Realtime Nick Name Ticker of #debian at freenode (ICQ IRC service)

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145[02:59:38] <gedia> Hello all. Does anyone know how to produce a control file if a debian source package ships with a "control.in" template? I haven't been very successful in finding documentation online for this..
146[03:00:26] <imMute> gedia: somewhere in the build scripts will be something that transforms it
147[03:00:33] <gedia> Editing the template by hand and renaming to 'control' will make debuild happy, but it fails later on, so I'm assuming there are more steps to this
148[03:01:06] <gedia> imMute: thanks, you mean in rules or a package-specific script I need to run?
149[03:04:50] <imMute> either in rules or something called from there
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151[03:05:20] <imMute> wait, no, debhelper doesn't run unless the control file exists I think. maybe there's some other script you're supposed to run first.
152[03:07:05] <gedia> rules does indeed call 'genscript.py' which generates postinst|postrm from '.in' versions, but no support for control.in in there :-(
153[03:07:10] <gedia> anyway I'll keep looking, thanks
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155[03:08:41] <imMute> maybe start with an 'ack control.in' to see where that string is used
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160[03:09:15] <gedia> wait I think I got it. it's indeed in rules, but it depends on git repo properties
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169[03:22:49] <gedia> ok so one needs to run it manually because debuild will complain there is no control file and exit: 'debian/rules debian/control'
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176[03:30:21] <themill> The actual uploaded source package will already have the debian/control file finalised; anything with debian/control.in is a step the maintainer does prior to upload.
177[03:32:15] <themill> Things like that would normally be documented in debian/README.source or similar
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180[03:39:38] <gedia> themill: thanks, good to know
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183[03:42:31] <themill> (about 800 of the 33k source packages do something like this; not really very common)
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187[03:48:02] <jrtc27> and then you have 1000000 go, haskell and rust packages where, yes, debian/control lives in git, but they're all generated by scripts
188[03:48:14] <jrtc27> * I may be exaggerating slightly
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216[04:34:06] <zumba_addict> Everytime I play a video on youtube using Chrome on debian 8 in Virtualbox, few seconds laters, I am unable to click anything on the screen. The video continues to play normally. When I ssh to it, cpu utilization is normal. I killed chrome using kill -9 pid but I still can't click anything. The mouse pointer changes when i hover the mouse on the corner of a terminal software
217[04:34:17] <zumba_addict> here are all the processes running right now - replaced-url
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221[04:35:17] <zumba_addict> it worked now after right clicking
222[04:35:23] <zumba_addict> that's weird
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461[09:45:09] <unixbsd> hello
462[09:45:36] <unixbsd> how to delete an user with "deluser pi" ? this shows up all the time : "pi 693 1.4 2.8 14584 7080 ? Ss 08:43 0:00 /lib/systemd/systemd --user"
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472[09:51:48] <ksk> unixbsd: did you reboot?
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474[09:52:07] <unixbsd> sure... but systemd starts sthg with pi all the time.
475[09:52:24] <oxek> unixbsd: the command is correct, 'deluser pi'. You will still need to remove the home directory of the user, and reboot the machine (or kill all processes owned by the user).
476[09:53:00] <unixbsd> yeah but sysstemd refuses to delete the user.
477[09:54:01] <unixbsd> /usr/sbin/deluser: `/usr/sbin/userdel pi' returned error code 8. Exiting.
478[09:54:07] <unixbsd> userdel: user pi is currently used by process 454
479[09:54:19] <unixbsd> whatever I can try, it will give this error.
480[09:55:18] <hwm4rgs> can't delete a user who's currently doing stuff. such as running systemd.
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484[09:55:52] <unixbsd> cannot we replace systemd by openrc in buster?
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487[09:56:40] <unixbsd> I would like to delete my user pi, so if systemd is off for a while or completely removed that would help.
488[09:57:26] <hwm4rgs> Sure, start by figuring out who starts systemd for the user pi, and disable whatever's doing that.
489[09:58:48] <unixbsd> will this command work or rather destroy the box? "pkill -9 systemd ; apt-get remove --purge systemd ; apt-get install openrc ; deluser pi "
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498[10:05:09] <hwm4rgs> my money would be on "bad idea" since systemd does a lot more than openrc
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501[10:07:20] <unixbsd> yeah, but most linux uses openrc for fast system. systemd is very heavy in memory. it slows down the machine a lot.
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536[10:10:33] <ratrace> unixbsd: "cannot we replace systemd by openrc in buster?" :: should be possible, yes, Debian allows that and currently that's the policy.
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540[10:11:53] <ratrace> unixbsd: "systemd is very heavy in memory. it slows down the machine a lot" :: that's not true really. it is a complex beast, yes, but it doesn't impair performance. In fact, unlike openrc where parallel startup is not recommended, systemd does improve bootup times unless it's misconfigured.
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550[10:24:27] <hwm4rgs> let's not have the systemd/openrc debate, it's been done
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553[10:24:46] <hwm4rgs> just saying, replacing isn't necessarily as simple as removing one and installing the other
554[10:28:51] <ratrace> hwm4rgs: what's making it complicated? I know there's a difference between "let's replace pid 1" and "let's have a 100% (lib)systemd free de(bi|vu)an". the latter is quite some work, I can imagine.
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556[10:30:58] <hwm4rgs> ratrace: The suggested command sequence was "purge systemd; install openrc"
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558[10:31:50] <ratrace> hwm4rgs: is that impossible? what are the obstacles?
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560[10:34:03] <hwm4rgs> for one, removing systemd will remove things that depend upon it, which on my system is quite a lot
561[10:34:54] <hwm4rgs> and I think it's completely unsupported on raspbian
562[10:35:13] <wyoung> systemd <3
563[10:37:00] <ratrace> hwm4rgs: well I was wondering because the Debian just recently voted on supporting alternative inits, and while I myself never had the urge to replace pid1, I'd be very interested in what the actual problems are, because from what I've read and heard from others, is that you can easily replace pid1, but some libsystemd deps do remain. purging 100% of anything systemd (note pid1 !== libsystemd deps), which
564[10:37:06] <ratrace> is what devuan is doing, is quite a lot of work.
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566[10:37:57] <ratrace> so the question I think is "do you want just pid1 + process_manager replaced, or do you want, basically, devuan".
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572[10:39:11] <hwm4rgs> On the larger level there are no "problems" with replacing pid1. I'm talking about this specific case with this specific user, who really wants to just remove a user.
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578[10:43:09] <ratrace> what does deleting a user have to do with what pid1 is running?
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580[10:43:34] <hwm4rgs> The user can't be removed as it's running systemd --user.
581[10:43:48] <hwm4rgs> And unixbsd wants to remove systemd to resolve this.
582[10:44:04] <ratrace> I see.
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740[12:24:20] <Franciman> Hi, so I haven't had any problems with the WiFi, really strange
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749[12:29:09] <nvz> I haven't had any problems with the Wifi either.. but I don't find that strange at all
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758[12:37:33] <ratrace> Franciman: so I guess that hexchat disconnections may've been cause by network issues probably outside of your LAN
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761[12:38:52] <Franciman> ratrace, no I don't think so, because while I had those issue I was correctly navigating on my smartphone, which was connected to the same WiFi
762[12:39:32] <Franciman> I still bet there was a problem while I installed transmission-qt
763[12:39:35] <Franciman> let me retry
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783[12:54:28] <NetTerminalGene> ,v thunderbird
784[12:54:29] <judd> Package: thunderbird on amd64 -- jessie: 1:52.8.0-1~deb8u1; jessie-security: 1:68.9.0-1~deb8u2; stretch-proposed-updates: 1:68.9.0-1~deb9u1; stretch: 1:68.10.0-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 1:68.10.0-1~deb9u1; buster: 1:68.12.0-1~deb10u1; buster-security: 1:68.12.0-1~deb10u1; bullseye: 1:68.12.0-1; sid: 1:78.3.1-2
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790[12:57:06] <littlebit> hi people, did anyone has installed the webfrontent cockpit?
791[12:58:19] <ratrace> Franciman: speaking of, it's possible that using torrents choked your network which beame visible through hexchat disconnects. torrents are network hogs, with large number of small packets going everywhere
792[12:59:02] <ratrace> littlebit: cockpit is packaged, but I never used it on debian. do you have any problems with it?
793[12:59:24] <Franciman> hmm i see
794[12:59:47] <Franciman> as soon as the problem reappears I'll try to be more specific
795[12:59:53] <Franciman> thanks for all the support, btw
796[13:01:22] <littlebit> ratrace: well I'm not aquanted with qemu which it apparently uses under the hood to run virtual machines. and I can only select 'virtual network' as network type
797[13:01:56] <littlebit> and noth the other network types such as: Bridge to LAN, Generic ethernet connection, Direct attachment
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803[13:09:28] <ratrace> littlebit: checked their docs? replaced-url
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806[13:14:31] <littlebit> ratrace: had seen into the docs and the word 'bridge' is mentioned but for non networking purposes
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836[13:46:47] <dob1> I would like to parse ipset -L output listing only the ip/subnet with package / bytes != 0
837[13:47:47] <dob1> nevermi nd
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839[13:51:05] <shtrb> Would anyone remind me please how I close an old bug I opened because it was fixed upstream ?
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851[13:57:43] <dvs> shtrb: I don't think you can close a bug. The most you can do is make a note in the bug report to close the bug.
852[13:58:06] <shtrb> reply to the e-mail and say fixed upstream ?
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854[13:58:21] <dvs> yes
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900[14:43:46] <b1ack0p> hi
901[14:44:13] <b1ack0p> i am getting Syntax error before grub menu appears like " syntax error missing slash on "cyan" press key to continue"
902[14:44:30] <b1ack0p> i checked /etc/default/grub and nothing related about colors
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904[14:45:01] <b1ack0p> before 10.6 update i set 05_debian_theme for my choosen colors so there is no cyan anymore
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906[14:45:25] <b1ack0p> but in /boot/grub/grub.cfg i see some cyan color sets : replaced-url
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909[14:45:46] <b1ack0p> i edited line 100 and 101 but after reboot it turns back again
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919[14:50:16] <bumbar__> how do i install (or downgrade python 3.7) python 3.6 on debian 10
920[14:50:28] <codedmart> I have been testing suspend, and I noticed my media keys stopped working after waking up my laptop from suspend. So I did a `killall gsd-media-keys`. I accidentally ran it again and gnome crashed with a `Oh no something has gone wrong ... a problem occurred ...` and I had to logout and back in. Is there a better way to restart gsd-media-keys?
921[14:50:57] <ksk> ,v python3.6
922[14:50:58] <judd> No package named 'python3.6' was found in amd64.
923[14:51:00] <ksk> ,v python3
924[14:51:02] <judd> Package: python3 on amd64 -- jessie: 3.4.2-2; stretch: 3.5.3-1; buster: 3.7.3-1; bullseye: 3.8.2-3; sid: 3.8.2-3; experimental: 3.8.5-1
925[14:51:03] <dvs> b1ack0p: my cyan line says "cyan/blue", not just "cyan"
926[14:51:26] <b1ack0p> dvs: i realised that but even i edit it to cyan/blue and save it
927[14:51:34] <b1ack0p> after reboot it turns back to cyan
928[14:51:52] <bumbar__> great, so 3.6 is not available at all
929[14:51:55] <bumbar__> fucking great
930[14:52:27] <dvs> b1ack0p: you have a 05_debian_theme.save file as well as a 05_debian_theme file. This may be confusing.
931[14:52:29] <ksk> bumbar__: as there is no 3.6 in the repos, you would need to leave the debian ecosystem do get that.
932[14:52:54] <b1ack0p> dvs: why is there .save file?
933[14:52:56] <ksk> imho there should be no reason to use 3.6 instead of 3.7 though.
934[14:52:58] <b1ack0p> do i need that?
935[14:53:19] <dvs> b1ack0p: I don't think having two similar files like that are good.
936[14:53:26] <b1ack0p> let me check then
937[14:54:11] <b1ack0p> dvs: how can i delete that file?
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939[14:55:28] <dvs> b1ack0p: with rm: /etc/grub.d/05_debian_theme.save
940[14:55:31] <bumbar__> ksk, manually build python3, right? i'm just worried i'll mess things with system
941[14:56:00] <b1ack0p> bye bye .save file :p
942[14:56:01] <b1ack0p> done
943[14:56:17] <dvs> b1ack0p: you'll probably have to run "update-grub" now
944[14:56:23] <b1ack0p> yup
945[14:56:47] <joepublic> "Error, missing file 05_debian_theme.save, cannot update grub"
946[14:57:32] <b1ack0p> joepublic: nope it updated grub without error :p
947[14:57:46] <joepublic> excellent :)
948[14:58:14] <ksk> bumbar__: if you put it in /usr/local and dont call it "python" I think everything should be fine. You should definitly make sure, that all the debian scripts keep using the system installed python.
949[14:58:22] <b1ack0p> i need to reboot but i am in a convo so i cant leave now :p
950[14:58:23] <ksk> bumbar__: Whats your reason for wanting 3.6 anyways?
951[14:58:31] <dvs> b1ack0p: Ah I see. The line in 05_debian_theme.save was split up. I see it in lines 101 and 102 in your paste.
952[14:58:40] <b1ack0p> dvs: exactly
953[14:58:48] <b1ack0p> so is it still fine to delete .save file?
954[14:59:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1152
955[14:59:06] <dvs> b1ack0p: it is a duplicate of 05_debian_there
956[14:59:13] <b1ack0p> no more cyan color in boot.cfg
957[14:59:18] <b1ack0p> good
958[14:59:24] <b1ack0p> it updated boot.cfg too
959[14:59:35] <dvs> b1ack0p: no, it is in your 05_debian_theme
960[14:59:56] <b1ack0p> dvs: i edited original 05_debian_theme before 10.6 update
961[15:00:01] <dvs> oops! I'm wrong
962[15:00:01] <b1ack0p> so no cyan color there :p
963[15:00:14] <b1ack0p> .save file had but i removed it so no more cyan
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965[15:00:56] <bumbar__> ksk, it seems some python package works with python3.6 but not with 3.7
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968[15:01:21] <b1ack0p> ook gotta reboot
969[15:01:24] <b1ack0p> see ya
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982[15:10:04] <dob1> what is the dev that corresponds to usb 2-6 ?
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987[15:11:39] <sigint> bumbar__, building Python from sources is quite straightforward on Debian. If you do the ./configure step properly it will not mess with the system installed Python.
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989[15:12:24] <sigint> But if your confortable with containers this is the fool proof way of having multiple versions of Python on the same system.
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991[15:12:34] <sigint> you're*
992[15:12:58] <b1ack0p> back
993[15:13:05] <b1ack0p> dvs: grub is fixed. thanks!
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995[15:13:10] <dvs> np
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999[15:17:12] <oxek> there's absolutely no difference between a user group and a system group, except that system groups have gid <1000 and user groups have gid >=1000, correct?
1000[15:17:30] <oxek> and this is the behavior on debian, it differs on other distros, correct?
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1003[15:18:48] <ksk> oxek: replaced-url
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1005[15:20:21] <ksk> mhmkay, that does not actually answer your question; but yes, all debian system users and groups have IDs < 1000.
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1008[15:21:17] <oxek> yeah, that wiki does not answer it
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1011[15:21:48] <ksk> be aware that "a system user" could also mean a user added with the "--system" switch, leading to it having a shell of /bin/false - and thus unable to login
1012[15:22:06] <oxek> I only mean groups, not users
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1014[15:22:23] <MrTrick> I've got some command running SLOW, `time cmd` gives real 0m21.093s, user 0m1.557s, sys 0m2.774s.
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1016[15:22:41] <MrTrick> This is inside a container.
1017[15:22:42] <oxek> I want to add a group, and was thinking of using --system to give it uid <1000 so that all regular users still align with 1000:1000 1001:1001, etc
1018[15:22:53] <MrTrick> Any idea why the real is so much longer than the others?
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1020[15:23:19] <ksk> MrTrick: user and sys is, to my best knowldge, CPU Time. So my guess: IO!
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1026[15:24:20] <MrTrick> hmm, it's accessing a db in another container, but only doing 2 queries.
1027[15:24:31] <MrTrick> maybe file system, apparently new docker upgrade is slow. :-\
1028[15:24:43] <ksk> oxek: man addgroup: "If addgroup is called with the --system option, a system group will be added."
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1030[15:25:06] <oxek> ksk: and as far as I understand it, the only difference is the gid
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1032[15:25:13] <ksk> MrTrick: stracing said process could shed some light, depending on your knowledge of C system calls :)
1033[15:25:17] <oxek> which is meaningless in everything, it's just a number
1034[15:25:31] <ksk> yap.
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1039[15:26:16] <MrTrick> ksk: that's a bit over my head. I ran php profiling, first thing I see when the file was opened "total elapsed time 2sec" ^_^ so it's not aware of the delays.
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1042[15:26:58] <ksk> MrTrick: yeah, having docker in the chain does not make it easier at all..
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1044[15:27:30] <ksk> MrTrick: maybe then try to break down what said programme does in smaller party yourself, as in: Check if the db request is fast, and whatever else it does.
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1054[15:33:11] <sigint> MrTrick, does your process fork? If so the user/sys time may be attributed to another process
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1056[15:33:59] <sigint> open top/htop and run your command again, you should see if processes are created and if they spend a lot of time in R or D.
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1064[15:45:59] <Lady_Aleena> Hello. Does Debian have a way to pick up a Samsung 9 phone on the network and let me use the phone as a camera and microphone for a jitsi meeting?
1065[15:48:16] <shtrb> partly
1066[15:48:42] <Lady_Aleena> Next question, how would I set that up?
1067[15:49:04] <shtrb> Lady_Aleena, you have a solution partly to with ffmpeg to connect it's camera as a local video device. the mic can be delivered via several types.
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1069[15:51:27] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, looking at ffmpeg, I am not seeing how it connects my system to my phone.
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1071[15:52:45] <shtrb> You run an app on your phone that share your video cam via rtsp or something like that , on debian you run : ffmpeg -re -i $phonestreamingpath -vcodec rawvideo -pix_fmt yuv420p -f v4l2 /dev/videoX
1072[15:53:49] <shtrb> Lady_Aleena, for example replaced-url
1073[15:53:54] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, so not an easy thing, since I would need some sort of app on my phone too.
1074[15:54:28] <shtrb> That was the first thing I could think off , you can try playing with kdeconnect (that should allow you audio transfer but not don't know about the cam )
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1078[15:55:52] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, I can barely get my phone's apps to work now. I messed up the settings on my phone at some point, and now I can't install anything new.
1079[15:56:20] <shtrb> adb ?
1080[15:56:37] <ksk> android debugger.
1081[15:56:52] <ksk> eh, nevermind ;D
1082[15:57:14] <shtrb> you may try to nuke crappware from orbit using adb command line to uninstall apps.
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1084[15:57:40] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb and ksk, abd the abbreviation for android debugger?
1085[15:57:45] <shtrb> no
1086[15:58:06] <RadoS> On debian you have "full vim" and "vim-tiny" package. With vim-tiny when in input-mode, I want to paste "replaced-url
1087[15:58:20] <ksk> Lady_Aleena: replaced-url
1088[15:58:30] <ratrace> x11 integration
1089[15:58:46] <ksk> to get ADB, you afaik install the google andoid SDK, this then contains adb.
1090[15:58:50] <shtrb> no
1091[15:58:55] <RadoS> ratrace, that was for me?
1092[15:59:01] <shtrb> ,v adb
1093[15:59:02] <judd> Package: adb on amd64 -- stretch: 1:7.0.0+r33-1; buster: 1:8.1.0+r23-5; sid: 1:8.1.0+r23-7
1094[15:59:08] <ratrace> RadoS: ah, sorry, yes
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1097[15:59:28] <shtrb> !tell ksk about android-tools-adb
1098[16:00:20] <ksk> (the trigger is adb :P)
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1100[16:00:26] <shtrb> ksk , Lady_Aleena apt-get install android-tools-adb
1101[16:00:35] <shtrb> why !tell does not work like that ?
1102[16:00:59] <ksk> it does, the trigger "android.tools-adb" just does not exist - afaik the bot should also have told you that in query
1103[16:01:26] *** Quits: xinming (~xinming@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1104[16:01:38] <ratrace> RadoS: in particular, the vim-runtime that's pulled in with "full" vim and not with vim-tiny. note there's also gtk/gtk3 integration which I think is the gVim specifically
1105[16:02:02] <Lady_Aleena> Don't worry about it, if I can't connect my phone to my computer over wifi in one step, it isn't worth it. I only have an hour, and this looks like a multi day job.
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1108[16:03:20] <shtrb> Lady_Aleena, you can use a bluetooth or usb cable access
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1111[16:03:45] <shtrb> (*) mtp over wifi is broken for a while for some phones , but adb works
1112[16:03:48] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, the last time I tried using a physical connection, my computer did not see my phone.
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1114[16:04:10] <oxek> would be nice if debian resolved the issue that is preventing scrcpy from getting into testing (and backports)
1115[16:04:10] <RadoS> ratrace, I just asked in #vim why a term based app like vim would interact with x11 rather its container term?
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1117[16:04:40] <shtrb> After you connect a usb cable , you should unblock the phone , and enable usb debugging for it to work
1118[16:05:01] <shtrb> Lady_Aleena, ofc , you need not to do my mistake and make sure your usb cable is a data one and not charge only
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1120[16:05:07] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, as I said, this looks like a multiday job, not something I can do in the hour I have.
1121[16:05:19] <ratrace> RadoS: and what did they say?
1122[16:05:32] <RadoS> You are way faster than #vim so far. ;-)
1123[16:05:45] <RadoS> I keep you posted.
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1125[16:06:04] <ratrace> RadoS: afaik, the x11 clipboard can contain more than just text, so it's not just some emulation of "typing", when you try to paste in the term
1126[16:06:36] <ratrace> the term itself and I suppose the running application in it, must have the paste support, and know how to deal with content mimetype
1127[16:06:41] <RadoS> You think could digest more than just pure text?
1128[16:06:45] <Lady_Aleena> I would probably have to sacrifice a goat to the Debian and Samsung gods to make a connection between my computer and phone work.
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1130[16:06:54] <RadoS> +vim
1131[16:07:23] * Lady_Aleena has never seen the appeal of vi or vim.
1132[16:07:26] <RadoS> Anyway, I'll be patient for #vim responses.
1133[16:07:37] <ratrace> RadoS: I don't know if vim can, but pasting into x11 applications (which the terminal emulator is here), sure can
1134[16:07:40] <RadoS> Lady_Aleena, simple, easy, efficient. :-)
1135[16:07:53] <shtrb> Lady_Aleena is trying to start a holy war , because she is going to preach for emacs
1136[16:07:54] <Lady_Aleena> RadoS, no mousing.
1137[16:08:10] <RadoS> Lady_Aleena, => efficient. :-)
1138[16:08:11] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, I'm a Geany user.
1139[16:08:22] <fireba11> RadoS: it'll probably take years to save the initial learning time i have to invest comared to say nano ... :-P
1140[16:08:27] <Lady_Aleena> I've never seen the appeal of emacs either.
1141[16:08:41] <ratrace> RadoS: :help x11 in vim (full)
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1143[16:09:00] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: vim supports mouse btw
1144[16:09:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1167
1145[16:09:02] <shtrb> pff gui - there is no other editor than vi , and vim is it's true messenger
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1147[16:09:46] <RadoS> fireba11, it's just the basics you need at start, that comes quick. All the magic can come later.
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1149[16:10:10] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, well, it still runs in the terminal emulator which is never ideal, at least the last time I looked at vi or vim years ago.
1150[16:10:13] <fireba11> still prety comfy with nano :-P
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1152[16:10:37] <oxek> Lady_Aleena: gvim exists
1153[16:10:40] <ratrace> RadoS: if you read that :help section, you'll see that the integration with x11 clipboards goes directly and puts stuff into vim registers. so it's not the terminal just emulating typing when you paste the text, vim itself understands x11 clipboards
1154[16:10:52] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: there's also gVim, the gtk ui to vim.
1155[16:10:58] <ratrace> gtk/gtk3
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1158[16:11:36] <Lady_Aleena> I don't want to start any wars, I just stated my opinion and will now let it rest. I like Geany, you like vi(m).
1159[16:11:37] <shtrb> wasn't there a TypeScript implementation of vim ?
1160[16:11:54] <dvs> !start an editor war
1161[16:11:54] <dpkg> edlin sucks.
1162[16:11:57] <dvs> yay
1163[16:12:05] <shtrb> butterfly is the best
1164[16:12:11] <hwm4rgs> ed. ed. ed is the standard editor.
1165[16:12:16] <ratrace> shtrb: "dammit emacs!"
1166[16:12:23] <shtrb> :D
1167[16:12:26] <hwm4rgs> you don't want an viitor. nor an emacsitor. those aren't even words.
1168[16:12:55] <RadoS> ratrace, #vim says (like you suggested): vim-full has "direct" x11 (clipboard) support. I could use "shift-paste" to paste to the terminal rather than the app, that might help, will try when possible.
1169[16:12:58] * Ede|Popede mumbles "C-x M-c M-butterfly"
1170[16:13:20] <ratrace> RadoS: mmmh-hmm.
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1172[16:13:54] <Lady_Aleena> If anything I will start an issue on how there is no easy way to connect things to my system over wifi. I always have to make a sacrifice to the Debian and Linux gods to make anything work.
1173[16:14:02] <ratrace> RadoS: so why not just use (full) vim? -tiny is good (in terms of not carrying unrequired code) for console only setups, over ssh, etc...
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1175[16:14:41] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: InstallGentoo(tm) ;) :)
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1179[16:15:13] <Lady_Aleena> There is no `wifi --list-devices` then `wifi --connect-device "samsung phone"`
1180[16:15:14] <RadoS> ratrace, that's what I mostly do.
1181[16:16:07] <dvs> Lady_Aleena: Why are you trying to connect to WiFi through a phone? That sounds like a hard way of doing it.
1182[16:16:08] <RadoS> ratrace, full-vim (as many all-to-smart apps) occasionally "outsmart" me by doing things I _don't_ want them to do, therefore: back to the basics.
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1184[16:16:55] <Lady_Aleena> dvs, I wanted to use my phone's camera and microphone for a video conference in less than an hour, but it looks like I have to do black magic to get it done.
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1186[16:17:24] <dvs> Oh, that sounds extremely difficult.
1187[16:17:49] <Lady_Aleena> dvs, which is why I am a little ticked that it isn't easy.
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1189[16:18:27] <ratrace> I gave up trying to integrate the phoen with lee nuks like that. caved in, installed some video conferencing mobile apps.
1190[16:18:30] <Lady_Aleena> It appears usb cameras and microphones are expensive.
1191[16:18:45] <dvs> now, yes
1192[16:19:14] <Lady_Aleena> Even at Walmart they are expensive.
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1196[16:20:46] <Lady_Aleena> Well, at least now I know I can't do it without a lot of pain and suffering (not only mine but those helping me figure it out), so I'll drop it for now.
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1198[16:21:06] <dvs> What? $125 for a Logitech C270???? Wow!
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1205[16:25:26] <ratrace> lol sigyn's quitmsg! good bot! awesome bot!
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1208[16:25:51] <shtrb> Lady_Aleena, can you see if you can install just kdeconnect
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1210[16:26:31] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, I probably already have it since I have kde installed (but not currently in use).
1211[16:27:15] <shtrb> it should audio transfer (don't know about video sharing) , try asking at #kde maybe the will know if possible to pass video via some menu
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1215[16:28:45] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, as I said, I'm dropping the issue for now. I am now down to t-minus 32 minutes until the meeting starts, so I will just watch and type comments about what I hear and see.
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1217[16:29:31] <Lady_Aleena> That is if I can hear anything over the wail of my computer fans going very very very fast.
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1222[16:33:59] <Lady_Aleena> I still can't get my corded microphone to work that is plugged into my computer.
1223[16:34:13] <shtrb> error ?
1224[16:34:45] <dvs> alsamixer?
1225[16:34:46] <Lady_Aleena> shtrb, I don't know how to get it to work. You should know my system is snafu.
1226[16:34:51] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: checked all the relevant alsamixer and pulseaudio controls?
1227[16:35:02] <Lady_Aleena> dvs and ratrace, yes.
1228[16:35:12] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: front or rear pannel connection?
1229[16:35:37] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, rear panel connection meaning I would have to get rug burn checking it.
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1233[16:40:11] <Lady_Aleena> Anything connected to the back of my computer requires me to turn off the computer and pull it out from the cabinet it is in. Then I check the connections, turn the computer back on to check my work, then turn it back off if I did it right, push the computer back into the cabinet, then turn the computer back on, and pray the cables didn't come loose.
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1235[16:42:57] <hackinghorn> hi, I installed buster but I cant have any GUI. After boot, there is only a terminal. How do I get a GUI? I couldn't autoconfigure DHCP during install. Maybe that affected it.
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1237[16:43:28] <dvs> hackinghorn: what GUI do you want?
1238[16:43:54] <hackinghorn> eh, anything, the um, common one, the one everyone has
1239[16:43:56] <dvs> hackinghorn: oh, DHCP would be a more important problem to fix.
1240[16:44:24] <dvs> !install xfce
1241[16:44:24] <dpkg> To install <Xfce> on established systems, ask me about <install x>, then: «apt-get install xfce4 xfce4-goodies». To install using Debian-Installer (if not using Xfce CD-1): from the 'Software selection' dialog, choose "Xfce" (use space bar to toggle selections), then "Continue"; an Internet connection may be required to obtain these packages.
1242[16:44:59] <Lady_Aleena> Looks like I'm going to have to log out and back in, I think pulseaudio just quit on me.
1243[16:45:03] *** Quits: Lady_Aleena (~Lady-Alee@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
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1252[16:51:03] <hackinghorn> dvs, I only have wifi which requires password, can it work?
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1255[16:51:30] <dvs> hackinghorn: as long as you know what the password is.
1256[16:52:16] <Lady_Aleena> Looks like I'm working in silence now, pulseaudio is not working. It keeps saying "Establishing a connection to PulseAudio. Please wait.."
1257[16:53:22] <ksk> hackinghorn: replaced-url
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1261[16:54:04] <Lady_Aleena> How do I kill pulseaudio and restart it?
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1269[16:57:09] <hmuller> Lady_Aleena: I think this still works: pulseaudio -k; pulseaudio --start
1270[16:57:18] <hmuller> I haven't been using pulseaudio for awhile though
1271[16:58:24] <Lady_Aleena> hmuller, did that and got this: replaced-url
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1278[16:59:56] <hmuller> Lady_Aleena: what happens when you run: start_pulseaudio_x11
1279[17:00:41] *** Quits: Seto_Kaiba (~hunterkll@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1280[17:00:42] <greycat> I believe you mean start-pulseaudio-x11
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1282[17:00:55] <hmuller> yes
1283[17:00:59] <Lady_Aleena> hmuller and greycat replaced-url
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1285[17:02:08] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: pulseadio daemon is supposed to be run as user. it also creates the socket in user's home directory. is your ~/ mounted perhaps in a way that would prevent that?
1286[17:02:41] <greycat> maybe she ran this stuff with sudo at some point in the past and it created a thing owned by root that's in the way
1287[17:02:49] <ratrace> possible, yes
1288[17:03:02] <Lady_Aleena> I tried without sudo first.
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1290[17:03:20] <greycat> it would be lovely if the error message said *what* it couldn't connect to.
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1293[17:03:36] <ratrace> find ~/ \! -user 1000 (assuming your uid is 1000)
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1296[17:03:51] <greycat> maybe strace is a good next step, if you can't find any files owned by root in $HOME or /run/user/$(id -u)
1297[17:03:55] <Lady_Aleena> I have no idea what my uid is.
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1299[17:04:02] <greycat> id -u
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1301[17:04:36] <zodd> I used to be a fan of 'pump' (jessie) for debugging dhcp lease issues. What is the preferred alternative as it is no longer available in buster?
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1303[17:05:21] <Lady_Aleena> The command is `find ~/ \! -user 1000` correct?
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1306[17:05:41] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: assuming that's your uid, yes
1307[17:06:00] <greycat> find ~ /run/user/"$(id -u)" ! -user "$(id -u)"
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1315[17:08:50] <ratrace> even better
1316[17:09:52] <Lady_Aleena> Am I supposed to get a file list?
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1318[17:10:19] <greycat> In the best of all possible worlds, there will be no output. Do you honestly not see what the command is *doing*? Especially given the discussion we had here leading up to it?
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1320[17:11:10] <greycat> If there is any output, it means there's something in ~ or /run/user/UID that isn't owned by you. You will want to investigate it.
1321[17:11:29] <Lady_Aleena> greycat, I don't know what the hell is going on. `find ~ /run/user/"$(id -u)" ! -user "$(id -u)"` is returning a file list that is too long for Debian pastebin.
1322[17:11:34] <Enissay> I have an issue with : rsync "${options[@]}" "$file" root@"$host":"$destination" => When I append echo, the command is exactly as it should be, but when I run it, it starts copying all files in the directory rather than just the one I specified in $file. Any thoughts ?
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1324[17:11:53] <greycat> Lady_Aleena: all of the files in that list are owned by someone that isn't you. That's probably causing issues.
1325[17:12:05] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: did you typo here, or did you typo that unescaped ! ?
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1329[17:12:32] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, I pasted it to the command line as it was typed here.
1330[17:12:53] <Enissay> I mean the echo command works like a charm when copy/paste, but when I run the script with the variables, it copies all folder content rather than just the specified file :-/
1331[17:13:13] <greycat> Enissay: learn the difference between rsync -a dir1 dir2 and rsync -a dir1/ dir2 and so on. The trailing slashes are HUGELY significant in rsync.
1332[17:13:16] <Lady_Aleena> greycat, it is a backup of /etc
1333[17:13:43] <greycat> Lady_Aleena: I have no idea what that means. You have a backup of /etc inside your home directory? And it's not owned by you? WHY?!
1334[17:13:44] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: hmm... I guess it needn't be escaped then, as I see ! works just like \!
1335[17:13:54] <greycat> ratrace: correct
1336[17:14:21] <Lady_Aleena> greycat, I copied /etc to /backup/etc and that happened.
1337[17:14:27] <ctcx> greycat: I promise this is the last time I try asking; I'd like to understand once and for all. Why is sudo considered totally safer than su? Are there times when I should use su instead, or better *always* sudo?
1338[17:14:30] <greycat> and /backup is your home dir?
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1340[17:14:42] <Lady_Aleena> greycat, yes.
1341[17:15:00] <Enissay> greycat: I am passing an xml file with no trailing slash = /my/folder/test.xml
1342[17:15:01] <greycat> ctcx: the issue is whether you are superuser only long enough for ONE command, or you leave a lingering superuser shell open for a long time
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1345[17:15:37] <greycat> Enissay: we'd need to see the actual rsync command that you're running, after expansions.
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1347[17:15:53] <ratrace> ctcx: "totally safer" no. it's easy to leak env if you're not careful with sudo
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1350[17:16:17] <ksk> ctcx: it kind of comes down to policy, some companies will just not allow you to "become root" and want you to prefix everything with "sudo" - I dont really see the point, tbh.
1351[17:16:26] <greycat> ratrace: the context was a discussion yesterday/earlier about a hypothetical browser exploit that would reach through X11 and take control of one of his terminals
1352[17:16:36] <greycat> ratrace: the suggestion was not to leave a root shell open
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1357[17:17:42] <ratrace> ah I see. in that context, yeah.
1358[17:18:22] <greycat> for some reason it has taken us several hours to try to convey "do not leave a root shell open" in a way he can understand
1359[17:18:38] <greycat> I don't know what the conceptual roadblock is here.
1360[17:19:06] <Lady_Aleena> I deleted /home/me/backup/etc so now there is only one file that isn't owned by me in my home directory and that is the rescue from my usb drive a while ago.
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1362[17:19:56] <greycat> that sounds unlikely to be causing a pulseaudio problem
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1365[17:20:29] <ctcx> I always felt, for some wrong reason, a bit uneasy with sudo, until reading here. But know this, greycat, ratrace, I actually *never* leave a root shell opened. Whenever I use su - I do only whatever I need to do, then when finished immediately "exit".
1366[17:20:41] <ctcx> I think I forgot to clarify this yesterday.
1367[17:20:41] <greycat> then that's fine
1368[17:20:58] <ctcx> greycat: I apologize to you for not clarifying and annoying you.
1369[17:21:00] <ctcx> Sorry.
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1371[17:21:48] <Enissay> greycat: rsync --ignore-existing --progress --verbose --archive --compress -e "ssh" /my/folder/test.xml root@1.1.1.1:/opt/blah
1372[17:21:54] <dubiago> Sometimes I do extended root sessions under sudo (e.g., sudo su). Not the best approach, I suppose. I randomly generated my root password, so I don't directly su to root.
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1378[17:22:46] <greycat> Enissay: that will copy it to a file named blah on the destination. Is that what you wanted?
1379[17:23:03] <greycat> if blah is a directory, it should be /opt/blah/ at the end
1380[17:23:48] <greycat> !sudo su
1381[17:23:48] <dpkg> Typing "sudo su" is like typing "cat file | cat". If you want a non-login shell as root, just use "sudo -s". If you want a login shell, "sudo -i". There's no need to run two different superuser-elevation programs chained back to back. See also <buster su>
1382[17:24:02] <ctcx> So then, I'm not necessarily at danger if I have opened web browser and IRC, and open a root shell either with su or sudo. *As long as* I don't leave the root shell opened.
1383[17:24:06] <Enissay> greycat: It's a directory, adding a / doesnt change anything
1384[17:24:17] *** Quits: Tobbi (~Tobbi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1385[17:24:19] <Enissay> But, indeed, that's a good point
1386[17:24:23] <ratrace> ctcx: in danger from what?
1387[17:24:26] <greycat> is /my/folder/test.xml a directory? what does ls -ld /my/folder/test.xml say?
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1389[17:24:53] * greycat stands back and lets ratrace try this one
1390[17:24:57] <Enissay> greycat: rsync --ignore-existing --progress --verbose --archive --compress -e "ssh" /my/folder/test.xml root@1.1.1.1:/opt/blah/
1391[17:25:11] <Enissay> I meant blah is a directory. The issue still remains
1392[17:25:12] <greycat> ls -ld /my/folder/test.xml
1393[17:25:15] <ratrace> greycat: uh-oh. am I.... am I knee deep now? :)
1394[17:25:28] * ctcx shuts up.
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1396[17:25:55] <Enissay> greycat: -rwxrwx--- 1 root .........
1397[17:26:16] *** Quits: xinming (~xinming@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1398[17:26:23] <ctcx> ratrace: no need for that. Discussion finished.
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1401[17:26:37] <ratrace> ctcx: it's okay, ask away. I just smelled a bit of mispercieved threat
1402[17:26:41] <Lady_Aleena> When I ran `pulseaudio -k; pulseaudio --start` I got this: replaced-url
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1404[17:26:47] <greycat> Enissay: OK, the error is in the part you refuse to show us, and there is nothing further we can do.
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1407[17:27:22] <ratrace> ctcx: ie. placing accent on open shells in another window while there's a lot more ways a browser can pwn you
1408[17:27:40] <Enissay> greycat: -rwxrwx--- 1 root vboxsf 1811956 sep 29 15:56 /my/folder/test.xml
1409[17:27:47] <greycat> *sigh*
1410[17:28:03] <Enissay> Haha, I thought the first part was explicit it is not a folder xD
1411[17:28:21] <greycat> Yes, that's fine. I'm concerned about the ACTUAL NAME. Does it have a space in it?
1412[17:28:27] <greycat> But you refuse to show the name.
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1415[17:29:02] <greycat> Is there a space in the other name that you obfuscated, the /opt/blah/ one?
1416[17:29:22] <Lady_Aleena> I just ran `systemctl --user restart pulseaudio.service`, it is cycling with me hearing a thumping sound coming from my speakers, and the message "Establishing connection to PulseAudio. Please wait..."
1417[17:29:27] <Enissay> greycat: of course no space. Wait let me make a sample file ti share
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1425[17:32:41] <Lady_Aleena> It keeps trying to establish a connection to PulseAudio, but isn't.
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1427[17:33:41] <Lady_Aleena> But it looks like you are all busy with someone else.
1428[17:34:01] <greycat> at some point you may need to try #pulseaudio instead, because the level of PA knowledge here is relatively low
1429[17:34:08] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: so to back up a bit, what caused this mess? did it work fine before and then all of a sudden issues, maybe after a system change? or it never worked since you installed the system?
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1431[17:34:47] <ratrace> because under normal circumstances, you don't start anything. programs linked with (lib)pulseaudio start the server implicitly, as the running user
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1433[17:34:49] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, it was working fine up until about an hour ago, but I must have misclicked SOMETHING, wonky mouse, and now it is broken.
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1435[17:35:24] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, and now I can't even get into the config to try to fix it.
1436[17:35:25] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: what DE or WM?
1437[17:35:31] <Lady_Aleena> XFCE
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1439[17:35:41] <ratrace> do you have pavucontrol installed?
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1441[17:35:48] <Lady_Aleena> Yes
1442[17:36:13] <dotcom> Enissay: output your stderr to a file.
1443[17:36:30] <Lady_Aleena> And that is what is now broken.
1444[17:36:34] <ratrace> okay so after reboot, and loging into xfce, can you start pavucontrol, does it start normally or throws errors? can you start an application that uses pulseaudio, eg. firefox, and get it to play audio? so, don't start any pulseaudio yourself, just boot, login, start FF (or whatver)
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1446[17:36:47] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: ^^ also what do you mean "can't get into the config"?
1447[17:37:25] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, this is what I see: replaced-url
1448[17:37:41] <ratrace> that's xfce's volume control?
1449[17:37:47] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, yes
1450[17:37:52] <ratrace> can you start pavucontrol?
1451[17:38:12] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, XFCE uses pavucontrol, that is what I just sent the screen shot of.
1452[17:38:27] <greycat> so run pavucontrol in a terminal and confirm that it works or doesn't work
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1454[17:39:13] <Lady_Aleena> Same screen as I just sent to imgur
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1456[17:39:25] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: could be wrong but as I recall, xfce had its own control, it's not directly pavucontrol? could be wrong there
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1459[17:40:35] <Lady_Aleena> And there is this when I run pavucontrol at the command line: replaced-url
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1463[17:43:39] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, XFCE people told me to use pavucontrol.
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1469[17:46:49] <Lady_Aleena> Should I try reinstalling pavucontrol?
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1476[17:49:22] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : just found this : replaced-url
1477[17:49:25] *** Joins: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip)
1478[17:49:27] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: do you have any audio from something like Firefox for example?
1479[17:49:36] *** Joins: skme9 (~skme9@replaced-ip)
1480[17:49:39] <derpadmin> it is weird, but yeah, would give re-install a shot
1481[17:49:43] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, just tried VLC, and nothing.
1482[17:50:04] <derpadmin> or install
1483[17:50:25] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: what about firefox? do you have FF?
1484[17:50:39] <ratrace> why I ask about FF... if I'm not mistaken, FF will revert to alsa in case it can't use PA
1485[17:50:49] <Lady_Aleena> I was watching a jitsi meeting, nothing. Nothing from YouTube.
1486[17:50:52] *** Joins: gelignite (~gelignite@replaced-ip)
1487[17:50:57] <ratrace> so if it doesn't, that would mean as far as applications are concerned, PA is working, so the issue is elsewhere
1488[17:51:10] <Lady_Aleena> s/YouTube/YouTube in Firefox/;
1489[17:51:28] *** Quits: d1cor (~d1cor@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1490[17:51:35] <Lady_Aleena> No sound from any program.
1491[17:51:41] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena so you basically have no sound?
1492[17:51:54] <derpadmin> did you check your alsamixer
1493[17:52:10] <derpadmin> that nothing is muted and everything have volume
1494[17:52:17] *** Joins: hmuller (~hmuller@replaced-ip)
1495[17:52:25] <Lady_Aleena> And pavucontrol gets locked in a loop of trying to "Establish a connection to PulseAudio"
1496[17:52:43] *** Joins: deicide- (~deicide-@replaced-ip)
1497[17:53:01] <dvs> Maybe it's...
1498[17:53:07] <dvs> !timidity pulseaudio
1499[17:53:07] <dpkg> Some users have had <timidity> blocking access to their sound card, resulting in <pulseaudio> only seeing a dummy output. Check if timidity is running with 'systemctl status timidity' and stop/disable with 'systemctl stop timidity ; systemctl disable timidity' and/or remove the timidity-daemon package.
1500[17:53:32] *** Quits: skme9_ (~skme9@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1501[17:53:43] <Lady_Aleena> dvs, "Unit timidity.service could not be found."
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1505[17:54:22] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: the $32k question..... any hints in the journal?
1506[17:54:34] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, how do I get to that?
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1509[17:55:06] <ratrace> journalctl -b ... not sure what other filters to use, like -u or something, so try this and grep -i for pulse for example
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1512[17:55:31] <HSorgYves> How to get aptitude to install recommended packages automatically instead of displaying "The following packages are RECOMMENDED but will NOT be installed:"?
1513[17:56:05] *** Joins: dethos (~dethos@replaced-ip)
1514[17:56:27] <ratrace> HSorgYves: by default, apt installs recommended (but not suggested). maybe you turned that off? lemme unearth the knob....
1515[17:56:46] *** Joins: OsteHovel__ (~OsteHovel@replaced-ip)
1516[17:56:58] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, I have something like 7000 lines in the journal from today alone.
1517[17:57:01] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : PULSE_RUNNING=$(ps aux | grep pulse | grep -v grep | wc -l); if [[ $PULSE_RUNNING == 1 ]]; then echo pulseaudio running;fi
1518[17:57:11] <ratrace> HSorgYves: do you have APT::Get::Install-Recommends "false"; in /etc/apt/apt.conf{.d/} ?
1519[17:57:35] <greycat> derpadmin: man pgrep
1520[17:57:41] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: I can imagine, but tried grepping for "pulse"?
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1522[17:57:43] <Lady_Aleena> derpadmin, nothing returned.
1523[17:57:55] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : pulse is not running
1524[17:58:05] <derpadmin> greycat : I know pgrep thanks
1525[17:58:06] <HSorgYves> retrace: Not talking about apt, that one seems to work, talking about aptitude. I checked with apt-conf and APT::Install-Recommends is set to "1".
1526[17:58:12] <Lady_Aleena> derpadmin, should the word "then" be in that command line command?
1527[17:58:16] <greycat> If you did, you would not have written that.
1528[17:58:25] *** Quits: diogenes_ (~diogenes_@replaced-ip) (Quit: vergissmeinnicht)
1529[17:58:29] <ratrace> HSorgYves: oh, sorry, I misread what you asked. I don't know aptitude, sorry.
1530[17:58:30] <derpadmin> ok greycat , whatever you say
1531[17:58:41] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : yes, the whole thing
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1536[17:59:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1174
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1538[17:59:22] <Lady_Aleena> derpadmin, then the original return stands, nothing returned.
1539[17:59:46] <HSorgYves> ratrace: OK, thanks for trying.
1540[18:00:04] <greycat> pgrep pulse >/dev/null && echo "pulseaudio is running"
1541[18:00:16] *** Quits: OsteHovel_ (~OsteHovel@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1542[18:00:29] <greycat> of course, even that's still fundamentally wrong, but hey, I can't teach anyone anything
1543[18:00:44] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: what about that journalctl -b | grep -i pulse ?
1544[18:01:46] *** Quits: lucad111 (~lucad111@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1545[18:01:49] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, 2582 lines returned.
1546[18:02:00] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: netcat those babies to termbin.com 9999 :)
1547[18:02:41] <ratrace> inspect for any personal info before you paste the URL here. journalctl -b | grep -i pulse | nc termbin.com 9999
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1550[18:03:32] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, replaced-url
1551[18:03:42] <jelly> HSorgYves, one time: -r, --with-recommends but the apt.conf tunable ought to be equivalent. Can you show the whole command line and output?
1552[18:03:57] *** Quits: endstille (~endstille@replaced-ip) (Quit: I'll be back.)
1553[18:04:45] *** Quits: hackinghorn (~hackingho@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1554[18:04:52] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: ah, hints galore. aparently a problem with snd_emu10k1
1555[18:06:48] *** Quits: CyberManifest (~CyberMani@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving...)
1556[18:07:00] <HSorgYves> jelly: replaced-url
1557[18:07:09] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: is that device familiar to you? is that your normal audio driver?
1558[18:07:25] *** Quits: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1560[18:07:38] <Lady_Aleena> ratrace, this is what I've been using since wheezy, but I've never understood how I got it to work.
1561[18:07:52] <Lady_Aleena> I think.
1562[18:07:59] *** Quits: coot (~coot@replaced-ip) (Quit: coot)
1563[18:08:13] *** Quits: fb61 (~Frank@replaced-ip) (Quit: EOD)
1564[18:08:18] <Lady_Aleena> Is there a way to replace snd_emu10k1?
1565[18:08:47] *** Joins: grobi (~rtng@replaced-ip)
1566[18:09:01] <jelly> Lady_Aleena, what with?
1567[18:09:14] <Lady_Aleena> jelly, with a new copy of it.
1568[18:09:19] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: if that's the driver you used before, and you seemed to suggest you clicked something somewhre and boom it stopped working, I'd guess a reset of alsa settings, in ~/ and/or /etc might help
1569[18:09:55] <ratrace> I'm obviously not sure how exactly to factory reset alsa settings, so perhaps someone else knows or google has it
1570[18:10:01] <Lady_Aleena> If my snd_emu10k1 is broken, I need a new snd_emu10k1 correct?
1571[18:10:07] <jelly> Lady_Aleena, broken how?
1572[18:10:16] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: could be just misconfiguration
1573[18:10:28] <ratrace> jelly: like this: replaced-url
1574[18:10:29] <jelly> did the driver file change?
1575[18:10:30] <Lady_Aleena> jelly, I don't know, but ratrace said it appears that is the problem.
1576[18:10:41] *** Joins: Vizva (~Vizva@replaced-ip)
1577[18:11:20] <ratrace> well look at the logs. error about the sink and boom PA service dies on signal, over and over and over and over again
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1581[18:12:34] <jelly> that particular message can be a red herring and appear even when the driver works otherwise
1582[18:12:47] <HSorgYves> jelly: did you see the pastebin of the output?
1583[18:12:52] <jelly> HSorgYves, yes
1584[18:13:04] <HSorgYves> jelly: Any idea?
1585[18:14:02] <jelly> HSorgYves, the only thing that comes to mind is you already refused to install a mailx (alternative) and unhide (alternative) and aptitude remembers that in its extended state
1586[18:14:32] *** Quits: shtrb (~shtrb@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
1587[18:14:47] <jelly> you can manually install one of the mailx-es and one of the unhides, and set them to be automatically installed after that
1588[18:14:53] *** Joins: lucad111 (~lucad111@replaced-ip)
1589[18:15:00] <HSorgYves> jelly: any way to check that "extended" state?
1590[18:15:10] *** Joins: krion (~seb@replaced-ip)
1591[18:15:21] <jelly> probably, but I don't know of one
1592[18:15:24] <krion> hello, trying to hold package docker-ce
1593[18:15:38] <HSorgYves> jelly: what is strange is that it works if using apt-get
1594[18:15:52] <jelly> not sure if it's all in /var/lib/apt/extended_states or elsewhere
1595[18:15:59] <krion> apt-mark works fine, if I do apt-get upgrade it correctly say package has been hold back but if i do apt-get upgrade docker-ce it works even hold flag is set...
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1598[18:16:41] <Lady_Aleena> I'll take my problem to #pulseaudio to see if they can figure it out so you all can help other people.
1599[18:16:48] *** Joins: emilsp (~emilsp@replaced-ip)
1600[18:16:59] <jelly> krion, an explicit request for installation of a specific package will override the held flag, yes
1601[18:17:41] <jelly> krion, "apt-get upgrade docker-ce" does two completely separate things: one is "apt-get upgrade", the other is basically "apt-get install docker-ce"
1602[18:18:03] *** Quits: zapatista (~zapatista@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1603[18:18:16] <jelly> it is not a way to ask apt-get to upgrade just one package, if you wanted to test that.
1604[18:18:30] <krion> you're right sorry
1605[18:18:36] <krion> (and i did know that ;))
1606[18:18:59] <krion> alright then I can not explicitly block an upgrade, even the explicit one ?
1607[18:19:07] <jelly> but an "apt-get upgrade" or "apt-get dist-upgrade" should obey hold status
1608[18:19:17] <jelly> !hold
1609[18:19:17] <dpkg> hold is a status flag that tells the package manager to not automatically upgrade a package. To hold a package 'echo $package hold|dpkg --set-selections' or 'aptitude hold $package'. Note that prior to <stretch> "aptitude hold" is ignored by other package managers and aptitude won't necessarily use holds set with dpkg; see Debian bug #137771. See also <hold list>, <unhold>.
1610[18:20:15] <jelly> huh, when did apt-mark gain hold/unhold
1611[18:20:16] *** Joins: n4dir (~n4dir@replaced-ip)
1612[18:20:23] <krion> :)
1613[18:20:35] *** Joins: hackinghorn (~hackingho@replaced-ip)
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1615[18:20:59] <jelly> krion, does dpkg --get-selections | grep hold ... show the flags set with apt-mark?
1616[18:21:01] <krion> used to use dpkg --set-selections too but apt-mark is cleaner
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1618[18:21:08] <krion> yes
1619[18:21:08] *** Joins: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip)
1620[18:21:15] <jelly> then great
1621[18:21:20] <krion> even dpkg -l docker-ce
1622[18:22:12] *** Joins: zapatista (~zapatista@replaced-ip)
1623[18:22:15] <krion> apt-get install docker-ce remove the flags though
1624[18:22:31] <jelly> hm, I don't think it should
1625[18:23:29] <jelly> in any case, you can document you need to reapply hold after an explicit upgrade to a newer version
1626[18:23:33] <krion> I confirm it does
1627[18:23:39] <krion> Yes
1628[18:23:46] <hmuller> I gave up on pulseaudio, it seemed to have a mind of its own. I've disabled it and use jack
1629[18:24:15] <krion> I rather not hold in the first place to be honest but, heh.
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1634[18:25:11] <jelly> you'll have to address complaints about releases and package quality -> package vendor
1635[18:25:16] <hackinghorn> hi, it seems my wifi device has no driver for the current kernel version. Am I just not able to use Debian?!
1636[18:25:22] *** Quits: martinus__ (~martin@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1637[18:25:43] * jelly takes a look at "apt-cache policy docker-ce" on a machine where that thing is installed, and shakes head
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1640[18:27:03] <jelly> hackinghorn, if you can confirm "no driver" is true as opposed to "no firmware present", you can try using a newer, "backported" kernel
1641[18:27:31] *** Joins: Eryn_1983_FL (~Eryn_1983@replaced-ip)
1642[18:27:48] <jelly> hackinghorn, which debian release? which card? Show the line from "lspci -nn" or "lsusb" output for your wifi card
1643[18:28:36] <hackinghorn> jelly, thanks, I'm trying Buster with Intel® Wi-Fi 6 AX200
1644[18:28:49] *** Quits: tgunr (~davec@replaced-ip##) (Quit: Textual IRC Client: ##replaced-url
1645[18:29:06] <hackinghorn> I dont know what firmware is..
1646[18:29:10] *** Joins: mirrorbird (~psutcliff@replaced-ip)
1647[18:29:27] <hackinghorn> but the intel page says the first firmware release for it is only for kernel 5.1+
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1652[18:30:17] <jelly> hackinghorn, you will need to enable buster-backports repo, enable non-free sources, install kernel and firmware-iwlwifi packages from backports, and try again
1653[18:30:30] <jelly> !buster-backports
1654[18:30:30] <dpkg> Some packages intended for Bullseye (Debian 11) but recompiled for use with Buster (Debian 10) can be found in the buster-backports repository. See replaced-url
1655[18:30:36] <jelly> !non-free sources
1656[18:30:37] <dpkg> Edit /etc/apt/sources.list, ensure that the two main Debian mirror lines end with "main contrib non-free" rather than just "main", then «apt-get update». But bear in mind that you'll be installing <non-free> software. These may have onerous terms; check the licenses. See also <sources.list>.
1657[18:30:46] <jelly> !bdo kernel
1658[18:30:46] <dpkg> Newer kernels for Debian stable releases are available from the <buster-backports> repository. After modifying your sources.list, run «apt update». To install the current backported kernel: «apt -t buster-backports install linux-image-`uname -r|sed 's,[^-]*-[^-]*-,,'`». To list available backported kernel image packages: «aptitude search '?narrow(~nlinux-image,?origin(Debian Backports))'».
1659[18:31:40] <jelly> make sure you also append those " contrib non-free" bits to the buster-backports deb line
1660[18:32:01] <Lady_Aleena> And #pulseaudio seems dead. *head desks*
1661[18:32:22] <jelly> patience is advised
1662[18:32:25] *** Joins: alex11 (~alex11@replaced-ip)
1663[18:32:29] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : did you try alsamixer
1664[18:32:46] <hackinghorn> jelly, ehh, this one is new for me. I need more research on this
1665[18:33:16] <Lady_Aleena> I ran `pactl list sinks | grep -oP --color=never "(?<=device.string = \")(.*)(?=\")" | while read in; do pasuspender -- speaker-test --nloops=1 --chan
1666[18:33:17] <Lady_Aleena> nels=2 --test=wav --device=$in; done` suggested on replaced-url
1667[18:33:36] <Lady_Aleena> Sorry I don't know why the line broke.
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1670[18:34:30] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: that's the consequence of no PA daemon running and you run speaker-test via pasuspender which forces alsa
1671[18:34:33] *** Joins: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip)
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1673[18:35:04] <ratrace> Lady_Aleena: alternatively you could try running aplay /usr/share/sounds/alsa/Front_Center.wav
1674[18:35:56] *** Joins: dtcrshr (~dtcrshr@replaced-ip)
1675[18:36:13] <derpadmin> ok, so alsa is working, good
1676[18:37:00] <jelly> what happens if you play Front_Center.wav on the left speaker
1677[18:37:22] <jelly> *brain exploding*
1678[18:37:35] <hackinghorn> jelly, lol
1679[18:37:40] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : a long shot, but it fixes someone problem in 2010 : cp -rvp ~/.pulse ~/.pulse.bak;rm -R ~/.pulse
1680[18:38:04] <jelly> derpadmin, huh! why not mv ~/.pulse ~/.pulse.bak
1681[18:38:46] <derpadmin> jelly, will it do the same thing at the end of the day ? [ ]yes [ ]no
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1685[18:39:54] <Lady_Aleena> derpadmin, I don't have that directory. I have ~/.pki then ~/.putty not ~/.pulse
1686[18:39:59] <Lady_Aleena> s/not/no/;
1687[18:40:42] *** Quits: Deknos (~deknos@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1688[18:40:47] *** Quits: Lupricon (~Lupricon@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1689[18:40:49] *** Quits: treeview (~treeview@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1690[18:41:34] <Lady_Aleena> If it is a file, I have ~/.profile then ~/.qpsrc
1691[18:41:43] *** Joins: treeview (~treeview@replaced-ip)
1692[18:42:02] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1693[18:42:12] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : never mind, it was on a archlinux on a an old forum...
1694[18:42:14] *** Quits: HSorgYves (~HSorgYves@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving...)
1695[18:43:07] *** Quits: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1696[18:43:07] *** Joins: diniwed (~gavron@replaced-ip)
1697[18:43:07] <jelly> Lady_Aleena, what aboot ~/.config/pulse ?
1698[18:43:13] *** Joins: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip)
1699[18:43:46] *** Joins: adapter (~adapter@replaced-ip)
1700[18:44:26] <Lady_Aleena> jelly, yes, I have ~/.config/pulse
1701[18:44:30] *** Joins: jjrh (~weechat12@replaced-ip)
1702[18:44:32] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena, : yes, what jelly said : replaced-url
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1705[18:44:49] <derpadmin> section "Missing playback devices or audio capture"
1706[18:46:24] *** Quits: Franciman (~francesco@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
1707[18:47:12] <jelly> Lady_Aleena, so... move that dir away, instead, and kill/restart pulseaudio and see what happens?
1708[18:47:22] <Lady_Aleena> So delete the files and dir, and restart pulseaudio, correct?
1709[18:47:23] *** Quits: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1711[18:47:44] <Lady_Aleena> Okeydokey...trying that now.
1712[18:48:36] <jelly> if it dies on its own every 3 seconds anyway you might not need to restart it explicitely
1713[18:48:59] <derpadmin> I like how the people in #pulseaudio try to solve it with pulseaudio command
1714[18:49:08] *** Joins: skme9_ (~skme9@replaced-ip)
1715[18:49:20] <derpadmin> and debian people (that had sound issues before) just go like : delete config & restart :D
1716[18:49:29] <derpadmin> I am the later, not the former
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1719[18:50:56] *** Joins: Spr1ng (~Spr1ng@replaced-ip)
1720[18:51:04] * derpadmin is is listening to set-me-free.mp3
1721[18:51:15] *** Joins: hendursaga (~weechat@replaced-ip)
1722[18:51:16] <Lady_Aleena> OH MY!!!!! 8) That worked! You are all the best!!!!! Thank you!
1723[18:51:40] <derpadmin> yay!
1724[18:51:47] <ratrace> \0/
1725[18:51:54] *** Joins: SoulsForBelial (~SoulsForB@replaced-ip)
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1727[18:52:13] *** Joins: frgo (~frgo@replaced-ip)
1728[18:52:14] <Lady_Aleena> I moved ~/.config/pulse to ~/.config/pulse-old; then ran `systemctl --user restart pulseaudio.service`; now have sound.
1729[18:52:16] *** Joins: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip)
1730[18:53:19] <derpadmin> now you have to script it lol
1731[18:53:24] <derpadmin> fix_sound.sh
1732[18:53:37] *** Quits: skme9 (~skme9@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1733[18:54:38] <Lady_Aleena> derpadmin, um... bash scripting and I have a bad history.
1734[18:55:05] <derpadmin> replaced-url
1735[18:55:11] <derpadmin> it's a shame ^ :D
1736[18:55:30] <greycat> I'm assuming "script the nuking of your profile" was a joke anyway.
1737[18:55:32] <ratrace> bash scripting does sound abusive
1738[18:55:47] *** Joins: winy (~vince@replaced-ip)
1739[18:56:29] <hmuller> lol, until you forget the commands you needed
1740[18:56:34] <derpadmin> I prefer to script these things, so I dont have to look for the command next time
1741[18:56:37] <derpadmin> lol
1742[18:56:38] *** Quits: teclo- (42@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
1743[18:56:42] <derpadmin> just put fix in the name
1744[18:56:48] <derpadmin> fix[TAB]
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1748[18:57:20] *** Quits: wook (~d3m0n@replaced-ip) (Quit: Byez)
1749[18:57:39] <Lady_Aleena> If I needed systemctl more often, I would remember how to use it, but I don't need it that often, so never remember how to use it.
1750[18:57:40] <derpadmin> or make a .txt file with your commands in it, and bookmark it in your browser, I am flexible...
1751[18:58:06] *** Joins: kylese (~Kylese@replaced-ip)
1752[18:58:27] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena : I remember the services by heart, I hate the journal part
1753[18:58:40] <Lady_Aleena> derpadmin, next time pulse goes buggy for me, I know to rename ~/.config/pulse to ~/.config/pulse-old then run systemctl ...
1754[18:58:42] * derpadmin just want to cat/tail/grep logs
1755[18:59:02] *** password4 is now known as tawrantula
1756[18:59:09] <derpadmin> Lady_Aleena, yup, write it down somewhere lol
1757[18:59:14] *** Quits: tawrantula (~password@replaced-ip) (Disconnected by services)
1758[18:59:19] <derpadmin> until you change your box...
1759[18:59:32] * Lady_Aleena goes to read man systemctl to see how to list all services.
1760[18:59:43] *** Joins: password2 (~password@replaced-ip)
1761[18:59:56] *** Joins: teclo- (42@replaced-ip)
1762[18:59:58] <derpadmin> --list-all-units ? (trying from memory)
1763[19:00:10] *** Joins: Deknos (~deknos@replaced-ip)
1764[19:00:18] <greycat> systemctl list-units --type=service
1765[19:00:56] <jelly> mind you pulseaudio might be a service running at user level, not global service
1766[19:01:10] <hmuller> huh, if it is that simple I might reenable pulseaudio and set jack aside
1767[19:01:13] *** password2 is now known as assword2
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1771[19:02:49] <jelly> systemctl --user list-units --type=service # I GUESS, never tried. pulseaudio is something that is started by my X session, not a systemd user or system service, on Debian 9
1772[19:03:33] *** Quits: xinming (~xinming@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
1773[19:04:20] <Lady_Aleena> I perused the man and found list-units. I was trying to be a good Linuxer by reading the man. 8)
1774[19:04:47] *** Quits: DeaDSouL (~DeaDSouL@replaced-ip) (Quit: leaving)
1775[19:04:48] *** assword2 is now known as Cursewords2
1776[19:04:55] <greycat> it's a rather large man page, so there's no need to punish yourself by ignoring people who give you search terms to speed up the hunt
1777[19:04:58] *** Joins: macc24_ (~macc24@replaced-ip)
1778[19:05:24] <hmuller> ptfm, i like that
1779[19:05:39] <jelly> I do not remember syntax of lots of tools, but having a huuuge command line history, and knowing how to search for things is useful
1780[19:06:13] *** Quits: macc24 (~macc24@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1781[19:06:21] *** Quits: Haohmaru (~Haohmaru@replaced-ip) ()
1782[19:06:32] <Lady_Aleena> greycat, I won't ignore my rescuers ever. You are all so good to me.
1783[19:06:43] <jelly> also, searchable personal wiki. Or even a single text file with misc CLI crap.
1784[19:06:58] *** Quits: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
1785[19:07:02] <hmuller> jelly: i use tiddlywiki just for that
1786[19:07:04] *** Joins: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip)
1787[19:07:08] <jelly> nod
1788[19:07:26] <nkuttler> there's also zim, a desktop wiki
1789[19:07:34] <jelly> coworkers use zim.
1790[19:07:44] <ratrace> did the invasion start?
1791[19:07:46] <hmuller> i used zim, settled on tiddlywiki
1792[19:07:53] <Lady_Aleena> Honestly, this channel and ##linux help keep me sane. Your patience with me is amazing!
1793[19:08:07] <jelly> I have a text file (and also ~/.history)
1794[19:08:15] *** Quits: timur_davletshin (~timur_dav@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
1795[19:08:23] <nkuttler> Lady_Aleena: people who are willing to learn are cool, doesn't matter what they already know
1796[19:08:25] *** Quits: Texou (~Texou@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1797[19:08:33] <jelly> Lady_Aleena, personally I'm in it for the virtual cookies.
1798[19:08:43] *** Quits: Vizva (~Vizva@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1799[19:08:48] * Lady_Aleena sets out a plate of cookies on the table for #debian.
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1802[19:09:02] * ratrace grabs
1803[19:09:40] * Lady_Aleena heats up some kernels to make popcorn for #debian.
1804[19:09:47] <hmuller> heh
1805[19:09:51] <jelly> and yes, it is most rewarding to see someone learned a thing
1806[19:10:11] <Lady_Aleena> I have a few custom commands for setting out cookies and making popcorn. 8)
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1809[19:11:34] <Lady_Aleena> I am near tears with joy because of your willingness to give me so much of your time and patience. Every time I have a problem that you help me fix, I tear up a little with happiness.
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1812[19:12:24] <Lady_Aleena> There are places that tell me to rtfm and then leave me to my own devices, but you all don't do that to me. I am so very grateful.
1813[19:12:46] <jelly> we do that when it's warranted
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1817[19:14:43] <Lady_Aleena> I'm gushing, but you all deserve kudos. You have a small idea of how much your help means to me now.
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1823[19:16:34] <ratrace> !next
1824[19:16:34] <dpkg> Another happy customer leaves the building.
1825[19:17:37] <alex11> replaced-url
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1827[19:19:47] *** Quits: SoulsForBelial (~SoulsForB@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1828[19:20:30] <jelly> and just where is IRC on xkcd://2365 ?!
1829[19:21:01] <greycat> in the text popup, right?
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1839[19:27:38] * jelly not sure if guessed or has a browser capable of popups
1840[19:27:44] *** Joins: splinterz (~esplinter@replaced-ip)
1841[19:28:21] <greycat> Remembered, from when I viewed it in Chrome several days ago.
1842[19:29:01] *** Quits: xinming (~xinming@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1843[19:29:16] <greycat> I don't know what the correct terms are. It used to be called "title text" because you did it by putting <img src="foo" title="the text goes here"> but then browsers fucking changed it and broke everyone's sites for laughs.
1844[19:29:27] *** Joins: xinming (~xinming@replaced-ip)
1845[19:29:49] <greycat> or "alt text" because you used <img src="foo" alt="text"> or ... whatever it was. it was too long ago.
1846[19:30:38] *** Quits: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1847[19:30:41] <jelly> and I think those are different and you can have both. I almost rage quit a (different) webcomic when I realized they did both
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1849[19:31:43] *** Quits: de-facto (~de-facto@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1850[19:32:08] <Lady_Aleena> <img alt="What gets viewed if image doesn't load" title="Sometime provides a tip that can be read when you mouse over an image" />
1851[19:32:22] *** Quits: deltanedas (~deltaneda@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
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1854[19:34:20] <greycat> "Unfortunately, because for years IE has incorrectly shown the alt text as a tooltip on :hover if there’s no title attribute given, a lot of people have assumed that’s what is supposed to happen." replaced-url
1855[19:34:45] <Lady_Aleena> The title attribute can be applied to any element. I use it a lot on my site.
1856[19:35:02] *** Quits: tyzoid (~tyzoid@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
1857[19:35:15] <greycat> I promise you, a *huge* number of site authors had no idea that "alt" wasn't supposed to be shown on hover, and wrote all their pages to use alt, EXPECTING it to be shown on hover, because all the browsers did that. Until suddenly they stopped doing it.
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1860[19:35:51] <greycat> so anyway, IRC is mentioned on the hover-title-text thing on the aforementioned xkcd page
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1864[19:37:33] <petn-randall> What Lady_Aleena said
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1867[19:38:34] <ratrace> screen readers also read the alt attr
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1870[19:39:13] <Lady_Aleena> Special note: The hover seen on desktop browsers for the title attribute doesn't work on mobile devices without styling and maybe a touch of javascript.
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1874[19:39:35] <wikan> what should I use rsyslog or syslog-ng?
1875[19:39:41] <wikan> i need lightweight logging
1876[19:39:43] <wikan> :)
1877[19:40:09] <petn-randall> wikan: If you don't pick anything, Debian ships with rsyslog. Pick anything else if you're not happy with rsyslog.
1878[19:40:13] <greycat> debian uses rsyslog by default, so you have to ask yourself whether there is a compelling reason to change that
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1881[19:40:34] <wikan> i removed logging daemon
1882[19:40:40] <petn-randall> Do we have a factoid for lightweight?
1883[19:40:40] <wikan> and i forgot what it was :)
1884[19:40:42] <petn-randall> !lightweight
1885[19:40:43] <dpkg> <mjg59> To a first approximation, when someone says "Lightweight" what they mean is "I don't understand the problems that the alternative solves". (replaced-url
1886[19:40:52] <petn-randall> Heh, we do :)
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1888[19:41:25] <ratrace> well since you can't remove journald, does lightweight then means "don't install another syslog since journald is ther already"?
1889[19:41:41] <ratrace> because with (r)syslog(-ng), you have _two_ loggers....
1890[19:42:06] <petn-randall> journald is just pass-through and non-persistent, unless you change it.
1891[19:42:19] <ratrace> yes, but it's unremovable.
1892[19:42:25] <petn-randall> You can also configure to skip journald altogether.
1893[19:42:50] <wikan> Failed to start journald.service: Unit journald.service not found.
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1895[19:43:21] <jmcnaught> systemd-journald.service
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1897[19:44:38] <wikan> damn
1898[19:44:44] <wikan> i hate systemd :(
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1900[19:44:57] <wikan> i have never learnt it
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1902[19:45:12] <jmcnaught> I like journalctl a lot
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1907[19:45:54] <amlchief> useless stuff with the author using windows os for developing it.
1908[19:45:55] <ratrace> petn-randall: you can configure to log to a syslog socket that's not journald, yes... but my point here is what does "lightweight" mean? if it means "least code as possible", then that would imply journald, no syslog to forward to
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1910[19:46:49] <wikan> i can't start journald using service command. I have no idea where is a directory to check the correct name. I have no idea what I am doing :D
1911[19:47:23] <wikan> ratrace: well lightweight == low resources.
1912[19:47:29] <greycat> systemd runs the journal automatically -- you shouldn't have to do anything
1913[19:47:41] <wikan> my last logs are from may
1914[19:47:48] <ratrace> wikan: well journald is always there, always running, alwys in memory. so in that case, lightweight means no additional syslog
1915[19:47:55] <greycat> you mean logs in /var/log/ ? that's because you removed or killed rsyslog.
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1917[19:48:35] <wikan> 10 minutes ago someone told me to not install rsyslog
1918[19:48:50] <wikan> so I guess I need it, right?
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1920[19:49:09] <greycat> if you want human-readable logs in /var/log/ then you need *something* that implements the same features as rsyslog
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1922[19:49:36] <wikan> ohhh, or just use journalctl, am I right?
1923[19:49:39] <greycat> I think people are unclear on exactly what your motives and requirements are.
1924[19:50:01] <ratrace> wikan: if you don't care about purely textual logfiles, yes
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1927[19:50:21] <ratrace> wikan: you can also use journalctl even if you had syslog. journalctl has indexing and filtering facilities. textfiles have...... grep.
1928[19:50:58] <wikan> cool I like journalctl
1929[19:51:03] <wikan> i forgot about it
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1933[19:52:07] <wikan> i mostly use old laptops so I need everything lightweight. My Debian starts with 170MB of RAM used. Every MB is priceless
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1935[19:52:20] <shtrb> What UI tools do I have that can work with ofono today ?
1936[19:53:17] *** Joins: xinming (~xinming@replaced-ip)
1937[19:53:21] <wikan> Dunno why debian needs som much ram still when Devuan starts with 97MB of RAM.
1938[19:53:36] <greycat> *plonk*
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1941[19:54:31] <wikan> I noticed systemd takes almost 50MB
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1943[19:55:58] <n4dir> looks like you found the reason
1944[19:56:27] <GNU\colossus> 11M RES here, 175M VIRT (for PID 1)
1945[19:56:34] <wikan> 40MB missing! :D
1946[19:57:04] <ratrace> GNU\colossus: systemd?
1947[19:57:14] <GNU\colossus> yes. not Debian, however.
1948[19:57:32] <GNU\colossus> systemd 246 (246.6-1-arch)
1949[19:57:32] <GNU\colossus> +PAM +AUDIT -SELINUX -IMA -APPARMOR +SMACK -SYSVINIT +UTMP +LIBCRYPTSETUP +GCRYPT +GNUTLS +ACL +XZ +LZ4 +ZSTD +SECCOMP +BLKID +ELFUTILS +KMOD +IDN2 -IDN +PCRE2 default-hierarchy=hybrid
1950[19:57:41] <ratrace> GNU\colossus: 170MB here tho, rss. 10MB virt
1951[19:58:03] <wikan> well I mean all systemd daemons. All standard.
1952[19:58:11] <ratrace> no, dumb me, confused columns. the other way around. 10MB rss, 170 virt
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1954[19:58:25] <ratrace> wikan: then you can trade off functionality for memory footprint and run something else
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1956[19:58:54] <greycat> Debian 10 amd64 systemd PID 1: 169616 VSZ, 9608 RSS
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1958[19:59:02] <wikan> well I will change to Devuan soon. Some machines use Devuan now.
1959[19:59:04] <ratrace> wikan: not even devuan but something based on openrc + startx'd xorg; no consolekit or any *kit
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1962[19:59:37] <ratrace> or, wait... elogind doesn't consume much... yeah, startx not needed
1963[19:59:52] <n4dir> you can install openrc with devuan
1964[20:00:17] <n4dir> them calling it experimental in the installer, but it seems to work well
1965[20:00:19] <ratrace> debian even
1966[20:00:20] <wikan> ratrace: true. Systemd is for me... I feel like not an owner of my computer with systemd installed.
1967[20:00:44] <ratrace> wikan: why tho. you have control over everything
1968[20:00:44] <greycat> that it works well for you doesn't make it not experimental
1969[20:00:47] <wikan> n4dir: is openrc better than init?
1970[20:00:51] <n4dir> ratrace: with "installing" i also meant using without too much of sacrifice
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1995[20:01:21] <n4dir> wikan: no clue, but the little i observed it used less than sysv. Ask them, i'd say
1996[20:01:24] <n4dir> greycat: sure
1997[20:01:41] <ratrace> n4dir: openrc still uses sysv for pid1, no?
1998[20:02:05] <wikan> i thought I lost connection
1999[20:02:18] <n4dir> i think i heard/read so.
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2002[20:03:01] <wikan> n4dir: I was talking about <--- messages
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2004[20:03:20] <jmcnaught> shtrb: telepathy-ring, modem-manager-gui, and connman are listed by "apt-cache rdepends ofono", check those out I guess.
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2007[20:04:19] <wikan> when I said I feel like not an owner of my computer when I have systemd I mean 2 things
2008[20:04:49] <shtrb> jmcnaught, thank you
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2010[20:05:36] <wikan> 1. some systemd deamons runs for few seconds only every hour and I don't know why.
2011[20:05:37] <n4dir> if you use debian then you kinda have to use systemd, and there is not much use to complain or think about it. Just find a distribution or operating system which doesn't use it and call it a day.
2012[20:06:09] <jmcnaught> Learning systemd is also an option.
2013[20:06:37] <ratrace> wikan: nothing in systemd prevents you to find out what runs and "why" (is it a service, timer unit, mountpoint, ...), you just have to learn how to use it
2014[20:07:05] <wikan> 2. systemd is like a framework so it is hard to secure. It is like a bridge. For example DNS lookups. APP -> systemd -> systemd -> right-service -> network
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2016[20:08:07] <ratrace> wikan: systemd has a lot of hardening options that other pid1/process managers don't have
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2020[20:09:17] <wikan> yea. And I dont say systemd is bad. I am saing only that I don't like systemd and it is my personal opinion ;)
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2022[20:09:57] <ratrace> wikan: oh that's perfectly fine to dislike it. just base your opinion on facts, not myth.
2023[20:10:06] <n4dir> i'd care more for the info if it indeed uses more ressources, as i sure had the same impression.
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2025[20:10:21] <wikan> I use "firewall" to secure some accounts. Only allowed endpoints allowed. It is nightmare with systemd
2026[20:10:56] <ratrace> what is this... "firewall"
2027[20:11:42] <wikan> i wrote "firewall" because I am sleepy and forgot name of new pocket filtering module that replaces iptables ;)
2028[20:11:50] <ratrace> wikan: nft?
2029[20:11:55] <wikan> yea that one :D
2030[20:11:57] <ratrace> systemd is agnostic to network packet filter in use.
2031[20:12:06] <wikan> nope
2032[20:12:25] <wikan> nope if you have output policy set to drop ;)
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2034[20:12:42] <ratrace> a packet filter is a program like any other as far as systemd is concerned. the one exception to that will come in bullseye with systemd's version that allow BPF based filtering in service config
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2036[20:13:02] <ratrace> wikan: systemd doesn't intervene in packet filtering
2037[20:13:28] *** Quits: victorpr (~victorpr@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2038[20:13:35] <ratrace> there is currently no code path in systemd in debian that in any shape or form injects itself into packet filtering done by iptables or nft. in the future, it will allow BPF but that's optional
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2041[20:14:14] <wikan> ratrace: as I said maybe it is me (person who don't know systemd) or it is systemd fault but DNS for example is under 553 and proxies to 53 then to the NAT
2042[20:14:26] <ratrace> it will allow BPF programs be set for units, is what I mean so in that respect it will meddle with packet filtering, so to speak
2043[20:15:03] <ratrace> wikan: you're confusing some things here. you're under no obligation to use systemd-resolved resolver. (and even that has nothing to do with packet filtering)
2044[20:15:20] <wikan> well I had nameresolver under 53
2045[20:15:25] <ratrace> which program?
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2047[20:15:41] <wikan> systemd takes nameresolver role and started on 553
2048[20:16:01] <wikan> took
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2050[20:16:38] <wikan> so 553 previously was not blocked because I used policy allow for output
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2052[20:17:21] <wikan> I decided to jail all server user's I use to login to the server
2053[20:17:26] <ratrace> wikan: no. systemd-resolved program, that's part of the systemd the PROJECT (but not pid1 or process manager), does that and you can safely disable it and use whatever resolver you want.
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2055[20:17:35] <wikan> so you can ssh but can't connect to internet at all
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2058[20:18:34] <wikan> and I noticed, everytime I install systemd os, systemd has new services
2059[20:18:34] *** Quits: fstd (~fstd@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2060[20:18:37] <ratrace> systemd the project has many components that come with systemd the package, most of which you don't have to run or use and CAN be compiled out, but the maintainers of Debian chose to keep them.
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2062[20:18:53] <wikan> exactly
2063[20:19:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1148
2064[20:19:05] <wikan> and I want to run exactly THIS what I installed ;)
2065[20:19:06] <ratrace> so when you say "systemd" you really have to know which one you're talking about. pid1/process manager, the package, the project/github repo
2066[20:19:07] *** Quits: sinaowolabi (~Sina@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2067[20:19:36] <ratrace> wikan: so as you see, you DO have the control to run whatever you want, with some minor exceptions like journald which is always running, you can't disable it.
2068[20:20:13] <ratrace> wikan: so you installed a megaton of kernel modules you'll never use. isn't that the same?
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2070[20:21:18] <wikan> not sure still
2071[20:21:45] <ratrace> it's the same thing. packages come with widest possible options that the maintainers believe will cover most use cases. always has been the case, with or without systemd
2072[20:22:00] <wikan> I use no-install-recommends
2073[20:22:15] <ratrace> that's irrelevant, some dependencies are hard
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2076[20:22:51] <ratrace> like, for example, some programs that MAY use mysql backend will pull in some libs even though you'll never install or use mysql the _server_. sometimes hard dependencies are inevitable
2077[20:23:10] <ratrace> gentoo for example allows you to remove them during compilation with a framework that facilitates compilation options through use flags. so maybe gentoo is a better choice for you if you want 100% control over which components are installed for which program.
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2081[20:23:33] <wikan> ok look at dns example. By default systemd has it's own resolver. Somehow. When I install my own, systemd forwards to my own. Can detect.
2082[20:23:39] <wikan> but it is annoing for me
2083[20:23:49] <ratrace> wikan: systemd the PROJECT has a resolver yes. FreeBSD the PROJECT does too.
2084[20:23:54] <jmcnaught> systemd-resolved is not enabled by default on Debian.
2085[20:24:10] <wikan> i had enabled
2086[20:24:10] <ratrace> (FreeBSD the _BASE_ OS does, you always get it, want it or not, when you install the FreeBSD minimal OS)
2087[20:24:24] <wikan> probably dependency :D
2088[20:24:38] <ratrace> nope
2089[20:25:01] <wikan> init.d has not resolver. Well has but exactly this resolver I want to run.
2090[20:25:01] <ratrace> systemd-resolved is just one of several resolvers you can use and as jmcnaught said, not enabled by default. maybe you're using ubuntu where it IS default? :)
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2092[20:25:25] <ratrace> wikan: systed the process manager / pid (comparable to init.d) has no resolver either
2093[20:25:28] <wikan> well true, I used Ubuntu and it was installed by default.
2094[20:25:28] <ratrace> *systemd
2095[20:25:49] <wikan> maybe I am wrong about debian
2096[20:25:54] <wikan> if so then sorry
2097[20:26:00] <wikan> but no matter ;)
2098[20:26:01] <n4dir> I still think the best is to simply not use it, there is not much gain in discussing the pros and cons (or the other way around: just to use it). debian sure will stick to it for a while (as far i can tell)
2099[20:26:20] <wikan> n4dir: exactly
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2101[20:26:25] <ratrace> n4dir: until a better, functionally comparable replacement comes along
2102[20:26:58] <wikan> well systemd may be great for standard desktops
2103[20:27:02] <ratrace> but again, it's okay to not like or use systemd. perfectly valid opinion and desire. just know _why_ you dislike it.
2104[20:27:07] <n4dir> i heard of a new soundserver round the corner. Now that scares me ...
2105[20:27:10] <wikan> I love to configure real minimalic, bare os
2106[20:27:11] <jaami> how to tell debian that the bluetooth device is not a keyboard, its handfree?
2107[20:27:28] <ratrace> wikan: in fact, systemd is more useful to me on server, than desktop. I never interact with it on the desktop, and I interact with it constantly on the servers
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2109[20:27:47] <ratrace> n4dir: ah yes that RedHat's thingy.... whatsitcalled.... somethingwire
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2111[20:28:12] <n4dir> i could search at youtube "unfa", he just made a video about it. In case you really care.
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2113[20:28:20] <wikan> ratrace: Some people compile C sources to be small as possible. Hello world in 49b size.
2114[20:28:25] <wikan> I do the same with my os ;)
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2116[20:28:43] <wikan> probably this is main reason I dislike systemd :)
2117[20:28:46] <ratrace> wikan: that's okay. I love minimal code, for the functionality I want, as well. there is no altenative for systemd for the functionality that I want.
2118[20:29:00] <wikan> cool ;)
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2120[20:29:13] <wikan> I just wanted to explain my point of view. I am not a hater ;)
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2123[20:30:55] <n4dir> might be pipewire.
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2128[20:32:29] <wikan> one question
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2131[20:33:38] <wikan> why there is no command like "turn-lxc-on"? Asking because most ppl use Arch/Debian docs to enable lxc on the system. So they do the same steps every time then they install os.
2132[20:34:48] <jaami> what GUI is best for bluetooth settings?
2133[20:35:34] <ratrace> n4dir: pipewire is for vide, but I read recently that they're making another for audio
2134[20:35:42] <ratrace> *video
2135[20:37:29] *** PipeItToDevNull is now known as PipeItToDevSda
2136[20:37:45] <n4dir> i didn't listen that closely. sound is just voodoo, as far it's me
2137[20:38:53] <n4dir> that is: i don't really care if pulse, jack or whatever-is-new gives me headaches ... :-)
2138[20:39:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1142
2139[20:39:46] <ratrace> wikan: what does that do?
2140[20:40:56] <wikan> first steps to enable lxc for unprivileged users
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2142[20:42:47] <ratrace> wikan: can't you `lxc-start containername` on debian as unprivileged user? there is that issue with userns limitation on debian (because of security issues), does that prevent lxc-start?
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2147[20:44:47] <wikan> ratrace: there is no user mapping by default
2148[20:45:10] <ratrace> wikan: the userns limitation I mentioned then. it's disabled by default for security reasons
2149[20:45:13] <wikan> ratrace: and broken apparmor (but this is another type of issue)
2150[20:45:30] <ratrace> wikan: oh, what's broken? I use appArmor for almost all of the net facing services
2151[20:45:36] <ratrace> (yes, I wrote the profiles, default profiles suck)
2152[20:45:46] <ratrace> (sucky profiles !== broken, tho)
2153[20:46:01] <wikan> apparmor blocks unprivileget containers. Didn't find how to solve this problem.
2154[20:46:15] <ratrace> wikan: disable the profile?
2155[20:46:34] <ratrace> I don't use lxc so I can't check now which profile it is, but if apparmor is messing with it, then the profile needs amending.
2156[20:46:50] <wikan> I was fighting 4 days
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2158[20:46:56] <wikan> i removed apparmor :D
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2161[20:47:15] <ratrace> wikan: that's alternative to learning it and fixing the profile, okay :)
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2187[20:47:53] <wikan> I would learn and fix but the way how all errors are logged is nightmare
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2190[20:48:21] <ratrace> wikan: I find the audit trail very readable once you learn what the components are
2191[20:48:22] <wikan> and messages are mostly telling nothing
2192[20:48:43] <ratrace> they are, if you don't understand them.
2193[20:49:01] <wikan> i mean lxc
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2196[20:49:07] <ratrace> but the denials are logging the pid, the process name, command, the target object, and access method blocked. everything you need to know to amend the profile.
2197[20:49:08] <wikan> lxc messages are mostly usless
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2199[20:49:23] <ratrace> well, I don't know those :)
2200[20:49:38] <wikan> i found there is apparmor problem only because I did strace on lxc-start
2201[20:50:14] <wikan> and noticed weird behaviour like something is blocking here
2202[20:50:30] <ratrace> wikan: so for the future, if you work with apparmor, check the audit trail. you can use auditd, or journalctl _TRANSPORT=audit, or you can configure syslog to separate those into their own files (from the kern facility)
2203[20:51:01] <ratrace> wikan: unfortunately, default profiles for apparmor are terrible.
2204[20:51:12] <wikan> i created proble. More errors more problems. Some issues with apparmor tools on debian made me tired.
2205[20:51:17] * hmuller takes note to look for ratrace when learning apparmor
2206[20:51:23] <ratrace> security is hard.
2207[20:51:29] <wikan> true
2208[20:51:34] <ratrace> hmuller: sure, I use it extensively.
2209[20:51:40] <wikan> if you are lazy it is harder
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2211[20:52:44] <ratrace> hmuller: just don't ask me to armor the dbus APIs, that's uh.... yeah. :)
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2222[20:57:16] <hmuller> I'm taking time to learn/use the systems properly one at a time. Still need to spend time on journalctl, then maybe apparmor.
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2224[20:58:40] <sney> I've been gradually reading through the 'systemd for administrators' blog series on 0pointer.net
2225[20:59:09] <sney> I find a lot of systemd pretty intuitive (partly because I had already used SMF) but it's helping me with a more specific understanding
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2227[20:59:54] <akp55> AFOSI
2228[20:59:57] <akp55> whoops
2229[21:00:07] <akp55> whats a good resource to use to learn managing the rights in the container and how it maps to outside the container?
2230[21:00:39] <wikan> good question
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2232[21:01:06] <wikan> still have problems with accessing files ;)
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2234[21:01:32] <akp55> kinda. i can access them, i just dont want the rights outside the container to be changed
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2237[21:02:16] <wikan> i can access them too. But can't remove :D
2238[21:02:20] <wikan> i have to use root
2239[21:02:28] <ratrace> akp55: which rights? a container is "just" a namespace
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2241[21:03:14] <akp55> the rights on the directories i mount from outside the container to inside the container.
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2243[21:03:31] <akp55> like i've add the owner changed by them
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2245[21:04:07] <wikan> i think a lot depends on kernel version
2246[21:04:14] <akp55> 5.x
2247[21:04:20] <wikan> i suggest to use sshfs
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2249[21:04:29] <akp55> i'm using podman w/ cgroups v2
2250[21:04:52] <akp55> use sshfs to share a directory to inside the container?
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2252[21:04:59] <wikan> yea
2253[21:05:13] <wikan> i am lazy I would do that :D
2254[21:05:16] <ratrace> akp55: you can bind-mount across namespaces and change uid/gid mappings
2255[21:05:36] <akp55> ratrace: is there some docs i can look at for that?
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2257[21:06:33] <ratrace> akp55: best check with the container tool/framework you're using, as it will probably have its own facilities for that
2258[21:06:42] <akp55> kk
2259[21:06:56] <wikan> check arch docs
2260[21:07:01] <wikan> there is all what you need
2261[21:07:15] <ratrace> akp55: just a word of caution, messing with bind mounts like that can create security issues
2262[21:07:37] <ratrace> containers are primarily for isolation, and sharing data across namespaces goes against that
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2268[21:13:43] <Cheetz> I got a nvidia gt610 to drive an extra monitor alongside those driven by my already installed gtx 1660, which uses proprietary drivers. How do I install the gt610 in the same system and make them work without driver conflicts and other possible issues?
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2296[22:00:09] <petn-randall> wikan: If systemd really is so heavy, why is it used in practically all embedded systems?
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2298[22:01:02] <wikan> because todays embeded system is like 2000's PCs
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2301[22:01:32] <somiaj> sytemd is very modular (at build time) you can strip out almost everything you don't need, very nice for embeded systems
2302[22:01:37] <wikan> it is no longer tiny machine with very limited memory and slow cpu
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2304[22:02:34] <petn-randall> You also don't seem to understand DNS lookups. systemd is not involved.
2305[22:03:10] <wikan> yes it is. Listens on 553 port
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2308[22:03:30] <ratrace> sigh... that's not systemd the process manager or pid1
2309[22:03:37] <ratrace> I thought I explained the difference
2310[22:03:54] <petn-randall> Neither is that a default service on Debian.
2311[22:04:15] <ratrace> that's like saying gnu is involved in text editing because emacs belongs to the gnu project
2312[22:04:16] <petn-randall> ... nor a well-known port.
2313[22:04:59] <wikan> well I have said I don't know systemd. And I thought we finished this topic ;)
2314[22:05:12] <ratrace> btw, I thought resolved listened on port :53 BUT on 127.0.1.1 ?
2315[22:05:28] <ratrace> (by default)
2316[22:05:58] <greycat> the man page says 127.0.0.53
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2318[22:06:17] <ratrace> greycat: but port 53?
2319[22:06:23] <petn-randall> Also if you claim your PC doesn't belong to you anymore because you don't understand systemd, then I'd like to introduce you to the codebase of X11. :)
2320[22:06:26] <ratrace> (sorry not near a manpage right now)
2321[22:06:50] <greycat> I don't see the word "port" in the man page at all, except as part of the word "support".
2322[22:07:19] <ratrace> ah found it online... 127.0.0.53, and port 53 DNSStubListener
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2324[22:07:34] <ratrace> soooo 553 comes from.... the user?
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2327[22:09:04] <petn-randall> I don't see resolved configured on my Debian system.
2328[22:09:16] <ratrace> it's not default on Debian
2329[22:09:42] <ratrace> wikan is either using ubuntu or deliberately configured resolved to run
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