20[00:11:52] *** Quits: Matt12345 (~Matt12345@replaced-ip) (Quit: See you)
21[00:12:07] <Beggar> there are some pages there tlaking about
debug options, and the log output. Maybe it can help. anyways sorry
for poking in the issue.
27[00:14:57] <deleuze6> looks like there are two misleading
bits. one is the fact that the warnings in the log file tell me to
'dd if=/var/lib/dovecot/ssl-parameters.dat bs=1 skip=88 |
openssl dhparam -inform der > /etc/dovecot/dh.pem' when that
is what creates a 'too small' key'
28[00:15:05] <deleuze6> er, by key I meant dh params
30[00:15:54] <deleuze6> so the correct thing to do is ignore
that advice (and, presumably, default dovecot behaviour) and use the
'openssl dhparam -out /etc/dovecot/dh.pem 4096' instead
31[00:16:54] <deleuze6> the second misleading bit is that there
is '/etc/dovecot' as well as
'/usr/share/dovecot' and unfortunately they are not the
same but look very similar
32[00:17:36] <deleuze6> so maybe dovecot and debian need to get
together to figure out the right way to make the defaults saner
33[00:17:51] <deleuze6> and the docs on the web probably need
to provide some explicit instructions
36[00:18:48] <deleuze6> but in my case the net fix was to (1)
have dovecot point to things used by letsencrypt, and (2) generate
my own 4096 dh params file and put it in /etc/dovecot/dh.pem
37[00:19:09] <deleuze6> thanks all. I appreciate your help
56[00:44:22] <judd> Package dovecot version 1:2.1.7-7 was
uploaded by Jaldhar H. Vyas (Debian GNU/Linux) on 2013-02-05, last
changed by Jaldhar H. Vyas and maintained by Dovecot Maintainers.
57[00:44:46] <rant> thats still rather useless I see
58[00:45:58] *** Quits: amphiprions (~amphiprio@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
123[01:29:07] <useretail> azeem, login is disabled for this new
user (for obvious reasons). here is how it looks like in
/etc/passwd: myuser:x:140:144::/home/myuser:/usr/sbin/nologin
140[01:40:29] <Mathisen> im just gonna asume you have added a
repo you found online and hope it works..
141[01:40:43] <Mathisen> or is that original repos ?
142[01:41:03] <kreyren> yep praying to ignucius that it would
work
143[01:41:08] <kreyren> from upstream of mono
144[01:41:51] <Mathisen> well something does not match.. so you
would save yourself trouble to remove that package and repo and
install the one from debian own
206[01:53:51] <Toba> if there is a circuit board through the
hole in the case, you can take like clamshell packaging plastic and
cut to size a piece to shield the circuit from being shorted by the
steel epoxy
207[01:53:51] <kreyren> great wasn't sure if it's
going to work O.o
227[01:58:05] *** Quits: Haudegen (~quassel@replaced-ip) (Quit: Bin weg.)
228[01:58:15] <Toba> one thing i would advise, any area you are
about to jb-weld onto, first daub it with a cotton swab that has
isopropyl alcohol on it
229[01:58:23] <kreyren> i see any recommendations for me to
avoid?
230[01:58:29] <Toba> you don't want any oils on the surface
or it may interfere with the bond with the jb-weld
245[02:01:00] <Toba> I guess there is also a very liquidy
jb-weld kind, but i recommend the putty you cut a bit off the end of
the stick and then squish it together with your fingers
270[02:04:01] <Toba> I think a liquid when you're patching
a computer with circuits inside is a bad idea, at least without
knowing the details of what exactly you're patching with what
271[02:04:21] <kreyren> yep i was talking about liquid, but
i'm not sure what to use yet.. i will probably use liquid for
the parts for which i can make a mold and putty for these where i
miss lots of material alike
replaced-url
327[02:18:19] <SerajewelKS> hmm, why is the default
/media/cdrom0 suddenly being mounted noexec after the buster
upgrade? the fstab doesn't specify noexec.
360[03:08:22] <Beggar> I am starting go get kind of mentally
impaired here with this system. O.O
361[03:09:29] <Beggar> I really do not want to reinstall. But I
can not live without microphone. Not being able to record audio is
too much to me to bear.
364[03:11:47] <GenTooMan> I am mostly confused at this time.
365[03:12:10] <GenTooMan> beggar you broke your system? :D
366[03:13:45] <Beggar> I had an working system... then I
upgraded to Buster. Then I had some trouble but I could solve msot
of it, but then... yesterday morning I was in need to use bluetooth
and isntalled blueman and bluez, and they had pulseaudio as
dependency. I used the bluetooth adn after using I removed
pulseaudio and blueman and bluez. And at this point my microfone
stopped working.
367[03:15:31] <Beggar> I will reisntall the system eventually, I
was using it here since squeeze. and I am having trouble with some
stuff too that I would like to fix. But I prefer to wait until
Buster get more upgrades, then I can reinstall si clean here.
368[03:15:51] *** Quits: karakedi (~eAC53C340@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
369[03:17:11] <aaro> maybe just reinstall what you uninstalled
370[03:18:15] <aaro> or run alsamixer and F6 to select sound
card
371[03:18:20] <Beggar> aaro I tried it already. I even isntalled
pulseaudio (I do not use pulseaudio )
372[03:18:39] <friendlyGoat> there was a power outage, im
running Debian Stretch on another computer and after the power
outage i realized the computer no longer could connect to the
internet. it uses ethernet if that matters at all. when i try to run
sudo apt-get update this is what shows up
399[03:28:33] <Beggar> you can try ifdown enp1s8 and then ifup
enp1s8 and then dhclient enp1s8. but probably will need an
"killall dhclient" and "killall networkmanager"
before that. This maybe can give you soem useful info. also, you
said it was an poweroutage, maybe the problem is on the network
devices not in the computer. That is all I can say about it right
now.
400[03:28:35] <RisingTide> Hey I tried sending mail with exim4
and I get an error
446[03:47:09] <Beggar> i am trying to recreate the alsa
configuration here. I do not know it libasound is the right package.
I do not know what package creates /etc/alsa and /usr/alsa
447[03:47:23] <Beggar> It is trasnalted... but... let me try
448[03:48:19] <somiaj> anyways, I get a message that also says
that the package is valid but it cannot determine the match, this is
due to using multiarch here
449[03:48:24] <somiaj> so dpkg-reconfigure libasound2:amd64
455[03:48:54] <dpkg> You have to especially tell the packaging
system to reinstall config files because when they are gone, it is
assumed that you want them to stay deleted. "aptitude -o
DPkg::Options::='--force-confmiss' reinstall
$packagename" will restore them (man dpkg for details). If the
package uses <ucf> for config file management, ask me about
<ucf confmiss>.
456[03:49:04] <Beggar> dpkg_query error: --status needs a n
valid name for package but "libasound2" is not. ambiguous
package name "libasound2" with more than one stanza
installed.
457[03:49:04] <friendlyGoat> oh i rebooted and what you said to
do worked! i think its fixed now thank you
464[03:52:04] <Beggar> somiaj, thank you for point it out. I was
not awae that using multiarch lib would imply needing to specify
arch when dealingk with reconfigure.
474[04:04:29] *** Quits: ckur13 (~ckur13@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
475[04:04:46] <Beggar> I moved /usr/share/alsa to somewhere
elase adn tried the reconfigure on libasound and it did not
regenerated it. I also tried using the confmiss and nothing... then
I checked debian pakckage site and I found out that the correct
apckage is libasound2-data
511[04:24:53] <CrazedPanda> Hi. Im using Openvpn client from
shell in Buster. Same config files that are working fine on another
distro. Keeps timing out for inactivity. Tried keepalive parameters
10 60, and 10 120 which usually works. Neither help. Anything
specific to Debian that I should be doing? Ive already installed
Openresolv.
537[04:32:56] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: it might be worth
running a network capture. when you say that it's "working
fine on another distro," where is that other distro box? is it
on the same network segment, or is it behind a different router?
538[04:33:11] <somiaj> th_: the debian installer sometimes has
trouble with multiboot setups due to its hybrid nature.
539[04:33:17] <SerajewelKS> differing network conditions could
be responsible
540[04:33:39] <swift110> sup guys
541[04:34:26] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: note that keepalive is
a _server_ directive; using it on a client will not have any effect
542[04:34:37] <CrazedPanda> SerajewelKS : Same exact network and
access point. Both boxes side by side.
543[04:34:41] <SerajewelKS> hmm
544[04:34:56] <SerajewelKS> (side note, i've had much
better luck with tinc than openvpn)
548[04:36:26] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: my only suggestion at
this point is network capture, and try to run openvpn at a higher
verbosity level and see if those give you any clues
549[04:36:27] *** Quits: electro33 (uid613@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
550[04:36:46] <SerajewelKS> i've always found openvpn to be
a bit annoying in that when it works, it's fine, but when it
doesn't, it doesn't really try to help you figure out the
problem
557[04:39:23] *** Quits: qwas (~Android@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
558[04:41:09] <CrazedPanda> SerajewelKS : Yea Ive seen that
keepalive is used mostly for servers, but it is exactly what is
keeping my other client connection stable. If I remove it, it times
out. OK thank you, Ill try a net capture. Ive been wanting to try
tinc. I may have to now :)
560[04:41:29] <Lady_Aleena> Hello. I would like 2 packages
(libgoocanvas3 and python-pygoocanvas) that are in jessie, stretch,
and sid but not buster. What would be the best/easiest way to get
those packages?
585[04:45:59] <SerajewelKS> CrazedPanda: no joke, it used to be
easier to run three openvpns and bridge them together
586[04:46:01] <somiaj> Anyways, it appears the api has updated,
and I would use the new versions avaialble in buster, which is
gir1.2-goocanvas-2.0 -- this means the functions/code that uses it
will possibly need updated, but I think it is worth updating.
587[04:46:09] <SerajewelKS> than fiddle around with the
certificate crap
588[04:46:35] <jmcnaught> uRock: we don't encourage people
to download packages from random sources here
589[04:46:36] <Lady_Aleena> somiaj, I will give it a try and see
if it works.
609[04:58:12] <Beggar> thank you everyone for the pointings and
all the help. I will sleep now and try to solve it tomorrow. I ended
up reconfiguring almsot all libasound related stuff by now adn
nothing changed.
646[05:27:05] * uRock doesn't consider pkgs.org to be
"random". Anywho, the package management system should
show when a new package subxtitutes another.
698[06:09:46] *** chalcedny is now known as chalcedony
699[06:11:03] <rant> I've been experiencing scroll event
failure in chromium for months now both on stretch and now on
buster.. it seems to happen randomly and doesnt seem to matter what
site is loaded, it occurs WHILE scrolling suddenly scrolling stops
and will no longer work on that tab unless I refresh. I dont have
any thoughts as to cause, or how to go about troubleshooting it..
its clearly not hardware as scrolling still
700[06:11:10] <rant> works in other tabs and apps
701[06:11:36] <epony> does it happen with PGDN
702[06:11:46] <epony> ?
703[06:11:48] <rant> its super annoying but I've avoided
reporting it cause I dont know how to reproduce it for it to be of
any use
704[06:12:00] <rant> no, it only happens with a mouse or other
such device
705[06:12:08] <rant> I typically use my trackpoint to scroll
706[06:12:18] *** Quits: tempnicker (~tempnicke@replaced-ip) (Quit: i quit!)
707[06:12:23] <rant> however I did plug in a USB mouse to verify
it wouldnt scroll with that either when it occurs
708[06:13:06] <epony> Does it happen in other programs?
710[06:13:12] *** Quits: itamarst (uid165457@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
711[06:13:48] <rant> no, and when it occurs, its always while
actively scrolling it happens, it affects ALL pointing devices which
send scroll events, only the tab on which it occurs, and the
scrollbars and arrows or pgup/dn still work
712[06:14:00] <rant> and a refresh of the page always resolves
it
713[06:14:45] <rant> at first I thought it was a js thing.. but
today it happened on wikipedia which it never happened there before
so..
714[06:15:05] <rant> I'm not really sure its due to any
script on the page as it doesnt seem to matter which page is loaded
715[06:15:58] <epony> Maybe you should report this to
chrome(ium) dev support..
717[06:16:37] <chalcedony> it would seem good to talk to them
about it
718[06:16:44] <rant> I'm not familiar with their systems..
I only know debians.. and I know without routinely being able to
reproduce the issue resolution is unlikely
719[06:17:45] <chalcedony> rant, it maybe something they already
know how to fix, or something that other people said the same thing
about, but at least they should know.
731[06:21:01] <rant> cause it just happened before I started
bitching about it and it just happened again in one of my open
tabs.. I can get it to do it.. and I'd like to gather more info
while its acting up
734[06:22:08] <rant> all the troubleshooting I know how to do
would/should be irrelevant.. attaching xev to the window wont help,
cause I know its getting the events.. it works on all the other open
tabs right now
756[06:32:29] *** Quits: tyranny12 (~blarg@replaced-ip) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
757[06:32:54] <epony> The problems are sometimes with the newest
CPUs that have integrated graphics and some of the newest hottest
gaming motherboards and video cards with Windows only drivers..
758[06:33:12] <chalcedony> yes
759[06:33:26] <chalcedony> but this one does say it supports
Ubuntu .. so it can't be windows only
768[06:38:10] <epony> Disregard the old guides suggestion, it
was for picking your custom hardware part by part (and those are
predating the kernel modesetting for graphics and also integrated
GPUs in the CPU).
769[06:38:30] <chalcedony> ahh
770[06:38:49] <chalcedony> parts were supposed to come friday..
still waiting
771[06:38:53] <epony> Check specific info on Debian's web
site for Ryzen models KMS support.
800[07:09:33] <aypea[1]> hey. trying to pin iptables to
buster-backports but am failing. if I have "Package:
iptables" it fails but "Package: *" works. What am I
missing here?
801[07:09:38] *** Quits: b (coffee@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
802[07:10:01] *** Quits: nealon (~hamilton@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
803[07:15:31] <chalcedony> epony i'm not getting anything
searching for Ryzen on the debian.org page?
811[07:21:58] <epony> chalcedony, well, there are details how to
setup amdgpu driver, the firmware etc, but I did not find a list of
models "known-to-work" so..
835[07:41:00] <ealfonso> hi. my thinkpad x1 carbon fingerprint
reader does not appear to be recognized by debian (sudo
fprintd-enroll => list_devices failed: No devices available). is
there a good way to troubleshoot this, or is this a known problem?
1021[09:54:22] <dpkg> Logs are what you should always check when
you have a problem, they live in /var/log/ . For #debian logs, ask
me about <irclog>.
1022[09:54:30] <rant> dpkg, irclog
1023[09:54:30] <dpkg> extra, extra, read all about it, irclog is
#debian on <freenode> is logged at
replaced-url
1024[09:54:35] <dionysus69> ok I think I have asked this before
but still dealing with this problem, my system has 32gb ram but with
only 10 occupied, I had 4gb of swap used
1025[09:54:43] <rant> Zen-Follower: ^ knock yourself out
1026[09:54:53] <dionysus69> can I somehow tell system not to use
swap if ram is not full?
1027[09:55:32] <Haohmaru> there was some trick about this
1028[09:55:37] <Haohmaru> like a one-time trick
1029[09:55:53] <ayekat> you can set swappiness, but that's
more of an indicator, and the kernel may still choose to ignore it,
I think
1032[09:56:05] <dpkg> A number of Linux kernel developers debated
"swappiness" - exploring when an application should or
should not be swapped out, versus reclaiming memory from the cache.
replaced-url
1033[09:56:26] <ayekat> you can also just disable swap, which
would be a hard-disable - but then what would be the point of having
a swap in the first place
1034[09:56:36] <dionysus69> yea I know caching is a thing, but I
dont get what's the point of swapping if memory is available
1035[09:57:01] <dionysus69> there are certain applications who do
swap on purpose not to waste ram
1040[09:57:27] <rant> likely because something has not been used
and the kernel has determined that it would gain more performance by
swapping that out and allowing for more cache or such
1041[09:57:54] <dionysus69> ah ok, maybe because I left pc
running over the weekend
1042[09:57:57] <dionysus69> 3 days in fact
1043[09:57:58] <ayekat> I don't think userspace applications
get to decide whether they will be swapped out
1044[09:57:58] <Haohmaru> *cough* *cough* kde sux *cough*
1045[09:58:09] <Zen-Follower> if you have a ssd or nvme and
enough RAM, you can go without a swap partition
1046[09:58:30] <rant> dionysus69: I think your choice of programs
is the issue.. I only have 8GB ram and I never seem to use more than
half of it and haven't swapped since I got this machine
1047[09:58:33] * ratrace wonders how having ssd or nvme counts in this
equation
1048[09:58:36] <ayekat> why is ssd/nvme relevant for not having
swap
1049[09:58:41] <dionysus69> I do have swap partition but on HDD,
not on SSD, even though I have SSD, didnt think about it when I was
partitioning
1050[09:59:01] <Zen-Follower> because it wears them down
1051[09:59:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1532
1052[09:59:11] <ratrace> nah that's a myth
1053[09:59:32] <ayekat> Zen-Follower: no, how is having an SSD a
condition for being able to remove the swap partition?
1054[09:59:33] <dionysus69> HDD has to be worn even more then
1055[09:59:46] <ratrace> it used to be true in the very early
days with ssd lifetimes being much much shorter anyway
1056[09:59:46] <ayekat> there's a logic knot in there - also
yeah, SSD wearout is a thing from the past
1057[10:00:03] <Haohmaru> is it?
1058[10:00:05] <ratrace> these days ssd can happily survive
writing of hundreds of TB of data
1112[10:10:10] <dionysus69> I am pretty sure you can turn off all
animations on kde, but somehow for some reason, they dont annoy me
1113[10:10:15] <Zen-Follower> I guess in the end it all comes
down to choose one wm-library (GTK/QT) and stay clear of the other,
which most people fail, 'cos there's at least one program
from "the other side" they miss on their own so one ends
up installing both libraries and both eat their share of hdd-space
and ram
1114[10:10:27] <Haohmaru> i use a panel from xfce, cuz it has
fancier clock and cpu/ram meters, i still use the lxde panel for the
actual start menu
1115[10:10:51] <Ticho> yes, yes, but which desktop environment
can pee the farthest?
1131[10:13:35] <Zen-Follower> but that's a matter of taste
and preference, so it's a neverending pointless debate ppl
bring up, just because they like arguing ^^
1132[10:14:13] <rant> thats using the machine more than I'd
ever realistically be using it.. and I'm still not putting a
dent in my memory
1136[10:14:51] <Ticho> no, the root cause is people
over-identifying with the labels or brands they use, so they take it
as a personal insult if someone says something bad about the
label/brand
1137[10:15:13] <Zen-Follower> if you want to bring your system to
high ram usage, you need to do some video-editing, I guess
1142[10:16:36] <dionysus69> rant: I dont use chrome/ium
1143[10:16:37] <rant> I could've loaded audio into audacity,
been running ffmpeg trasncoders.. etc and still not have gotten much
higher in usage
1144[10:16:57] <ratrace> rant: now do the same in gnome. i dare
ya :)
1145[10:17:10] * Zen-Follower wonders, if he's ever gonna run out
of his 14G of RAM
1146[10:17:17] <rant> dionysus69: yes, well as I said your choice
of programs are probably the problem.. I had 3 different browsers
running in that screenshot
1147[10:17:27] <rant> and that windows browser is ancient.. like
FF 45 or something
1159[10:19:18] <rant> dionysus69: right.. I was illustrating that
your issues with ram/swap when you have 4x my hardware is probably
due to your choice of programs cause I can ride this machine hard..
its a laptop no less.. and running on battery right now
1172[10:20:55] <rant> dionysus69: closely examine the apps you
use and your swappiness params..
1173[10:21:38] <dionysus69> ok different problem for my laptop,
recently the audio it transmits through speakers and bluetooth
connected devices has dropped like 3x, but aux headphone jack
produces good old sound
1174[10:22:10] <rant> dionysus69: install pavucontrol and look
into the settings
1175[10:22:18] <dionysus69> I do have it
1176[10:22:32] <dionysus69> I also looked in alsamixer
1177[10:22:38] <dionysus69> all settings are on 100%
1178[10:22:43] <dionysus69> still very low volume
1179[10:22:46] <rant> you can change volume on a per-device and
per app basis.. in pa and you can go over 100%
1185[10:24:02] <dionysus69> dunno I will come back to this when I
am on my laptop then, atm I will just take a break :D
1186[10:24:16] <rant> many bluetooth devices are rather crappy
commodity items.. not real quality audio for much other than
wireless voice applications
1187[10:24:35] <rant> the ones that are good, are expensive :P
1188[10:24:45] <dionysus69> I am talking about bose :D they used
to work great, then one day the volume went down
1189[10:25:05] <dionysus69> on my phone they still work great, it
means my pc bluetooth thing has same thing wrong with it as with
speakers
1256[10:55:03] <vlt> Hello. Every couple of days (on average 5 to
15) my Debian server isn't reachable by network anymore. On the
serial console I can see a lot of network is down/up messages every
few seconds. Of the things I tried (including rmmod/modprobe igb)
only rebooting solves the problem.
1257[10:55:22] <vlt> This behaviour didn't change after I
updated from Debian 9 to 10 last week.
1258[10:55:36] *** Quits: TomyWork (~TomyLobo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1259[10:55:45] <vlt> Any idea what could cause this?
replaced-url
1262[10:57:15] <alkisg> dionysus69: re: swap: suppose a kde
application has a memory leak; and it fills 32gb ram; this then
would cause other apps to write to swap; then suppose you close the
problematic app and RAM is reclaimed; the swap would still not be
released until you run swapoff -a; swapon -a
1263[10:57:28] *** Quits: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
1264[10:58:14] *** Joins: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip)
1276[10:59:45] <rant> vlt: may want to try a newer kernel and if
problem persists, forward that upstream to kernel devs, but for now
you can file that against the kernel you're using on the debian
bts
1280[11:04:19] <vlt> rant: That NIC in that very machine worked
flawlessly since 2011 with various Debian versions. Maybe the
problems were introduced with Debian 9. Hmmm ...
1330[11:26:52] <pragomer> hi. general question. meanwhile I have
many so called "dotfiles" and configs in my homefolder. I
am thinking about registration at e.g. gilab or github so that I can
clone these configs to my new installs (i do often fresh installs).
is this a recommended way or what whould you say?
1332[11:27:04] *** bpsecret- is now known as bpsecret
1333[11:28:20] <themill> ,i vcsh
1334[11:28:21] <judd> Package vcsh (misc, optional) in
buster/amd64: Version Control System for $HOME - multiple Git
repositories in $HOME. Version: 1.20151229-1; Size: 18.7k;
Installed: 52k; Homepage:
replaced-url
1335[11:28:44] <obliviancandy> Hey, what terminal emulator do you
guys use?
1336[11:29:06] <colo-work> rxvt-unicode
1337[11:29:07] <themill> (be careful with putting things on a
public git hoster that shouldn't be there)
1344[11:30:30] <rant> personally I'm perfectly happy keeping
my own backups
1345[11:30:34] <pragomer> how would you realize this? i have even
a homepage and so my own domain where I could put these files into a
subfolder that isnt crawled
1356[11:34:04] <ratrace> the backup script collects some system
settings too, dpkg selections, etc... in case I'll need it.
1357[11:34:21] <pragomer> ok, so I think I will try to use rsync
on my own sftp domain.
1358[11:34:35] <colo-work> I have gitolite3 installed on a Debian
server in my home for my dotfiles-repo, and use restic to perform
backups.
1359[11:34:44] <ayekat> git is practical because you get history
1360[11:35:13] <ayekat> i.e. I can still dig out some
old/forgotten/deleted config from 2013ish, and knowing that,
I'm not too conservative about keeping stuff around that I
don't need
1379[11:39:02] <rant> you can also avoid it by never making it
remotely possible.. I've many times removed my camera,
recompiled my kernel without any support for such things, and then
still put electrical tape over the hole :P
1380[11:39:34] <rant> and I can be pretty damn sure nobody used
it for remote surveillance.. I didnt need to make sure I wasnt doing
anything compromising
1381[11:39:47] <rant> the rule is don't CYA, do it 3 times
1382[11:39:58] <rant> because the LAW is, anything that can
happen, will
1386[11:40:23] <ayekat> yeah, depends if you care about sharing
your configuration with other people, I guess
1387[11:40:30] <ayekat> but again, using git doesn't imply
it's public
1388[11:40:59] <rant> I see the utility in the whoe git thing,
and I know people do it, I think I've even seen before software
specifically for this.. I dont recall what its called offhand..
1389[11:41:10] <rant> and I imagine you could encrypt it
beforehand with similar results
1390[11:41:17] <rant> but I'm still not gonna do it :P
1413[11:45:40] <ZaZaGX> i installed Debian, but it won't let
me do sudo apt-get update
1414[11:46:12] <ayekat> too bad
1415[11:46:30] <Mathisen> ZaZaGX, an error message would help...
1416[11:46:51] <rant> ZaZaGX: I'm sorry to hear that.. you
need to be more specific.. sudo isn't installed by default on
debian unless you do not choose a root password
1417[11:47:08] <ZaZaGX> can't do sudo, it will be reported
1425[11:48:52] <ratrace> no need, the sudo group is already set
up by default; just usermod -a -G sudo yourusername
1426[11:49:02] <leni536> is sudo installed by default? As I
remember I had to install it.
1427[11:49:16] <ayekat> leni536: depends if you set a root
password when installing
1428[11:49:16] <ratrace> it seems to be on buster
1429[11:49:44] <ayekat> (or used to depend, at least - it used to
be that if you set no root password, it would install sudo and add
the first user to the sudo group)
1430[11:50:15] <Mathisen> just add yourself only diffrence with
visudo is it the syntax checking
1566[13:24:15] <FinalX> think we might switch these boxes to
xenial for the time being instead, and then later it's somebody
else's problem to upgrade :p
1584[13:34:28] <mrig> I seem to be getting a few hundred
microseconds delay before a couple of my keyboard keys register
being pressed, this is only on a usb keyboard not on the laptop
keys. Could the update to Buster and Wayland be causing this?
1585[13:34:58] <mrig> the h key and the arrow up key, curiously.
1616[13:55:39] <Guifle> hello, I asked here whether debian 10 was
really ready, and if it would run smoothly. someone here said, yes.
I installed it, and a number of things don't work.
1617[13:55:51] <Guifle> I can't call programs from the
command line
1618[13:56:07] <themill> real commands and real output would be
sensible
1619[13:56:22] *** Quits: gnumdk (~gnumdk@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1620[13:56:24] <Guifle> 'unable to init server: Could not
connect: Connection refused'
1657[14:01:38] <rant> jelly: heh.. yeah well I'd but 0bin on
there for the paranoid people cause at least it didnt have popups,
ads, etc like pastebin.com
1658[14:01:39] <AppAraat> jelly: "Paste expirations (or lack
thereof) are approximate and not guaranteed" :(
1662[14:03:15] <pyfgcr> Guifle: I think that wayland doesn't
allow you to run GUI stuff as root, but you can try with pkexec
1663[14:03:16] <AppAraat> but it's all text :D
1664[14:03:18] <themill> Guifle: It might be that you need to run
an X session rather than a wayland to get these things to run as
root... but also, see if there are ways of doing this not as root.
It's not a good plan
1665[14:03:40] <Guifle> jelly, how do I switch to the latter?
1666[14:03:41] <AppAraat> then again if I want somewhat of a
permanence I should probably web-archive it
1667[14:03:42] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1687[14:09:26] <pyfgcr> I have a key on my keyboard marked with a
moon, I often press it by accident and the behaviour is like if
'poweroff' was called
1688[14:09:47] <jelly> the dreaded sleep button
1689[14:09:53] <pyfgcr> trying to get the code with xev is
probably not a good idea
1690[14:10:02] <Guifle> it'd be great to be able to use F12
again, though :)
1721[14:17:58] <pyfgcr> ah, I guess the point is
HandlePowerKey=poweroff in logind.conf, but I actually only want to
disable the keyboard key, not the actual power key, that is too
handy
1722[14:18:01] <jelly> Guifle, maybe guake does not work with
waylang either?
1730[14:19:29] <Guifle> jelly, I just noticed that F12 works when
the current window is the web browser, but it doesn't when it
is file manager or any other.
1744[14:24:58] <epony> on my laptop, there is no physical suspend
switch, but the Fn-F1 combo (Zzz) puts the machine to sleep,
hybernation works too, and the power button goes for a graceful
shutdown, the lid close can be configured to do suspend, hybernate
or nothing. No changes required to have this, just good ACPI in
#OpenBSD.
1745[14:25:54] <themill> You do realise that's dependent
more on your hardware than the OS.
1788[14:37:59] <jmd> What's the holdup getting gettext-0.20
into sid?
1789[14:38:25] <pyfgcr> Guifle: probably only the current buster
version is affected by this bug. try downgrading theCorvus package
1790[14:38:26] <greycat> !debian-next
1791[14:38:26] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for
testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not*
on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is
invite only)." it means you did not read it's on
irc.oftc.net.
1801[14:42:29] <pyfgcr> epony: interesting; however, on any
laptop I had, Fn+<stuff> keys are managed by the
driver/firmware directly. And btw, this is a sun type 7 keyboard
(usb), not the one on my laptop
1812[14:45:18] <epony> pyfgcr, that goes to confirm the opposite
of what themill insisted (that it's the hardware more than the
OS ensuring these things work), while my opinion is that hardware
does have to work, but typically the issues are in the OS / firmware
/ ACPI / user setup.
1814[14:45:35] <ryouba> i while back i apt upgrade'd and
there was a message instructing me how to move apache to php-fpm
7.3. how can i get that message back? (i'd like to do that now)
1820[14:47:05] <epony> hence the example given with #OpenBSD
setup, where it just behaves correctly and sometimes even better
handling of these (power management) in comparison with Windows
(that the hardware makers test for nearly always exclusively)..
1821[14:47:25] <epony> ;-)
1822[14:47:37] <epony> pressure point applied
1823[14:47:40] *** Quits: afidegnum (~isodec@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
1824[14:47:53] <Guifle> pyfgcr, thank you, I will try it
1836[14:51:53] <pyfgcr> epony: in this case, it is most probably
your keyboard giving the right keycodes; apperently my key is called
SunPowerSwitch, and its intended behavior is poweroff, even on sun
(now oracle) systems
1881[15:09:04] <centrix> However I get a username/password
browser prompt
1882[15:09:09] <epony> one of the reasons people tend to pick
IBM's otherwise proprietary, overpriced and not any different
in terms of reliability hardware (albeit with a bit better longevity
and serviceability, if you can find "that special" part)
1883[15:09:39] <centrix> I also checked
"/var/lib/samba"
1895[15:11:58] <pyfgcr> epony: I'm prety sure it is managet
by systemd, before it even reaches X/xev
1896[15:12:34] <epony> pyfgcr, most probably.. with desktops and
"workstation"^W overpriced desktops, it's much more
the software at fault than acpi-firmware
1900[15:14:13] <jstolarek> I have two encrypted partitions and
after upgrade to Buster one of them (/home) is mounted automatically
at boot, without asking for password. How do I turn that off? Not
asking for a password at boot defeats the purpose of encryption :-/
1922[15:20:35] <karlpinc> jstolarek: I'm not using buster,
but LUKS requires some password to unlock the data. Do you have the
same password on both partitions?
1923[15:21:02] <xbow> y0™
1924[15:21:08] <jstolarek> karlpinc: yes
1925[15:21:19] <pyfgcr> epony: it's not really a fault of
anything, I think it is the intended behavior, I'm just trying
to change it
1926[15:21:54] *** Quits: pyfgcr (~pyfgcr@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1928[15:22:17] <karlpinc> jstolarek: Then there's probably
some magic in the password prompter in the initramfs that's
trying the same password and not prompting you if it works.
1929[15:22:52] <NetTerminalGene> jstolarek, did you create a luks
key file?
1930[15:23:13] <jelly> hans_, debian doesn't really have hwe
stacks anyway
1932[15:23:24] <jstolarek> NetTerminalGene: no. Up until now (i.e
upgrade from Stretch to Buster) I was always prompted for both
passwords
1933[15:23:35] <karlpinc> jstolarek: You've got 8 key slots
with LUKS, so that gives you 8 passwords. (The point being that the
actual key is encrypted using the passwords in the slots.)
1934[15:23:54] <epony> pyfgcr, must have worked as unexpected
then (you're gone)
1935[15:24:01] <hans_> jelly, oh, well Ubuntu does and i always
just thought they inherited it from Debian, guess not
1938[15:24:28] <jstolarek> karlpinc: if I do cryptsetup luksDump
on both devices they only show Key Slot 0 as being enabled and the
remaining 7 slots are disabled
1939[15:24:36] <karlpinc> jstolarek: You could use another key
slot with a different password. If that works (manually, as root)
then you can remove the key slot that's got the same password
as the other partition.
1940[15:25:13] <karlpinc> jstolarek: Or you could try to figure
out what's prompting for the password and read its man page or
otherwise see if it is configurable.
1941[15:25:49] <jstolarek> karlpinc: if you're right that
there is some magic going on that reuses the same password then I am
fine with that - it still requires a password and I can only blame
myself that both are identical
1942[15:28:33] *** Quits: kreyren (~kreyren@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1943[15:28:47] <deleuze6> Hi all, I recently upgraded from
stretch to buster. Now I cannot read man pages, which is really
frustrating. e.g. 'man apt' -> ' Manual page
apt(8) line ?/? (END) (press h for help or q to quit)' with no
text and then 'man: command exited with status 1: (cd
/usr/share/man && /usr/lib/man-db/zsoelim) | [...]'
when I hit 'q'
1944[15:29:10] <deleuze6> what is happening? It looks like the
upgrade broke something about the pager used by man.
1973[15:37:49] <deleuze6> greycat: as far as I can tell, it
happens with all packages. I have tried many different types of
things with man entries and they all behave this way now.
1975[15:39:23] <greycat> OK, the next thing I would try is
reinstalling the man-db package, just because I can't think of
anything else to try except strace-ing the entire chain of programs.
1976[15:40:14] <karlpinc> jstolarek: See zless
/usr/share/doc/cryptsetup/README.Debian.gz. You can probably look at
the changelog there and check for the change in functionality, or
wherever "askpass" comes from. (Or maybe it's in the
referenced initramfs readme, dunno.) Anyway, the changelog should
give you more info.
1977[15:40:18] <greycat> your zsoelim thing from your error
message is also in that package
1978[15:40:40] <Fox> deleuze6: does `update-alternatives
--display pager` look ok ?
1984[15:41:57] <namll> hello, I have a local server that when i
reboot it sometimes it connects to the network wired through enp3s0
and sometimes it doesnt. Usually when It doesn't connect i just
reboot again and it connects.
2007[15:47:41] <roylaprattep> except the one i installed
manually, like plex, unrar and gnump3d
2008[15:47:47] *** Quits: woenx (~quassel@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2009[15:47:53] <deleuze6> karlpinc: ah, good idea. I had looked
('man broken after buster upgrade' and similar was not so
useful so I gave up too easily)
2010[15:48:06] <deleuze6> I found this:
replaced-url
2011[15:48:16] <jelly> roylaprattep, refine your search to avoid
those three, then replace "search" in the command with
"purge" or "remove"
2013[15:48:44] <xbow> deleuze6: did you try to recreate the
mandb?
2014[15:48:46] <deleuze6> I am not using ubuntu, but the advice
worked for me. that said, the solution seems to be about disabling
apparmor; not sure this is a good idea?
2015[15:49:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1569
2016[15:49:27] <deleuze6> xbow: how would I do that? (by the way,
the 'aa-disable /usr/bin/man' solution worked, although I
am not sure about its implications)
2017[15:49:29] <roylaprattep> jelly: how?
2018[15:49:37] <themill> deleuze6: does
"MAN_DISABLE_SECCOMP=1 man man" work?
2019[15:49:40] <deleuze6> themill: (for the record the locales
were fine)
2031[15:51:11] <roylaprattep> jelly: not exactly no, can you
explain?
2032[15:51:32] <roylaprattep> installed package that are
not~ODebian?
2033[15:51:54] <deleuze6> themill: no. both 'man man'
and 'MAN_DISABLE_SECCOMP=1 man man' break after I
'aa-enforce /usr/bin/man', and both work after I run
'aa-disable /usr/bin/man'
2047[15:53:56] <jelly> roylaprattep, off the top of my head, that
might be !~ngrump3d
2048[15:54:01] <deleuze6> I say this after having spent hours
yesterday dodging webpages encouraging me to disable security before
determining (on this channel) that the right solution was to
regenerate dh parameters for my imapd setup, which had begun
complaining about short keys
2060[15:56:02] *** Quits: endstille (~endstille@replaced-ip) (Quit: I'll be back.)
2061[15:56:45] <deleuze6> karlpinc: I don't know. Actually I
first determined this was a problem after rebooting following the
upgrade to buster.
2062[15:57:02] <deleuze6> (which might suggest that rebooting
does not fix the problem, although I have not tested it carefully)
2063[15:57:29] <roylaprattep> jelly: how to i add not to search
for gnump3d
2064[15:57:37] <roylaprattep> i am trying but it doesnt work
2065[15:58:35] <jstolarek> karlpinc: thanks. Can't see
anything obvious there
2066[15:58:36] <deleuze6> karlpinc: I also note that Message #37
of that ticket says that the problem (for which rebooting was a
candidate solution) was fixed as of man-db 2.8.0-2, whereas I am
running 2.8.5-2
2067[15:58:50] <karlpinc> deleuze6: Sounds worth a bug report....
2068[15:58:57] <jelly> roylaprattep, just append to the same
string does not work? aptitude search '~i(!~ODebian)
!~ngnump3d'
2069[15:58:57] <roylaprattep> jelly: first, aptitude search
'~i !~ODebian'm what does it ask exactly to the system?
2072[15:59:33] <greycat> deleuze6: just for the record, you did
"apt full-upgrade" or "apt-get dist-upgrade" all
the way to buster, and there are no other issues?
2073[15:59:34] <karlpinc> deleuze6: Yah. They closed and archived
the bug. But it, or one of its close relations, still seems to be
biting you.
2077[16:00:24] <jelly> roylaprattep, match packages that are ~i
installed, AND that are ! NOT ~ODebian available from any repo with
Origin set to Debian
2078[16:00:26] <deleuze6> greycat: I ran 'apt-get
dist-upgrade', yes
2079[16:00:38] <deleuze6> karlpinc: indeed that would seem to be
the case.
2080[16:00:51] <jstolarek> karlpinc: but I just made a simple
experiment. During boot I misspelled password for my data partition
and them I got asked for a password for my /home partition (and then
once again for a correct password for data partition)
2085[16:01:15] <jstolarek> so all seems to be fine, i.e. one
still needs to provide a password to access my partitions
2086[16:01:26] <karlpinc> jstolarek: That's where it says
that "askpass" is doing the password asking, along with
something else it references that's in the initramfs package.
(IIRC) So now that you know what's asking, you can look into
what changed in the program that's asking.
2087[16:01:29] <greycat> hans_: it hasn't changed.
2088[16:01:32] <greycat> !buster su
2089[16:01:32] <dpkg> The <su> command changed in buster:
it no longer overrides the PATH variable. See
replaced-url
2090[16:01:36] <roylaprattep> is it safe to remove these
packages, i issued the command "aptitude search
'~i(!~ODebian) !~ngnump3d !~nplexmediaserver
!~nunrar'"
2098[16:02:13] <greycat> hans_: are you using "su"?
2099[16:02:17] <hans_> yes
2100[16:02:19] <greycat> !buster su
2101[16:02:19] <dpkg> The <su> command changed in buster:
it no longer overrides the PATH variable. See
replaced-url
2102[16:02:23] <jelly> roylaprattep, then go ahead and try to
remove them. Some might be dependencies for other packages, or not,
so read carefully what aptitude is saying
2103[16:02:23] <hans_> ohhh
2104[16:02:24] <hans_> why
2105[16:02:27] <hans_> why doesn't it do that?
2106[16:02:32] <greycat> because debian developers are idiots
sometimes
2123[16:04:39] <jelly> roylaprattep, that reasoning is not right.
The package management system simply won't remove packages that
are set to manually installed, no matter where they come from.
2124[16:04:44] <Haohmaru> su su sudo su su SU SUUUUUUUU
2132[16:05:18] <hans_> alkisg, yeah i think -i is portable
between both debian and ubuntu
2133[16:05:28] <greycat> alkisg: ALL of these are on the wiki
page that the bot has triggered twice
2134[16:05:30] <roylaprattep> jelly i know that gnump3d and
plexmediaserver had no dependencies
2135[16:05:32] <jelly> roylaprattep, doing cleanup afterwards is
a normal part of the release upgrade, and is, I believe, documented
in the release notes
2136[16:05:43] <alkisg> Sorry wasn't following closely
2137[16:05:49] <roylaprattep> i did the cleanup
2138[16:06:08] <hans_> > hans is not in the sudoers file. This
incident will be reported.
2139[16:06:09] *** Joins: Prints (~333@replaced-ip)
2140[16:06:19] <roylaprattep> whats the dpkg command to search
for obsolete packages after dist-upgrade?
2141[16:06:27] *** Quits: qwas (~Android@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2142[16:06:36] <hans_> nvm
2143[16:06:37] <jelly> roylaprattep, dpkg and apt do not know
where those came from once they're installed, they also do not
know whether you have, say, locally compiled binaries or scripts
that depends on old packages.
2145[16:06:51] <hans_> roylaprattep, i don't know, but my
best guess would be: apt autoremove
2146[16:06:53] <roylaprattep> jelly: ok
2147[16:06:59] <jelly> !obsolete
2148[16:06:59] <dpkg> If you remove a repository from your
sources.list (e.g. removing <dmm>), then you should check what
packages you have installed from the other repository. Synaptic and
aptitude have a "Obsolete and Locally Created Packages"
list. Or, "aptitude search ~o". Note this doesn't
include packages that exist in the repo at a different version to
the one you have installed; see <not available> <list
repositories>.
2149[16:07:13] <Haohmaru> roylaprattep synaptic shows them in a
section
2151[16:08:14] <roylaprattep> someone gave me the exact same
command but for dpkg a few days ago
2152[16:09:12] <greycat> roylaprattep: dpkg does not have the
CONCEPT of "obsolete" packages. Aptitude and synaptic do,
because they CREATE that concept themselves by comparing the
installed packages against the theoretically available packages.
2155[16:09:50] <jelly> roylaprattep, dpkg does not know about
repositories, it'd be rather hard to provide an equivalent
2156[16:10:08] <jelly> unless you go back to dselect and
/var/lib/dpkg/available
2157[16:10:28] <hans_> why do i need to re-login to ssh for sudo
to notice that "hans" has become a member of the group
"sudo" ? if you're not a member of sudo when
ssh'ing in, then add yourself to sudo on a different terminal,
then try to run sudo again, sudo won't notice that you're
a member on the existing terminal, but if you ssh back in, sudo
knows, it's kinda weird
2158[16:10:47] <jelly> hans_, because group memberships are
applied at login time.
2162[16:11:22] <colo-work> what do you think are the chances of
getting Debian Buster onto one of these (with proper support for all
the integrated hardware)?
replaced-url
2163[16:11:28] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2165[16:11:36] *** Quits: JohnML (~john1@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2166[16:11:46] <jelly> colo-work, depends on how closed the boot
loader is.
2167[16:11:52] <roylaprattep> jelly: ok thx
2168[16:12:00] <roylaprattep> jelly: really appreciated man
2169[16:12:01] <greycat> Users do not have privileges. Processes
have privileges. When you login, your login shell or session is
infused with privileges based on the passwd/group files, and those
are passed down to everything you run within that session.
2183[16:14:19] <ohwowlol> jelly: its 50/50 indeed. but I highly
doubt it wont work.
2184[16:14:35] <ohwowlol> Ive bought my fair share of those SoC
types, its most likely running linux even better
2185[16:14:37] <jelly> it certainly won't be an OOTB
experience
2186[16:14:52] <ohwowlol> they dont care about Secureboot at all.
that was the experience I had with them
2187[16:15:40] <deleuze6> karlpinc, greycat: thanks for your
help. I must add that while I appreciate the security hardening
encouraged by Debian buster, it would benefit from some clearer
signposting and easier onramps to the better security.
2188[16:15:52] <jelly> ohwowlol, that's good to know
2189[16:15:54] <deleuze6> (otherwise workarounds will
proliferate)
2190[16:16:14] <colo-work> I'll try to collect more data
before I'll have to order one to find out for sure ;)
2196[16:19:21] <jelly> oh it's one of those fatties with a
screen.
2197[16:19:25] <colo-work> jelly, I wouldn't intend to use
it as a media set-top box kind of thing, but as a kind of controller
hub for my (cloud-less) "smart home"
2198[16:19:46] <colo-work> (displaying a browser-based frontend,
most of the time)
2199[16:20:07] <jelly> a r.pi 3b or 4 and a screen might be
cheaper
2200[16:20:33] <colo-work> but the screens (that I've seen)
suck :/
2215[16:27:13] <hans_> didn't expect debian stable to run
the very latest version of php, 7.3
2216[16:27:38] <roylaprattep> even stretch have php7
2217[16:27:46] <hans_> is debian security team still managing the
php packages, or are they just mirroring upstream and letting the
upstream guys deal with security?
2218[16:28:28] <themill> both
2219[16:28:31] <greycat> stretch has php 7.0, and buster has php
7.3
2220[16:28:43] <roylaprattep> yes, but at least it have php7 :P
2221[16:28:45] <hans_> (upstream is no longer maintaining 7.0,
it's EOL)
2268[16:44:10] <pyfgcr> after some discussion on #systemd,
appearently the only way (if any) to distinguish between two
different power keys is via udev
2276[16:46:45] <greycat> hans_: Hmm, I just downloaded ubutu
18.04's sudo package and extracted it, and it looks like their
/etc/sudoers has the same secure_path= that Debian's does. So I
would *expect* sudo -s on Ubuntu to change PATH just like
Debian's does, unless the local sysadmin has altered it.
2327[16:59:27] <hans_> why is popularity-contest opt-in instead
of opt-out ? most people will just take the default setting without
caring, and those who actually do care will take the option they
want, but the option for those who don't really care should be
the option most beneficial to deiban imo
2328[16:59:45] <uRock> for privacy
2329[17:00:27] <uRock> the number of people I've seen crying
about ubuntu having the default to share that data....
2369[17:12:47] <deleuze6> even then it might have been a
'businesscard' installation; my memory is hazy
2370[17:12:52] <gvth> Hi. When I just tried to remove
EXIF-metadata from a pdf document with exiftool, the application
printed that edits would be reversible. Do you folks know of a way
to ultimately and irreversibly remove metadata from documents like
PDFs, JPGs and others?
2371[17:12:53] <greycat> it's more common in certain
countries
2395[17:19:54] <f-a> I have received this attachment:
IMG_9508.HEIC [image/heic, base64, 1.6M]
2396[17:20:13] <f-a> how do I open it on Debian (I still have to
update to stable, to be fair)
2397[17:20:28] <AlpacaFace> SerajewelKS : we spoke yesterday
about openvpn vs tinc. This is my other box. Figured out a good
simple config for the debian openvpn terminal to keep from timing
out and to reconnect on network loss. I commented out
'persist-tun' and used 'keepalive 10 120'. Also,
with xfce, I have it configured to blank the display when laptop lid
is closed (not suspend). This was causing the inactivity timeout for
2398[17:20:30] <f-a> tried sxiv, qupzilla, chromium, gimp... no
success
2399[17:20:32] <greycat> save it to a file, run "file"
to get a first guess what it is
2400[17:20:34] <AlpacaFace> some reason, and apparently openvpn
has problems reconnecting with a persistent tunnel. In case you or
someone else wants to know..
2401[17:20:59] <f-a> greycat: IMG_9508.HEIC: ISO Media
2412[17:26:15] <greycat> if this one random slackware forum
thread is to be believed, the buster version of IM may support
decoding HEIF/HEIC files, but the stretch version may not
2449[17:39:37] <SuperGamba> f-a I supect H.C.B. would probably
love mobile photo... quoting him, "I hate all those enormous
reflex photocameras with all those bulky lenses..I prefer smallest
possible camera". I suspect his eye could have captured the
same emotions with any camera, it' s the eye for the moment not
the gear that makes the artist
2465[17:49:23] <SerajewelKS> for AWS machines, is it recommended
to wait until the buster AMI is ready before upgrading to buster (to
let them sort out any critical bugs) or should it be safe to upgrade
today?
2467[17:49:51] *** Quits: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
2468[17:50:34] *** Quits: stefanos82 (~stephen@replaced-ip) (Quit: Quitting for now...)
2469[17:50:47] <Mathisen> SerajewelKS, well if that is mostly upp
to you. if you got your super important service running there..
dont.. if not.. why not feel lucky :)
2470[17:50:49] <themill> greycat: should be fixed now
2477[17:51:53] <SerajewelKS> one thing in particular that i note
is that section 5.1.5 of the release notes must be handled
differently on the existing AMI. the interface names are ethN, but
none of the usual mechanisms to use the "old" interface
names are present.
2532[18:12:06] <immu> in ubuntu you just click and you are done
2533[18:12:15] <immu> but i want to test debain
2534[18:12:23] <azeem> !nvidia
2535[18:12:23] <dpkg> Where possible, Nvidia graphic processing
units are supported using the open source <nouveau> driver on
Debian systems by default. To install the proprietary
"nvidia" driver, see
replaced-url
2540[18:12:34] <dpkg> rumour has it, mad is Rob Leslie's
MPEG Audio Decoder, GPL, at
replaced-url
2541[18:12:38] <poosh> !amd
2542[18:12:38] <dpkg> Advanced Micro Devices is a semiconductor
manufacturer. For support of ATI/AMD graphics hardware, ask me about
<ati>. See also <amd64>, <coolnquiet>, <k7>.
2547[18:13:15] <dpkg> Cool'n'Quiet is an AMD CPU
frequency scaling feature available on server and desktop
processors, introduced with the Athlon 64. Supported by the
k8-powernow driver since Linux 2.6.18, ask me about <cpufreq>.
Cool'n'Quiet may be disabled by default on some systems.
See also <speedstep>, <power saving>.
2627[18:52:59] <Zesk> Hello, is there anyone willing to share his
preseed.cfg with lvm configuration? I'm failing everytime to
deploy a vm with lvm, it seems to not take into account d-i
partman-auto/expert_recipe string
2670[19:12:08] <aZz7eCh> hi guys. running debian 9. was there
recently an update to libreoffice/calc? out of no where I can not
use any of our spreadsheets for work because when i try and insert
lines or paste new data in, it breaks all formulas .. any pointers
on working out where things have gone wrong?
2715[19:29:12] <rain1> what are these 2 lines and where do they
go? proc on /proc type proc (rw), sysfs on /sys sysfs kind (rw)
2716[19:29:20] <aZz7eCh> oh sorry didn't realise that was
aimed at me. will follow
2717[19:29:21] *** Joins: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip)
2718[19:29:43] <greycat> !chroot
2719[19:29:43] <dpkg> To chroot into your Debian system boot to
your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console
(Alt-F2). Mount your root filesystem with "mount -t ext2
/dev/whatever /target" and make /dev, /proc and /sys usable
with "mount --rbind --make-rslave /dev /target/dev ; mount -t
proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys". You
can then chroot into the system with "chroot /target".
2727[19:33:15] <greycat> Once upon a time I tried to point the
"firmware images" factoid at the appropriate place in the
directory tree so that you could get to any release and any size of
image by following the right links.
2730[19:33:45] <greycat> People decided that was too simple and
too good, so someone pointed it back and the one specific place
three levels down the tree.
2733[19:34:11] <greycat> So, if you want to get to DIFFERENT
images, first you have to go about three levels up, and then you can
start to see how it's laid out.
2734[19:34:19] *** Quits: kreyren (~kreyren@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2735[19:34:55] <greycat> Meanwhile, every single release-named
firmware images factoid still points to that SAME stupid place even
though it's completely dead wrong for older releases.
2742[19:37:12] <xcorshinex> guys do you feel a bit laggy on
deb10?
2743[19:37:31] <EoflaOEViceCity> n-iCe: I think the nonfree ISOs
are only netinstalls.
2744[19:37:35] *** Quits: ckur13 (~ckur13@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2745[19:37:43] <xcorshinex> I opened 5-6 tasks and sometimes it
takes 8secs to operate
2746[19:37:51] <somiaj> posh: unless you are testing the
installer, standard way to install testing is to install a minimial
stable system and dist-upgrade.
2747[19:37:51] <n-iCe> EoflaOEViceCity yeah
2748[19:38:02] <greycat> xcorshinex: with what I do, and how I do
it, there's virtually no difference at all between stretch and
buster. But other people's setups and application loads may be
dramatically different from mine.
2749[19:38:06] <posh> sparky linux just release new version based
on buster
2759[19:40:10] <greycat> EoflaOEViceCity: Your statement is
incorrect. As I explained a couple minutes ago, there's ALL
KINDS of other image sizes, but the factoid that people want you to
read doesn't point you to them.
2814[19:53:10] <somiaj> greycat: yea seems strange, though maybe
they can fit the whole pureblend on a single bd, and craeted it for
a single disk deployment.
2831[19:55:56] <somiaj> you will have to both create a root
password, and unlock password login for root (maybe something you
don't want to do) to be able to login as root without sudo.
2832[19:56:02] <somiaj> I would personally just use sudo.
2837[19:56:07] <jim> EmleyMoor, if he's logged into his
personal account, then files in his home dir might be busy, and
therefore the /home partition might be busy
2838[19:56:42] <jim> so if /home is separate, you might not be
able to unmount it
2839[19:56:55] <greycat> somiaj: you mean sudo -i
2840[19:57:00] <Efrit> But how I can access to a console from
here?
2847[19:57:53] <jim> python question... is there automation set
up in debian for packaging python modules?
2848[19:57:54] <somiaj> oh yea, sudo -i (for somereason I was
thinking -l for login)
2849[19:57:57] <greycat> Efrit: while you were out, 13:55
somiaj> you will have to both create a root password, and unlock
password login for root (maybe something you don't want to do)
to be able to login as root without sudo.
2868[20:00:24] <somiaj> maybe we have an xy-problem, what is your
actual goal. If it is to become root use 'sudo -i' if it
is to run a program as root use 'sudo programname'
2891[20:04:56] <somiaj> ahh, so maybe this is an issue with
emergency mode and not having a root account. In this case get a
recovery system and fix it from that
2892[20:05:12] <somiaj> you can use the isntaller or a live
system to mount, chroot into your install and fix the issue with
your /home partition so it mounts correctly.
2893[20:05:16] <jim> yeah I really don't know what your
situation really is, and evidently some other folks do
2895[20:07:23] <jim> you might be able to put together a chroot,
then add the root user from that (careful though, make sure first
you don't have it by looking at /etc/passwd)
2930[20:14:54] <greycat> it's not officially supported. the
release notes say "The net.ifnames=0 kernel commandline option
might also work for systems with only one network interface (of a
given type)."
2941[20:18:33] <SerajewelKS> is there a supported way to rename
specific interfaces? at least so WAN interfaces could have a
consistent name across all machines instead of enxNNNNNNNNNNNN?
2942[20:18:50] <rain1> how do i change the screen lock settings?
2943[20:19:20] <SerajewelKS> rain1: depends on the desktop
environment
2976[20:28:18] <somiaj> could you have just mixxed versions
installed, maybe check the output of 'apt policy npm' and
'apt policy nodejs'
2977[20:28:34] <somiaj> also run 'which npm' and
'which nodejs' and make sure that you aren't calling
some locally installed version vs the buster version.
2978[20:28:42] <Habbie> npm WARN npm npm does not support Node.js
v10.15.2
2979[20:28:44] <SerajewelKS> if you ever updated npm using npm
then you have a local version as well
3007[20:32:56] <somiaj> well I thought nodejs was removed from
stretch due to 'changing to quickly to provide security support
for a frozen system', so I was surprised to see it in buster.
3008[20:33:07] <greycat> npm is a completely separate project
from node.js, isn't it?
3009[20:33:13] <somiaj> I don't use this, so no clue what is
going on, but it sounds like this is just a warning and you should
be able to use npm just fine.
3021[20:37:54] <somiaj> yea, my undestanding was nodejs is still
changing so quickly that the frozen version in debian wasn't
viable, though maybe it is slowing down and just needs to have a bit
more attention
3022[20:38:18] <somiaj> in the debian packages that is, but
anyways, seems what JordiGH found is a known bug, and wasn't
deemed an rc-bug by the matainers-developers
3029[20:41:25] <JordiGH> SerajewelKS: Yeah, I knew about that,
but when I saw that Debian 10 had not-mesozoic node packages I
figured maybe something got better.
3043[20:49:29] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip) (Quit: conta)
3044[20:49:32] <centrix> I have installed Deb 10 + samba 4.
wbinfo -P or -p works. wbinfo -i userXYZ works. smbclient using my
domain credentials works. Squid 4, using winbind does not. Any
clues, please? Thank you.
3054[20:53:11] <somiaj> Efrit: in this case you can probably just
mount your root file system, then edit /etc/fstab to get past the
error
3055[20:53:26] <dan_kelly> There are a whole bunch of packages
that exist in stretch and SID are just missing from the
Buster's repos. About one third of my debian system is
downloded .DEB package.
3056[20:53:32] <somiaj> do you know why the error is happeneing,
did you copy down the uuid wrong.
3057[20:53:39] <JordiGH> SerajewelKS: Well, I use Debian because
I liked outdated software.
3058[20:53:48] *** Quits: Abdullah (~ak@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3059[20:53:57] <Efrit> I think it happened because the file was
too big
3060[20:54:02] <Efrit> But I am not sure
3061[20:54:04] <somiaj> dan_kelly: there is often a reason a
package is removed from buster, and you should look into that as
opposed to installing packages for stretch (safer) or sid (can be
very unsafe) in buster.
3062[20:54:05] <JordiGH> Updating every two years is already
starting to feel too fast for my poor, old aching bones.
3063[20:54:17] <Efrit> It was ~45 GiB
3064[20:54:45] <somiaj> JordiGH: could be worth waiting until the
end of oldstable support (this gives 3 years) and by the time you
upgrade, there maybe more stuff in backports then upgading near the
release date.
3065[20:55:03] <somiaj> (also note due to LTS you could use a
debian release for 5 years reasonablly, though some stuff on
desktops do have secuirty support dropped)
3066[20:55:14] <somiaj> Efrit: what file was that big?
3067[20:55:24] <Efrit> A video
3068[20:55:38] <centrix> somiaj, Good, I'll give it a try.
3069[20:55:40] <somiaj> still don't see why that would stop
/home from mounting
3070[20:56:08] <somiaj> centrix: #samba on freenode
3071[20:56:28] <Efrit> Well that’s the only weird behaviour
that happened before the error
3116[21:11:29] <dpkg> rufus is a tool that can be used to make
bootable USB devices under Windows. It is not recommended for use
with Debian CD/DVD images, as it mangles the installer in cruel and
unusual ways, resulting in hard to debug problems. Ask me about
<hybrid images>, <usb install>, <win32diskimager>.
3126[21:12:42] <dpkg> win32diskimager is much more reliable than
<unetbootin> for copying ISO images to USB sticks and you can
download it from
replaced-url
3127[21:12:45] *** archer is now known as Guest89889
3137[21:17:28] <rappscallion> hi there, i just upgraded from
stretch to buster, and now my mouse is super fast when i use my
trackpoint (its okay if i use the touchpad). i am using xorg with
just a window manger. could somebody give me a hint how i can adjust
this? i tried xset -m and lxinput, both dont seem to have any
effect.
3138[21:17:34] <SerajewelKS> foul_owl: note if you want to jump
through another ssh server then you want -J instead
3139[21:18:12] *** Quits: qwas (~Android@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3176[21:35:14] <Klaus_Dieter> it has been 10 years since I last
used xfce - sorry I cannot tell you how you define a menu entry.
However that is what you would do: create a custom menu entry that
runs your command. Your command would be spawning a terminal, then
in there run sudo synaptic. Maybe you could look up how the existing
menu entry does this and just alter the small changes.
3177[21:35:31] <Klaus_Dieter> However the whole use case makes me
think that you *might* be going about this the hard way.
3178[21:35:34] <greycat> Most likely one does it by creating a
*.desktop file.
3179[21:35:48] <greycat> that seems to be the common arrangement
in the last few years
3182[21:36:25] *** robotpanic is now known as Guest67052
3183[21:36:31] <Klaus_Dieter> usually synaptic is used to set
settings that you'd always want active. I run synaptic from my
session startup files such that I won't have to execute them
manually on login. Maybe something that is worth considering for you
as well?
3192[21:41:34] <jhutchins_wk> If someone doesn't know how to
run synaptic, they shouldn't be installing software.
3193[21:42:02] <greycat> I don't know how to run synaptic.
Literally never even wanted to try.
3194[21:42:08] <a-l-e> if you have better ideas, i'm open...
but she will leave tomorrow for 1 1/2 weeks and will take with her a
small laptop setup for the holidays... and if she misses a program
she should be able to install it.
3195[21:42:20] <a-l-e> greycat, we're two...
3196[21:42:38] <a-l-e> i'm asking beceaus i don't know
(exactly) how synaptic works.
3197[21:42:54] <greycat> The main thing is: it doesn't.
3198[21:42:59] <a-l-e> but it looks like the best way to manage
software on debian with a GUI.
3200[21:43:21] <greycat> It needs to run the GUI as root, which
is a complete no-go under Wayland, and is only possible under X with
various hacks to allow root to communicate with not-root's X
server.
3201[21:43:45] <petn-randall> synaptic is completely fine for end
user consumption, and also asking to let someone who owns the
machine to install software without hassle is also a reasonable
request.
3202[21:43:52] *** Quits: Guest41437 (~caravel@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3203[21:43:52] <a-l-e> well, i'm pretty sure that ubuntu
launches things as sudo from the gui.
3204[21:44:06] <jhutchins_wk> a-l-e: ... so the best way is to
open a terminal and use apt.
3206[21:44:15] <petn-randall> greycat: Didn't that bug get
fixed?
3207[21:44:42] <greycat> Which bug? The one that caused it to be
removed entirely? That was fixed by generating an error message
under Wayland, and doing glob-knows-what under X.
3217[21:47:35] <coruja> a-l-e, you could define small bash
aliases for apt commands and configure sudo to run apt commands
without authentification (but mind security implications too)
3218[21:47:37] <a-l-e> ok, having raead a bit about gksu and
pkexec i'll give up.
3219[21:48:16] *** Quits: timahvo1 (~rogue@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3225[21:50:54] <carp_> Hello, Ive just upgraded to Buster! First
of all, thankyou so much guys for all your hard work. My computer is
now sporting the soothing blue colour palette.
3231[21:53:15] <carp_> I noticed that it was recommended to
handle the upgrade using apt, and not apt-get like last time. While
on Stretch, I would daily run "apt-get update" and
"apt-get upgrade". Is this recommended for Buster as well?
Or should I be using just "apt" now?
3233[21:53:32] *** Joins: banky (~sullivan@replaced-ip)
3234[21:54:02] <greycat> carp_: you only need to do "apt
update" one time, to get the prompt and answer it
"yes", if you previously ran buster-as-testing. Otherwise,
it doesn't matter.
3245[21:57:47] <carp_> greycat ok thanks for the tip. I am a
nooby user as you might have guessed. I dont really understand the
nuances between aptitude, apt, apt-get and stuff haha, but I guess I
will continue using apt-get as before (this is what I used while on
jessie and stretch).
3246[21:57:48] <dob1> it's this Bus 001 Device 006: ID
10d6:1101 Actions Semiconductor Co., Ltd D-Wave 2GB MP4 Player /
AK1025 MP3/MP4 Player
3257[22:01:17] <EoflaOEViceCity> What happened when you tried to
install libncurses5 cmihai?
3258[22:01:30] <theluckymike> hi, im running debian stable with
xorg and i3 installed, but without any full DE and somehow it turns
off my monitor after some idle time. What service is doing it?
3259[22:01:59] <cmihai> EoflaOEViceCity: nothing. Nothing in logs
or strace either.
3260[22:02:06] <cmihai> Normally that 'fixes it' on
CentOS 7
3263[22:03:16] *** Quits: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3264[22:03:36] <EoflaOEViceCity> cmihai: Did you get an error
message saying that it didn't exist? Or does it say nothing
when you tried "sudo apt install libncurses5"?
3272[22:05:07] <theluckymike> aha, dpms section, ok will look in
to it. ty
3273[22:05:10] *** Joins: Immanuel (~Manu@replaced-ip)
3274[22:05:15] <rappscallion> xset -dpms turns it off
3275[22:05:22] <rappscallion> xset +dpms turns it on
3276[22:05:23] <rawtaz> hi. quick questions about
replaced-url
3277[22:05:23] <theluckymike> ty
3278[22:05:35] <annadane> but that's a temporary measure and
resets, no?
3279[22:05:36] <a0z> theluckymike: just run "xset" on
it's own to see options. I think you're looking for the
Energy Star DPMS feature of Xorg
3280[22:05:40] *** Quits: Sleepy63 (~Sleepy63@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3281[22:06:40] <rappscallion> hi there, i just upgraded from
stretch to buster, and now my mouse is super fast when i use my
trackpoint (its okay if i use the touchpad). i am using xorg with
just a window manger. could somebody give me a hint how i can adjust
this? i tried xset -m and lxinput, both dont seem to have any
effect.
3282[22:06:50] <rawtaz> ok, after doing /msg dpkg
stretch->buster i see that the recommended path is apt update
&& apt upgrade && apt full-upgrade . i guess i
shouldnt bother with the article :)
3283[22:07:05] <annadane> rawtaz, well, you should still read the
release notes
3291[22:09:26] <EoflaOEViceCity> cmihai: Can you install it then
try to run VMware installer?
3292[22:10:07] <cmihai> Yup, it works now. I dug into the
equivalent centos 7 and rhel8 packages (ncurses-compat-libs). Right
package for Deiban is libncursesw5 not libncurses5 ;-)
3293[22:11:19] <annadane> curses!
3294[22:11:33] <Akuw> i created a public key and every time i
need to login i use public key
3295[22:11:50] <Akuw> but what happen if another user want to
connect without use public key
3322[22:20:49] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: Not sure apt-get has
full-upgrade. Look at the usage, is it mentioned? If not, try
dist-upgrade, or use apt or aptitude (not installed by default).
3332[22:22:28] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: There have been releases
where aptitude got stuck trying to resolve all of the depenencies,
so apt-get was recommended. I believe for buster they recommend apt.
3333[22:22:34] <rawtaz> jhutchins_wk: seems like things are
moving to `apt`, and it's used most of the time in that article
3340[22:23:50] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: Notice that that is NOT the
Debian upgrade article.
3341[22:24:02] <jhutchins_wk> !stretch -> buster
3342[22:24:08] <carp_> rawtaz this is exactly the question i was
asking just a few moments before you came into the channel. I too am
wondering if it is now recommended to use "apt" instead of
"apt-get" as I have been for jessie and stretch for
regular maintenance.
3350[22:24:57] <jhutchins_wk> rawtaz: Two stages are recommended
because full-upgrade does more critical files, and you have a chance
to fix problems before going to the new kernel.
3351[22:25:22] <rawtaz> jhutchins_wk: it's those release
notes im reading. i was wondering why in
replaced-url
3367[22:31:27] <rawtaz> annadane: i'd use postfix but im
pretty sure sendmail is secure enough for your needs, if you use the
sendmail that's maintained as part of debian
3368[22:32:28] <rawtaz> annadane: sorry that wasnt meant for you
3369[22:32:29] <rawtaz> Akuw: ^
3370[22:32:51] <Akuw> ok
3371[22:33:21] <Akuw> i am getting this when try to install
sendmail " sendmail : Depende: sendmail-bin pero no va a
instalarse"
3373[22:33:33] <jmcnaught> Akuw: if you plan on using gmail for
delivery then you might want to check out something a lot simpler
than sendmail, like msmtp-mta
3389[22:42:01] <Efrit> Ok so after redownloading the iso file
then copying on the USB key with the cp command as written in the
manual, I still get to the ash shell
3390[22:42:43] <Efrit> When booting from the USB key and
selecting the Live menu to try Debian 10
3392[22:43:24] <ghormoon> hi, any ideas what to do if i can print
a6 on my printer from a pdf, but only page-per-page? if i try to
feed it both pages at once, the printer complains it needs a5 paper,
not a6. i was hoping for duplex on one (but even getting it on two
a6 sheets would be progress). I'm failing both through okular
and through lpr
3393[22:46:40] *** Quits: wilson (~wilson@replaced-ip) (Quit: WeeChat 2.3)
3394[22:47:10] <rawtaz> hm. im trying to figure out how to
trigger the running of certbot manually. there's a timer and a
service for it. what's the most proper way to just have it run
once (as if the trigger time was reached)?
3395[22:47:30] <Akuw> jmcnaught: installed and tested, is nice
3451[23:03:59] *** Quits: Uberius (~Uberius@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
3452[23:05:22] <yokowka> парни приветъ!! вопросъ не по линуксъ,
но можетъ знаете - доска объявлений сша и канады?
3453[23:05:50] <a0z> !ru
3454[23:05:50] <dpkg> Это английскоговорящий канал, пожалуйста,
говорите по-английски или посетите #debian-russian (irc.oftc.net)
(Russian speakers please go to #debian-russian)
3465[23:17:51] <carp_> Ive just been reading about apt, apt-get
and aptitude. I have just installed Buster, so this seems like a
good time to switch to a different package manager if I am going to.
Which do you use?
3466[23:18:19] <ksk> carp_: eeeeh ;)
3467[23:18:46] <ksk> apt-get and aptitude first of all, are two
different things, coming to slightly different solutions to
problems.
3468[23:19:01] <ksk> apt then is just a frontend to apt-get if I
recall correctly
3469[23:20:12] <ksk> while debian aimed to replace apt-get with
aptitude, this did never happen. aptitude may sometimes be smarter
about resolving problems that can occour (but should not if you only
use debian stable).
3471[23:21:02] <ksk> also, aptitude has the option to
"aptitude why $pkg" -telling you why pkg got installed (as
a dependencie) - though there might be other ways to get that info,
not sure.
3482[23:23:30] <ksk> if this is some pre-packaged VM check which
formates they offer - and go for the latest stable release. You can
get for example VirtualBox or so via its upstream.
3517[23:40:18] <petn-randall> rawtaz: aptitude is a GUI, so that
won't go away. And "apt" is the effort to consolidate
things, so yes, just use that.
3518[23:40:19] <ratrace> someone's confusing dpkg with
various frontends and higher level UIs to the one and only dpkg
3519[23:40:21] <rawtaz> petn-randall: well, those are not in such
a restricted context as <the package manager for the operating
system>, so thats not really the same thing
3520[23:40:38] <petn-randall> rawtaz: The package manager is
dpkg.
3521[23:40:39] <ratrace> the package manager is actually dpkg,
one and only.
3526[23:41:01] <ratrace> dpkg: right? there can be only one?
3527[23:41:02] <dpkg> ratrace: I wish you would RTFM.
3528[23:41:08] <ratrace> I wish that too.
3529[23:41:32] *** Quits: kapilp (uid36151@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
3530[23:41:38] <petn-randall> rawtaz: Why get rid of the others?
Other people might be happy with their selection of tools.
3531[23:42:13] <rawtaz> petn-randall: because as i said, these
have been confusing to the average user or at least the average
newcomer for very very long. and most basic things can be done with
all of them, fueling that confusion
3532[23:42:43] <rawtaz> e.g. apt-get install and aptitude install
3533[23:42:57] <petn-randall> But ... they do different things?
3534[23:43:01] <rawtaz> (im talking about aptitude in CLI mode,
not the UI)
3535[23:43:07] <ratrace> bash: aptitude: command not found
3536[23:43:08] <rawtaz> is installing a package not the same
thing?
3537[23:43:13] <ratrace> so not sure what's confusing about
that
3538[23:43:22] <petn-randall> Dependency resolution is different
between the two.
3542[23:43:42] <ratrace> no really. there is no aptitude unless
you deliberately install it, so i don't get the confusion for
"new users" here
3543[23:43:50] <rawtaz> petn-randall: that might be so, but thats
not something non-advanced users have any clue about or even care
about in most cases
3546[23:44:26] <somiaj> rawtaz: apt-get is part of apt, and apt
is the main one. The main difference between apt and apt-get is
apt-get is now meant for scripts, and apt for end user.
3547[23:44:28] <rawtaz> ratrace: are you sure aptitude isnt
installed by default?
3548[23:44:29] <petn-randall> Right. So then just don't
install it? I don't see where the confusion comes from. Unless
you just decide to install it and not understand what those tools
do.
3556[23:45:21] * dvs mentions discover just to confuse everyone
3557[23:45:26] <rawtaz> petn-randall: well you dont seem to have
any understanding of what im talking about. perhaps you should go
duck "apt-get vs aptitude" or similar to see what inm
talking about
3558[23:45:35] <somiaj> yea, having to install aptitude to use
its additional features is now needed, but the whole idea of the
single binar apt, is to provide a simple tool for endusers.
3559[23:45:36] * ratrace waits for someone to mention synaptic too
3560[23:45:39] <rawtaz> petn-randall: im not trying to persuade
you or anything. if you dont agree, fine.
3566[23:46:37] <ratrace> rawtaz: sounds like you're
complaining there's a choice of tools, and would like to impose
OneTrueWay based on your personal preference.
3567[23:46:42] <petn-randall> rawtaz: I get your angle, but you
don't seem to understand that different users have different
preferences, and all you're asking for is to get rid of all but
one alternative for the sake of not confusing users, which is a
pretty weak argument.
3568[23:46:50] <somiaj> but apt is meant to be the end user tool,
apt-get is isntalled because many thigns will use it. In general a
user can use apt/apt-get interchangable.
3569[23:47:01] <rawtaz> somiaj: whats the main usability
difference between apt and apt-get? i mena, why cant users use
apt-get like before?
3571[23:47:22] <somiaj> you also forgot about a lot of other
ones, the gui ones like synamptic or softwaremanager (both in
debian), and deselect is still around, though I think this one is
close to not being used by anyone.
3572[23:47:42] <rawtaz> petn-randall: im more like put them in
one tool instead of in three. and why does there have to be
different dependency resolutions? pick the best one and go with
that?
3573[23:47:52] <petn-randall> !best
3574[23:47:52] <dpkg> Best for what? Please define what you mean
by "best". Gloria Gaynor! Tina Turner! Aretha Franklin!
Men without Hats! Women without Hats! Men at Work! Women at Play!
Anyone for Tennis!
3575[23:47:57] * ratrace throws a confusion grenade in the pot by
mentioning flatpak and snaps
3576[23:48:00] <somiaj> rawtaz: apt-get had a few problems, it is
overly complicated to end users. It started to be used in scripts,
so this makes it so its api cannot be changed, its output needs to
be consistant, and this isn't that useful for a end user tool.
3578[23:48:27] <rawtaz> petn-randall: the one that screws things
up the least, and if you need more control than that, then let that
one tool have that flexibility. you dont need two different tools to
provide flexibility
3579[23:48:30] <petn-randall> TBH those tools should be using
libapt, though.
3580[23:48:36] <somiaj> rawtaz: so apt was introduced to be end
user, it only documents the most basic tools an end user needs, and
it gives fancy colored/progress bar output, and it can evolve and
change to match users needs
3581[23:48:47] <petn-randall> rawtaz: Why *two*? There are far
more tools than that.
3582[23:48:49] <rawtaz> petn-randall: anyway, there's zero
point spending time discussing this, because i understand you have a
different opinion, which is fine.
3585[23:49:06] <rawtaz> petn-randall: talking about apt-get and
aptitude, which you mentioned before have different dep resolutions
3586[23:49:21] <rawtaz> somiaj: okay, noted
3587[23:49:24] <somiaj> rawtaz: so apt-get is basically frozen,
can be scripted, and is meant to be a tool for advanced users, while
apt is the tool for end users. But they do most the same things (in
the end apt calls apt-get, apt-cache to do its actual work or as
petn-randall pointed out libapt)
3588[23:49:40] <rawtaz> that ^
3589[23:49:52] <rawtaz> read it and think about what that means
to the newcomer or basic users.
3590[23:50:00] <rawtaz> thats all im saying
3591[23:50:21] <rawtaz> anyway, thanks for your time, i wont take
more of it on this topic
3592[23:50:38] <somiaj> a new user can use apt or apt-get, and
due to the archive of the internet filled with (often outdated or
bad advise) you'll see it suggest both, it is only now that apt
is started to be suggested by pages.
3593[23:50:42] <petn-randall> Sure. But you could argue that
having 10 DEs is also confusing to the end user, and as such all but
gnome need to be removed.
3595[23:51:09] <petn-randall> Or different library versions in
the same release, or many other things.
3596[23:51:12] <somiaj> and in most things replacing apt with
apt-get (or vis aversa) will just work without the user knowing why
3597[23:51:41] <somiaj> also apt was meant to consildate tools,
so no longer apt-get, apt-cache, apt-foo, just one command apt, that
contains the basic tools of all of them.
3598[23:51:46] *** Quits: CaptainN (zelda@replaced-ip) (Quit: I have to pee!)
3599[23:51:49] <somiaj> ,v dselsect
3600[23:51:50] <judd> No package named 'dselsect' was
found in amd64.
3603[23:52:21] <somiaj> That is the one that I'm surprised
is still around (and used)
3604[23:53:33] <somiaj> rawtaz: to me, the biggest issue I see
with new users and debian is lots of sources of information is out
dated, this even includes the debian wiki, which some pages still
have pre jessie info on it.
3606[23:54:24] <somiaj> so it is less that there are multiple
tools, it is that there isn't really a nicely currated single
location of information, but more information is spread in lots of
different places. I still think the debian adminstaros guide is one
of the better guides/books, bit it is a bit long for most begining
users to read.
3609[23:55:46] <rawtaz> somiaj: yeah hopefully in a few years or
sooner, apt will be whats referenced by default
3610[23:56:22] <somiaj> due to all the old out dated pages people
will still find with high google hits, it won't any time soon.
3611[23:56:48] <somiaj> I personally think an overhaul on the
wiki could help out, but the man power isn't there.
3612[23:56:48] *** Quits: electro33 (uid613@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
3613[23:57:24] <karlpinc> And then there's people like me,
who don't like apt because it's too verbose and don't
see a reason to switch.
3614[23:57:50] <somiaj> or get annoyed each time you try to pipe
the output
3615[23:58:10] <somiaj> the main reason I have forced myself to
switch to apt, is so when I help people here, my fingers type apt vs
apt-get by default.
3616[23:58:51] <somiaj> though it would be nice if apt worked
more like git, so apt policy and apt-policy are both the same thing.
3617[23:59:11] <rawtaz> what's the general opinion on NixOS
in the debian community, if i may ask?
3618[23:59:22] <rawtaz> is it frowned upon or welcomed or what?