <blackflow> Because.... how many vulns are there that nobody knows of?
2259[23:09:44] <EdePopede> yep
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2261[23:10:10] <booyah> jelly: historical data could tell me if debian is the most secure of popular linuxes overall. maybe it is. But still current example on it's own is alone for me to known this security level is not acceptable, without taking some special action as admin, for example apparmor, se linux, or telling users to not use browser, or use each program in separate user etc
2262[23:10:23] <booyah> s/is alone/is enough
2263[23:10:26] <blackflow> or worse, how many vulns are there that Zerodium is trading right now and your distro maintainers are clueless about? ;)
2264[23:10:41] <EdePopede> booyah: security never is a state, but a way. you can make a complex system less insecure, that's all.
2265[23:10:57] <blackflow> wise words.
2266[23:10:59] <jelly> booyah: IME Debian's not much better or much worse than other major distros. HOWEVER Debian shows its cards and tells you explicitely what's fixed and what's not, the security tracker is open for public, and you can take your own precautions if you see a piece of software used by you or people you care about.
2267[23:11:24] <EdePopede> blackflow: not mine, but i don't remember whom to cite with them ;)
2268[23:11:42] <booyah> ok so for users for whom this is unacceptable that even regular hackers WITOHUT access to 0-days have non trivial window to attack them, what do you recommend
2269[23:11:44] <jelly> booyah: can you say, off hand, whether a random CVE is fixed in, say, Mint, or Archlinux?
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2271[23:12:04] <EdePopede> booyah: clearly don't connect to the internet
2272[23:12:07] <booyah> users that need for example to do "office work", so write emails, browse replaced-url
2273[23:12:11] <blackflow> booyah: I recommend what I said above. Confine and mitigate as much as possible.
2274[23:12:26] <jelly> booyah: how many users do you have that do office work on Linux?
2275[23:12:26] <booyah> EdePopede: sadly their work is online, regarding emails
2276[23:12:39] <booyah> jelly: dozens
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2278[23:12:50] <somiaj> and how many of them are browsing untrusted webpages while working?
2279[23:12:53] <blackflow> booyah: you can also run snapd and install FF from snaps. this was fixed in the snap days ago.
2280[23:12:53] <EdePopede> booyah: then download the mails and open them as text with a client which can't even handle html
2281[23:12:56] <booyah> somiaj: all
2282[23:13:08] <jelly> booyah: install NoScript and agressively block unknown domains.
2283[23:13:10] <booyah> somiaj: almost no page is "trusted" btw
2284[23:13:22] <blackflow> somiaj: oh you know that's a false premise. you can visit trustedsite.com and be bitten by the javascripts ads in the corner.
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2286[23:13:38] <jelly> booyah: or use Mozilla's build, which has other issues
2287[23:13:47] <booyah> what about QubesOS, or something like that
2288[23:13:51] <booyah> like
2289[23:13:53] <EdePopede> never allow 3rd party JS, don't allow 3rd party iframes.
2290[23:13:57] *** jhutchins_sdf is now known as jhutchins
2291[23:13:58] <blackflow> snap is a feasible solution on Debian.
2292[23:14:06] <booyah> to run seperate programs as isolated users, and only exchange some files when needed more manually
2293[23:14:13] <blackflow> or flatpak if you prefer that, but I don't have much experience with flatpaks on Deb
2294[23:14:40] <blackflow> booyah: use apparmor or selinux for that
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2296[23:14:55] <blackflow> QubesOS is nice in theory but is being plagued by qemu/xen vulns that are rather frequent these days
2297[23:15:00] <jelly> EdePopede: keeping track of which js is good and which is not can take lots of time if you allow users to browse internet
2298[23:15:11] <booyah> in debian, is there a good way to run a graphical program as separate user, and only copy files or clipboard between such isolation and other one with mutual consent from both? (like qubesos afaik)
2299[23:15:33] <blackflow> booyah: false premise, with xorg, no GUI app is truly isolated.
2300[23:15:49] <jelly> booyah: no, X is crap that way and you can't help it
2301[23:16:08] <blackflow> hell you can even put three inch thick steel selinux barrier between them, the moment they touch the xorg socket, all bets are off.
2302[23:16:09] <jelly> wayland may be slightly better
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2304[23:16:12] <booyah> blackflow: I think quebesos isolates xorg servers, maybe like xnest or something... and in debian you COULD run multiple X servers, just that it is a bit unfomfortable to swithc virtual terminals all the time
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2307[23:16:47] <EdePopede> jelly: letting users out in the wild is an issue in company networks anyway. and depending on national legislation it may even be a problem to allow them web access. so sane companies would clearly forbid browsing by contract for those who don't have to and have clear rules for the others.
2308[23:16:55] <booyah> so each user/isolation has own xserver, and the main one only copies the resulting image, kind of like wayland
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2310[23:17:32] <jelly> booyah: good luck doing that and keeping performance ie. your yt video not stuttering
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2312[23:17:51] <booyah> jelly: video performance can be sacrifised here, that's ok
2313[23:17:54] <booyah> (for me)
2314[23:17:59] <jelly> then use qubes
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2317[23:18:35] <EdePopede> 32GB, 8 cores... would this still make a difference?
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2319[23:19:27] <jelly> tias
2320[23:19:35] <blackflow> booyah: unless they talk via unix sockets, the performance is gonna be so bad, you'd have trouble just browsin. I know, I tried it.
2321[23:19:45] <jelly> (gut feeling says absolutely yes)
2322[23:19:51] <blackflow> xorg over tcp is abysmally slow.
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2325[23:21:11] <jelly> at some point doing vnc with mpeg4 video transcoding is better than nested X
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2328[23:21:31] <booyah> as for firefox bug on it's own, I wonder can it be ported to stable faster, or what can users do to have it done. maybe security should be more prioritized?
2329[23:21:33] <blackflow> x2go
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2331[23:21:55] <blackflow> with x2go you can adjust the bandwith/quality, but there's no stuttering at least -- iirc
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2333[23:22:18] <booyah> VNC can be fast enough
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2335[23:22:53] <booyah> (should be over unix socket instead TCP, as VNC itself is a joke regarding security if attacker has access to socket)
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2337[23:23:16] <blackflow> yeah but qubes is Xen. I don't think so instances can talk over unix sockets which require common kernel
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2339[23:25:12] <blackflow> many moon orbits ago I was working on a "appliance" bhyve powered minimal debian instance that only starts xorg and openbox with firefox in fullscreen. the idea was to offer an appliance firefox with DRM for Netflix, on FreeBSD. Didn't get far due to very abysmal performance. In fact, even between jails, nothing but pure share unix socket would work.
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2342[23:25:39] <blackflow> shared*
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2344[23:25:53] <yvyz> x forwarding was never intended for media
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2348[23:26:41] <yvyz> In fact, its probably the one thing that does not fit modern computing at all.
2349[23:27:27] <blackflow> but x2go can adjust the bandwidht. I found out about x2go much later and CBA to try with that (I meanwhile stopped contributing for FreeBSD)
2350[23:27:28] <jelly> the whole of X11 does not fix modern anything, all the fast stuff is bolted on top
2351[23:27:54] <blackflow> with x2go you can have highly compressed stream. sure, there be compression artifacts but it wouldn't stutter
2352[23:28:09] <yvyz> When you watch a sweet video, or you use RDP... there is a level of local and remote buffering happening.
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2354[23:28:42] <yvyz> x2go attempts to mimic this
2355[23:28:48] <yvyz> It is still not great
2356[23:29:03] <yvyz> Trust me, i've tried
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2358[23:29:11] <blackflow> yeah I know
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2361[23:29:36] <blackflow> but it's better than uncompressed stream with <1 FPS :)
2362[23:29:37] <yvyz> I ran my main machine on FBSD for a long time. I ran virt machines for everything that required DRM and forwarded through x11fwd.
2363[23:29:39] <yvyz> Terrrible
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