• 0[00:00:30] <nvz> cwd is also a good bit of info
• 1[00:01:18] <EdePopede> or 'e' for the environment
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• 4[00:01:48] <nvz> nobody /cares/ about the _environment_ :P
• 5[00:02:11] <nvz> global warming is fake news :D
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• 8[00:02:33] <EdePopede> yes, and covid is just a little flu :P
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• 12[00:06:26] <EdePopede> actually i want to be able to do different things depending on $WINDOW while in screen
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• 20[00:12:49] <NCS_One> hi
• 21[00:13:22] <DracoSentien> NCS_One: Greetings Earthling
• 22[00:13:43] <NCS_One> how can I check a package version on the latest Debian release? I haven't updated it yet
• 23[00:14:24] <DracoSentien> man dpkg or man apt maybe ?
• 24[00:14:38] <DracoSentien> NCS_One: man page is good for you
• 25[00:15:22] <NCS_One> DracoSentien: without updating the apt know the packages version of the new release?
• 26[00:15:22] <DracoSentien> NCS_One: I guess man grep too maybe
• 27[00:16:31] <DracoSentien> NCS_One: I dunno I run openbsd because linux is for mentally retarded bitches I just came here to troll
• 28[00:16:34] <DracoSentien> As an operating system GNU/Linux has become a mess because of the fragmented nature of the project, the bloatware in the kernel, and because of the jerking around by commercial interests.
• 29[00:17:02] *** Parts: DracoSentien (~zerocool@replaced-ip) ()
• 30[00:17:16] <NCS_One> I used to use openbsd
• 31[00:17:25] <NCS_One> a long time ago
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• 33[00:19:03] <NCS_One> with fvwm
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• 41[00:23:12] <snooky> hi all
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• 49[00:34:19] <LtL> DracoSentinel copied that from this article word for word. replaced-url
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• 160[01:20:55] <nvz> LtL: what I could stand to read of that seemed as idiotic as I had expected
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• 269[01:47:37] <snooky> jh
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• 288[02:11:05] <epictetus2> The recent gnutls security problem is bad. I didn't notice it until now.
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• 296[02:22:44] <annadane> ,i gnutls
• 297[02:22:45] <judd> No package named 'gnutls' was found in buster/amd64.
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• 300[02:27:30] <epictetus2> ,i libgnutls30
• 301[02:27:32] <judd> Package libgnutls30 (libs, optional) in buster/amd64: GNU TLS library - main runtime library. Version: 3.6.7-4+deb10u3; Size: 1098.1k; Installed: 2644k; Homepage: replaced-url
• 302[02:27:38] *** Quits: toli (~toli@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
• 303[02:29:52] <annadane> this is the first time i realize it's gnu transport layer system (or whatever the acronym stands for) and not 'gnu utils'
• 304[02:30:05] <annadane> anyway
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• 307[02:31:44] <tomreyn> s as in security
• 308[02:31:48] * nvz coughs security
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• 313[02:34:58] * LtL hands nvz a fresh mask
• 314[02:36:04] <nvz> you couldn't throw it away yourself?
• 315[02:36:46] <LtL> hell no ;)
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• 317[02:37:20] * nvz holds the trash can closer
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• 319[02:38:55] <nvz> I'd used my cooling towel when I ran in a store real quick earlier.. and well.. turns out they're not very breathable :D
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• 338[03:13:16] <annadane> transport layer silliness
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• 390[04:41:29] <brachamh> nvz
• 391[04:41:43] <nvz> nope, died of covid
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• 393[04:42:39] <nvz> wore a mask but nobody told him it was suppose to go on his face..
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• 397[04:46:08] <brachamh> oh is that pic of the guy in the mask thong you?
• 398[04:46:17] <nvz> :D
• 399[04:46:27] <nvz> felt better that way
• 400[04:47:11] <brachamh> haha!
• 401[04:47:44] <brachamh> so i'm getting back to this laptop
• 402[04:49:11] *** Quits: Cabanossi (~Cabanossi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
• 403[04:49:12] <brachamh> apparently closing it so the screen would go off made it shut down...had to start it back up again
• 404[04:49:30] <brachamh> back in rescue mode
• 405[04:50:09] *** Joins: Cabanossi (~Cabanossi@replaced-ip)
• 406[04:51:52] <brachamh> or wait...i'd gone to regular mode to where it froze, then opened second terminal, started there
• 407[04:52:15] <nvz> do you have wifi or something and any reservations about pasting the logs?
• 408[04:53:15] <brachamh> oh right i was going to find another network cable and hook it up
• 409[04:53:20] <brachamh> hang on
• 410[04:53:34] <nvz> well if youre missing firmware for the ethernet thats not gonna work
• 411[04:53:46] <nvz> which you seemed to indicate may be an issue on that machine
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• 413[04:57:37] <brachamh> i can't remember...i want to string a cable anyway. just found one, gonna string it around the desk
• 414[04:58:33] <nvz> oddly enough I've found in my experience that firmware for ethernet is rare, but usually machines that need firmware for ethernet DONT for the wifi :P
• 415[04:58:37] *** Quits: r1nt3c (~r1nt3c@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
• 416[04:58:53] <brachamh> yeah usually it's the wifi that has issues
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• 421[05:13:03] <brachamh> ok so i have it on the network
• 422[05:13:37] *** Quits: r1nt3c (~r1nt3c@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
• 423[05:13:46] <brachamh> and online
• 424[05:14:31] <brachamh> nvz, how do i get you the logs?
• 425[05:14:41] <sney> !termbin
• 426[05:14:41] <dpkg> you can paste to termbin.com from terminal via: cat /path/to/file | nc termbin.com 9999
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• 432[05:19:30] <nvz> brachamh: journalctl -k | nc termbin.com 9999
• 433[05:20:01] <nvz> brachamh: cat /var/log/Xorg.0.log | nc termbin.com 9999
• 434[05:20:38] <nvz> brachamh: (lspci -nn; lsmod) | nc termbin.com 9999
• 435[05:21:08] <nvz> the problem is something to do with your video card and that should about cover it I'd guess
• 436[05:21:45] <nvz> its a bit much to go all in one paste, termbin like most has a limit
• 437[05:22:25] <brachamh> ok so do each of those?
• 438[05:22:52] <nvz> well in order of importance in my opinion, but all would give the full picture
• 439[05:23:19] <nvz> the problem may very well be apparent just from journalctl -k
• 440[05:23:40] <brachamh> replaced-url
• 441[05:25:07] <tomreyn> r8169 0000:05:00.0: firmware: failed to load rtl_nic/rtl8106e-1.fw (-2)
• 442[05:25:15] <tomreyn> and following
• 443[05:25:29] <nvz> yeah it tries several drivers for your video
• 444[05:25:39] <nvz> and doesnt find firmware for either radeon or amdgpu
• 445[05:25:46] <nvz> which seems to be the issue
• 446[05:26:04] <nvz> brachamh: for future ref you should probably just use the firmware installer images
• 447[05:26:16] <nvz> !firmware installer
• 448[05:26:16] <dpkg> Debian-Installer is able to load additional <firmware>, by including it within installation media or supplying on removable media (e.g. USB stick, floppy). See replaced-url
• 449[05:26:22] <tomreyn> oh this was about graphics, ignore what i quoted then
• 450[05:26:33] <nvz> !firmware images
• 451[05:26:33] <dpkg> Unofficial <netinst> and DVD images containing non-free Debian <firmware> packages are available from replaced-url
• 452[05:26:48] <nvz> brachamh: those ^
• 453[05:27:02] *** Quits: S3xyL1nux (~fredek@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)
• 454[05:27:24] <nvz> your issue may be solved by just installing firmware-amd-graphics i think it is
• 455[05:27:32] <nvz> ,i firmware-amd-graphics
• 456[05:27:33] <judd> Package firmware-amd-graphics (non-free/kernel, optional) in buster/amd64: Binary firmware for AMD/ATI graphics chips. Version: 20190114-2; Size: 3347.1k; Installed: 30235k; Homepage: replaced-url
• 457[05:27:43] <nvz> brachamh: you may need to add non-free sources
• 458[05:27:46] <nvz> !non-free
• 459[05:27:46] <dpkg> [non-free] a component which contains software that does not comply with the <DFSG>. To add non-free packages to your packages index, ask me about <non-free sources>. To see which non-free packages are installed ask me about <non-free list>.
• 460[05:27:57] <nvz> !non-free sources
• 461[05:27:57] <dpkg> Edit /etc/apt/sources.list, ensure that the two main Debian mirror lines end with "main contrib non-free" rather than just "main", then «apt-get update». But bear in mind that you'll be installing <non-free> software. These may have onerous terms; check the licenses. See also <sources.list>.
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• 463[05:35:06] <brachamh> hey there's a mouse on the screen!
• 464[05:35:09] <brachamh> and the login screen
• 465[05:35:17] <nvz> well there you have it..
• 466[05:35:33] <nvz> if you had used the firmware images to install you prob wouldnt have had this issue
• 467[05:36:08] <brachamh> didn't realize i had to. i'm still quite new to alot of this
• 468[05:36:15] <brachamh> which is the lightest DE?
• 469[05:36:21] <nvz> !de usage
• 470[05:36:22] <dpkg> i guess de usage is The HDD/RAM of the 7 DE on Stretch: GNOME 4.2G 726M, KDE 4.1G 604M, Cinnamon 3.7G 482M, MATE 3.1G 215M, LXQt 3.1G 184M, LXDE 3.0G 180M, XFCE 2.9G 226M. For Buster usage, package lists, and screenshots of the same see replaced-url
• 471[05:36:30] <nvz> see my site above ^
• 472[05:38:22] <brachamh> so LXDE is the lightest
• 473[05:38:31] *** Quits: oiaohm (~oiaohm@replaced-ip) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
• 474[05:38:43] <nvz> idk about that
• 475[05:38:58] *** Joins: oiaohm (~oiaohm@replaced-ip)
• 476[05:39:15] <brachamh> well, lightest in memory
• 477[05:40:05] <nvz> did you visit the site?
• 478[05:40:18] <nvz> the info in the factoid I'd made for stretch then made the site for buster
• 479[05:40:36] <quadrathoch2> brachamh, just so you know, lxde is not maintained anymore (upstream afaik), as they all moved to lxqt
• 480[05:41:07] *** Quits: Cabanossi (~Cabanossi@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
• 481[05:41:12] <nvz> xfce is lighter on hdd/ram according to that site
• 482[05:41:18] <brachamh> quadrathoch2, thanks
• 483[05:41:27] <brachamh> nvz ok i'm going through it now
• 484[05:41:30] <nvz> I use MATE personally
• 485[05:41:50] <nvz> I find it to be a mature codebase very configurable with ease, and light enough
• 486[05:42:58] <brachamh> according to the numbers, it is fairly light
• 487[05:43:09] *** Joins: Sleepy63 (~Sleepy63@replaced-ip)
• 488[05:44:42] <nvz> yeah I
• 489[05:45:36] <nvz> Id like to automate a whole process of building vms, benchmarking and screenshotting and all that crap to make something like I have there but more complete and organized for all releases as they come
• 490[05:46:04] <brachamh> this thing is fairly new, but it's pretty basic...just seeing what i can find again now
• 491[05:46:04] <nvz> seems like its useful to answer common questions about what comes with each de task and how it performs and stuff
• 492[05:46:43] *** Joins: Cabanoss- (~Cabanossi@replaced-ip)
• 493[05:46:50] <nvz> I did what I got so far manually with virtualbox.. and hosting it off a crappy old machine sitting in my living room :P
• 494[05:46:58] <brachamh> dual core 1GHz
• 495[05:47:06] *** Quits: dvs (~hibbard@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
• 496[05:47:14] <brachamh> that's cool!
• 497[05:50:04] <brachamh> there's 8GB RAM in this thing
• 498[05:50:35] *** Quits: ragouel (~crow11@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
• 499[05:52:13] *** Quits: awal1 (~awal1@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
• 500[05:52:30] <nvz> and sadly an AMD APU :P
• 501[05:52:48] <nvz> I'd need two of em.. one to S*** on and the other to cover it up with
• 502[05:53:00] <brachamh> hahaha!
• 503[05:53:13] <brachamh> i got the laptop for $60, without a power adapter
• 504[05:53:43] <brachamh> happened to have another one here for now while i'm waiting for a part for someone else's laptop
• 505[05:53:55] <nvz> and for twice that you couldve got something like these Lenovo x240 or T440 I got..
• 506[05:54:04] <brachamh> eh
• 507[05:54:12] <brachamh> i'm in canada so probably double that again
• 508[05:54:20] <nvz> 4th gen i5-4300U w/ 8G ram
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• 510[05:55:14] <nvz> well 60cnd is like 45usd
• 511[05:55:25] <brachamh> yeah but stuff just isn't as cheap up here
• 512[05:55:32] <nvz> I sold this x240 for like 100usd then bought it back for same price when they got another machine
• 513[05:55:38] <brachamh> hahaha
• 514[05:55:42] <nvz> and they go on ebay for like 120 or so
• 515[05:56:28] <nvz> I bought it back at same price I sold it but they put a new 1tb hdd and 8gb ram in it.. only had a 32gb m.2 ssd and 4gb when I sold it
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• 517[05:56:58] <brachamh> oh nice
• 518[05:57:47] <nvz> I didnt pay crap for this t440 that had a retrofitted 1080p screen which wasnt an option on this model, a 3button touchpad which wasnt an option on this model, 8gb ram.. extended life battery, power cord.. etc
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• 521[05:58:09] <nvz> I just traded an old IBM T42p and some broken parts of some t61 and t500
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• 523[05:59:40] <brachamh> nice
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• 525[06:01:04] <nvz> theyre nice machines.. have 24wh internal batteries and external batteries.. I typically draw like 5w of power even using wifi and bt with normal usage browsing the web or such.. which means with the 72wh external battery I got 96wh of power at 5w.. I get over 16hrs of life
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• 528[06:02:28] <brachamh> wow impressive!
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• 530[06:07:43] <nvz> yeah the power consumption on em blew me away.. first semi modern machines I've owned
• 531[06:08:23] <nvz> normally the wifi/bt eats battery.. but I was so impressed with the cards in these I bought one for my thin client
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• 538[06:11:28] <nvz> Intel 7260.. they seem to have really worked hard to make a goot wifi/bt card that is low power and works well on linux
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• 543[06:14:40] <nvz> they go for like US$15 on ebay, I got 3 of em now.. quite pleased with em
• 544[06:17:34] * nvz goes to sleep
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• 549[06:29:04] <brachamh> intel 7260, i'll have to make a note of that
• 550[06:29:08] <brachamh> thanks nvz
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• 729[10:07:46] <no_gravity> What could be a good way when my last boot time was? I mean not the one of the current session but the one before.
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• 731[10:08:17] <ratrace> no_gravity: with no persistent journald, you'll have to dig through /var/log
• 732[10:08:47] <no_gravity> ratrace: /var/log/syslog?
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• 734[10:10:19] <ratrace> no_gravity: zgrep "Command line: BOOT" /var/log/kern.log*
• 735[10:10:57] <no_gravity> ratrace: Nice! Thank you!
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• 741[10:18:48] <ws2k3> so im using php-fpm that serve/use files from an nfs mount. sometimes the nfs mount gets realy slow and php-fpm processes get stuck. would it be possible to see for which io operation the kernel is exacly waiting?
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• 748[10:22:34] <xvilka> Hi! We did a mirror for Debian Ports - replaced-url
• 749[10:22:54] <xvilka> Should reduce the load for current DE and KR mirrors
• 750[10:22:58] <xvilka> feel free to use
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• 752[10:25:30] <ratrace> ws2k3: you can strace the fpm worker process
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• 754[10:25:52] <ws2k3> ratrace: what if i have many fpm worker processes and i dont know which one is stuck?
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• 756[10:26:22] <ratrace> ws2k3: reduce the pool to one worker for the testing
• 757[10:26:50] <ratrace> ws2k3: it _is_ possible to strace the master process with a flag to include all children, but.... if you have many kids that's gonna be a gigaton of output
• 758[10:26:54] <xvilka> Also one more thing - could you please trigger debian-installer autobuild process - it's currently fails on RISC-V port, because incompatible linux kernel versions between installer and available in ports package repository: - 5.7.0 is in packages, while installer is 5.6.0? replaced-url
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• 776[10:45:27] <ws2k3> ratrace: thx
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• 783[10:52:36] <ws2k3> ratrace: there is no other way to see all Pending io operations?
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• 787[11:01:35] <ratrace> ws2k3: there's blktrace but I don't think that'll help you here. You want to see exact function/syscall the php process is hanging on
• 788[11:02:51] <ratrace> ws2k3: but I'll tell you from personal experience, serving files from NFS is a performance disaster. If you can at all, limit it to one worker. As soon as you start to parallelize, performance drops significantly
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• 798[11:15:04] <lovelytingy> hi i have a issue i have linux as host os & window7 in virtualbox i want to use qualcomm 9008 that i attched to linux using usb but window need serial port how i do that anyone
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• 803[11:22:24] <lovelytingy> guys plz
• 804[11:22:34] <ratrace> lovelytingy: you need the non-free version of virtualbox to pass through USB devices, iirc
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• 807[11:25:11] <lovelytingy> virtualbox isn't a open-source?
• 808[11:25:13] <lovelytingy> app
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• 811[11:27:19] <ratrace> lovelytingy: extensions are not, and I think that's what you need to passthrough USB
• 812[11:27:35] <ratrace> or just use native linux hypervisor with qemu-kvm, you can configure passthru for that
• 813[11:27:48] <lovelytingy> how can i do that
• 814[11:27:52] <ratrace> ask google
• 815[11:28:10] <lovelytingy> like what to search i searched a lot
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• 817[11:29:05] <lovelytingy> actually i'm try to flash my xiaomi phone i don't have window so i vm it in linux
• 818[11:29:35] <ratrace> replaced-url
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• 846[12:06:20] <alextee> hi, does debian have some guidelines about what to do with software containing trademarked logos?
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• 852[12:09:19] <ratrace> alextee: I don't think trademark logos per se are problematic.
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• 854[12:10:04] <ratrace> DFSG doesn't mention trademarks either
• 855[12:10:36] <alextee> I am developing a software that has a trademarked logo. so as long as the logo is under a free license, debian would be ok with it?
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• 858[12:11:20] <alextee> free license != trademark policy though afaik
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• 860[12:11:35] <alextee> so it would depend on the trademark policy in that case?
• 861[12:11:37] <ratrace> alextee: Debian doesn't mind trademarked logs in software. See Mozilla products, all the logos are trademarked, and distributed just fine. The Iceweasel thing was about software modifications while retaining the (trademarked) name
• 862[12:12:23] <alextee> I see, thanks ratrace
• 863[12:12:30] <alextee> it sounds like it all depends on the trademark policy then
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• 865[12:13:12] <Rembo> after gcc upgrade to version 8.2, i'm getting this: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6: version `CXXABI_1.3.11' not found (required by ./worldserver)
• 866[12:13:33] <Rembo> and /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6: version `GLIBCXX_3.4.25' not found (required by ./worldserver)
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• 868[12:13:41] <ratrace> alextee: well, for firefox, it was the software license itself that forbid redistribution under (trademarked) name with modifications
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• 870[12:14:30] <ratrace> alextee: so the question is... will you (dis)allow the same? people changing and modifying your software and redistributing under the same name? don't think that's prudent.
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• 872[12:14:48] <alextee> i'm not asking for legal advice, but if you have any knowledge about this issue, does having a trademarked logo under a creative commons license make sense? ratrace
• 873[12:15:11] <alextee> currently, my software is AGPL and all the icons including the logo are CC-BY-SA
• 874[12:15:20] <ratrace> AGPL? ereplaced-url
• 875[12:15:27] <alextee> muh freedums :-)
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• 877[12:16:15] <ratrace> your sucky license aside, the two are semi-independent. you can license the software under (eww!) AGPL, but forbid redistribution of modified code under the trademarked name. that's sensible. you're not limiting the software itself, which is GPL compliant.
• 878[12:16:46] <ratrace> (you're limiting the use of the name)
• 879[12:17:38] <alextee> ok i see. so I should mention these things in a trademark policy that allows redistribution of (unmodified in my case) versions of the software under the same name and using the same logo
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• 881[12:18:06] <ratrace> right.
• 882[12:18:32] <alextee> thanks!
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• 887[12:23:08] <unborn> alextee: perhaps you correct your error and re-read the licences out there and - say at least sorry for the time folks spend here going via your palava licence.. it would be nice.
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• 889[12:24:00] <alextee> you mean AGPL? what's wrong with it?
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• 891[12:24:41] <alextee> I get that lots of people subjectively don't like it, that's fine
• 892[12:24:47] <unborn> nothing.. is wrong with it.
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• 894[12:25:17] <unborn> ' nothings wrong with it'
• 895[12:27:59] <unborn> I do my codes in glp - agpl is fine man..its just the way you asked about it. - just logged in and see some uglyness. People don't like it for a reason... its your creation, licence it however you would like.
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• 907[12:38:37] <ratrace> problem with AGPL is that us, businesses, won't touch it with a 10 ft pole. which is a bit of a loss for that software, commerical use(r)s have a benefit of paid-for contributions
• 908[12:39:20] <apollo13> 10 ft? 1000000 ft
• 909[12:39:35] <Deknos> and that's exactly the reason why i like agpl. because it cannot be overtaken by corporate interest
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• 912[12:40:00] <ratrace> "overtaken"... how does one "overtake" GPL or other licensed libre software?
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• 914[12:40:38] <Deknos> with developer manpower and forcing users to take or leave your stuff because you move fast and the rest has to learn to live with it or leave it.
• 915[12:40:45] <ratrace> problem with AGPL is that I can't use it in cooperation with our own, closed source project.
• 916[12:40:53] <ratrace> it has zero to do with overtaking that particular piece of software
• 917[12:40:57] <Deknos> and your developers mostly only maintain stuff which is important to your/their business case
• 918[12:41:10] <Deknos> and break everyone else usecase
• 919[12:41:13] <apollo13> wut?
• 920[12:41:21] <ratrace> for example, we have some enterprisey web apps. we can't use AGPL frontend components without giving out the code for our proprietary parts eitehr. yeah, no.
• 921[12:41:21] <Deknos> plenty examples for that..
• 922[12:41:56] <ratrace> AGPL won't change that one bit, only prevent corps from using and possibly contributing back.
• 923[12:42:09] <apollo13> what ratrace said
• 924[12:42:27] <apollo13> AGPL imo effectively limits collaboration on a project since you will never see any business funded work on it
• 925[12:42:33] <ratrace> there's a megaton of GPL software, not overtaken by anyone, where corporations are contributing and everyone is benefiting from those contribs
• 926[12:42:35] <Deknos> they do not contribute back most of the time.
• 927[12:42:46] <alextee> it all boils down to whether you agree that all proprietary software is unethical or not
• 928[12:42:50] <Deknos> that kills advantage against other companies.
• 929[12:42:53] <ratrace> Deknos: they don't really have to, unless they redistributed GPL'd code
• 930[12:42:55] <apollo13> Deknos: yeah but those "not most of the time" is still better than never
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• 932[12:43:16] <Deknos> apollo13, not my experience.
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• 934[12:43:45] <apollo13> Deknos: ok, but you have yet to show me a thriving AGPL open source project :)
• 935[12:43:48] <ratrace> but many companies also DO contribute. whole linux kernel is primarily corporate backed. many Linux userland compoents are backed by RedHat, IBM, Canonical, SUSE gmbh or whatever its called now, and many many many many many others.
• 936[12:43:57] <apollo13> thriving as in money flowing in
• 937[12:44:14] <ratrace> we use GPL software and we contribute. mostly with bug reports, sometimes with code. We can't do that with AGPL because we can't use AGPL to begin with.
• 938[12:44:47] <apollo13> Deknos: see it's not a matter of whether most companies contribute or not. with AGPL you effectively forbid them from contributing
• 939[12:44:58] <ratrace> this.
• 940[12:45:28] <Deknos> no. it does not. suse and co also contribute to agpl code.
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• 942[12:45:38] <ratrace> also, GPL doesn't require contribs unless you redistribute the code. that's different. and the entire GPL ecosystem is just fine with that, in fact more and more software is going even more permissive with MIT and BSD licenses.
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• 944[12:45:41] <apollo13> Deknos: but compare the magnitudes
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• 946[12:46:51] <apollo13> for instance Django would nowhere be where it is now if it were AGPL
• 947[12:47:00] <apollo13> hack I wouldn't even contribute to it on my free time
• 948[12:47:07] <unborn> ratrace: gpl is the best one for creators and contributors :)
• 949[12:47:17] <apollo13> I want instagram and friends to be able to use Django…
• 950[12:47:26] <ratrace> anyhoo, that was my $.02 on why I abhore AGPL.
• 951[12:47:29] <apollo13> guess what, they even contribute back ;)
• 952[12:47:40] <ratrace> unborn: it is, I like it better than permissive ones. I want your modifications. Feed me code! :)
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• 954[12:48:40] <Deknos> you have your opinion based on your experience. i have my opionion based on my experience. :)
• 955[12:49:07] <apollo13> Deknos: I never argued against that. But please show me one AGPL project that is doing well (I am really curious)
• 956[12:49:22] <apollo13> (and has a significant size)
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• 958[12:49:37] <Deknos> significance related to what?
• 959[12:50:05] <Deknos> even if i NEED a project which is doing good and use agpl if it is not important to you, you always can say it is not significant
• 960[12:50:10] <unborn> ratrace: be free as viral can be free.. share and care - I think they do not understand it at all.. never mind.. want to be proper open sourced ? - take linux licence.. also my two cents here..
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• 962[12:50:50] <apollo13> Deknos: significant in the sense that is has a big installation count for instance
• 963[12:51:03] <apollo13> and I should have added opensource project to that
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• 965[12:51:42] <apollo13> and no I am not trying to tell you that a project is not significant, just that the number of successfull opensource AGPL projects is probably low
• 966[12:52:02] <apollo13> take webframeworks as an example, which names out of your head do you know which are AGPL?
• 967[12:52:19] <apollo13> I know none, but that might be just me. maybe there is a whole AGPL world I do not know
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• 970[12:53:01] <ratrace> the fallacy of "overtaking" libre software is that even if a corp steps in and starts to bombard with changes THEY want.... uh, fork it. won't be the frist time. most successful example is Nextcloud. If your non-copr community agrees and dislikes the "overtaking" they'll come to the fork and the origin will die.
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• 972[12:53:24] <ratrace> *non-corporate
• 973[12:53:41] <apollo13> I lost track of *cloud, nextcloud is the "more" open cloud variant, right?
• 974[12:53:55] <ratrace> it's the libre one.
• 975[12:54:42] <ratrace> libre !== open. source can be open with a gigaton of limitations and conditions. libre has specific meaning.
• 976[12:55:20] <unborn> apollo13: it didnt.. cloud is computer running it.... basically means same as on your computer.. difference is how it runs - not delivered anyway gpl is the way I would say.
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• 978[12:55:54] <apollo13> ah nextcloud is agpl, explains why we can't use it :)
• 979[12:56:03] <unborn> runs or delivered.. saas or on your own.. its basically same.
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• 981[12:56:22] <apollo13> unborn: oh I know, I still wouldn't use GPL unless I have to
• 982[12:56:49] <unborn> ratrace: I think they do not understand..
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• 984[12:57:12] <apollo13> "I still wouldn't use *GPL unless I have to" I should have said
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• 988[12:57:51] <unborn> ratrace: the point of the code is to write it first and then when someone with more brain can make it better be it - make it better and share in same matter like me, but just keep my name there..
• 989[12:58:48] <unborn> apollo13: sure. its your choice and very good choice.
• 990[12:59:06] <udet> hi all, can someone help with uefi? my uefi does not detect grub installation on internal nvme. it detects the efi partition of my windows on a sata drive, it detects the very same debian system on an external usb drive. but when I try to write it on my internal nvme... nothing. it even does not detect it when using --bootloader-id=BOOT
• 991[12:59:51] <udet> the partition seems to be ok, boot, esp flagged. labeled EFI and its first in a GPT parttable
• 992[13:00:27] <udet> only difference between grub install on usb and on nvme is, that for my usb drive I also use --removable
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• 994[13:00:36] <unborn> code is poetry {forever gpl} :)
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• 998[13:05:24] <dvs> udet, have you tried reinstalling grub using the installation usb?
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• 1000[13:05:34] <udet> hmmm... interestingly using --removable for internal nvme fixed the issue... but why?
• 1001[13:06:03] <udet> dvs... its kind of a custom full encrypted installation getting snynchronized between multiple devices..
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• 1004[13:06:42] <udet> basically the problem occurs with my pc, not with my laptop
• 1005[13:07:08] <udet> well, can live with using --removable but still would like to understand whats going on
• 1006[13:07:38] <nvz> what are you even talking about
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• 1008[13:08:15] <nvz> youve mentioned an argument multiple times without the command or output
• 1009[13:08:22] <nvz> youve mentioned an argument multiple times without the command or output
• 1010[13:08:27] <nvz> meh
• 1011[13:08:45] <nvz> odd keyboard layout here :P
• 1012[13:08:49] <dvs> nvz, the installer tries to install the UEFI bootloader and fails sometimes. But then it asks if it can use the removable option to see if it works.
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• 1014[13:09:16] <udet> dvs, but why would the removable option work when default does not?
• 1015[13:09:19] <nvz> odd keyboard layout here :P
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• 1018[13:09:26] <nvz> so this is grub-install then?
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• 1020[13:09:33] <udet> nvz, yes
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• 1023[13:11:11] <udet> replaced-url
• 1024[13:11:46] <udet> it basically creates btrfs snapshot, syncs them to a device and makes it bootable
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• 1026[13:12:17] <udet> if someone wants to grab it, take it as open domain
• 1027[13:13:08] <udet> however, I would like to spare the separate handling for pc_crypt and just use a "default" as you see in else
• 1028[13:13:10] <nvz> udet: and this is an internal disk?
• 1029[13:13:16] <udet> yes
• 1030[13:13:27] <udet> directly installed in nvme slot on mainboard
• 1031[13:13:28] <nvz> on the pcie bus?
• 1032[13:13:34] <udet> yes
• 1033[13:14:16] <nvz> because for some reason itd seem grub isnt seeing it withous scanning for removable devices.. which is a bit odd
• 1034[13:14:26] <udet> same thing on dell laptop works out, probably my mainboards firmware is messed up...
• 1035[13:15:11] <udet> I tried to add entries using efibootmgr and they just disapeared
• 1036[13:15:32] <nvz> is there another device with an ESP partition in the system?
• 1037[13:16:16] <dob1> are there any advantages to use exim ad smart relay host for sending mail to a server over than sending it directly to the server?
• 1038[13:16:20] <dob1> *as
• 1039[13:16:24] <nvz> ie another bootable sata disk with ufie perhaps
• 1040[13:16:40] <nvz> uefi even
• 1041[13:16:46] <udet> nvz yes, there is a sata drive conaining windows, but it also didn't work with that drive detached
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• 1043[13:17:10] <nvz> hmm.. I was think maybe it discovered the other device and stopped searching
• 1044[13:17:21] <nvz> and that option makes it look harder
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• 1046[13:17:45] <udet> nvz, that was my thought before detaching it. but still then I would expect the firmware to start with the nvme drives :-D
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• 1049[13:20:27] <omac777> Good morning, when I install any package now it says Timeout reached. Even worse my gnome desktop no longer shows my username in the login list. it just shows a textbox "username" and when I press enter it just returns to being an empty username text box. The policykit-1 gave me an error after an upgrade recently and it seems it's not running. I've tried reinstalling it but I get the timeout reached
• 1050[13:20:27] <omac777> error there too.
• 1051[13:22:16] <ksk> "I am getting the timeout" is not really a helpful, technical statement. How about pasting that error (to replaced-url
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• 1053[13:22:50] <ksk> I assume you do have a working internet connection on that box?
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• 1055[13:24:13] <omac777> at the moment, I can't replaced the hard-drive with another one that has a different os as a backup plan in cases like these.
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• 1058[13:25:30] <iflema> sid?
• 1059[13:26:14] <omac777> yes
• 1060[13:26:46] <iflema> apt update times out?
• 1061[13:26:54] <omac777> network connection was ok. It downloads/extracts...triggers...then timeout reached.
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• 1063[13:27:15] <omac777> no apt-get install/apt-get upgrade....
• 1064[13:27:35] <iflema> k
• 1065[13:27:38] <omac777> Yesterday's upgrade did something
• 1066[13:28:01] <ksk> !debian-next
• 1067[13:28:01] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not* on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is invite only)." it means you did not read it's on irc.oftc.net. See also replaced-url
• 1068[13:28:29] <ratrace> also, don't run sid if you have to come here with such questions.
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• 1070[13:28:59] <omac777> during policykit-1 upgrade...I got Timeout reached...I haven't been able to recover the gnome desktop since. I tried reinstalling policykit-1 but I get Timeout reached.
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• 1072[13:29:06] <omac777> k
• 1073[13:29:10] <omac777> thanks.
• 1074[13:29:24] * iflema thanks k
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• 1076[13:29:59] <nvz> udet: yes well preliminary look at the source.. the code is identical except it does hd_devices normally and fd_devices when doing removable.. so i'd have to track down that definition to figure out whats going on and I'm mobile right now so ..
• 1077[13:30:24] <udet> nvz np
• 1078[13:31:05] <udet> it works that way, now I have to figure out why grub still wants to access the usb disk... I forgot something obviously :-D
• 1079[13:31:26] <udet> ls
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• 1081[13:32:34] <omac777> How do I get invited to #debian-next? I can't join.
• 1082[13:33:03] <omac777> forget I asked.
• 1083[13:33:17] <omac777> it's on a different irc node.
• 1084[13:33:28] <udet> what is debian-next?
• 1085[13:33:42] <udet> for what
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• 1093[13:42:36] <StyXman> I know this is an LDAP specific question, but #ldap is silnet, so maybe one of you know: I'm getting confused about auth to the service at bind time. I know I can use a bind user/pass, but it seems an implementation I'm confronted to is actually using the user/pass it wants to auth for its login purposes. That is, if pepito is trying to login to this service whose implementation I'm talking about, the service connects to LDAP using pepito's user and
• 1094[13:42:36] <StyXman> password. does that make sense?
• 1095[13:42:39] <ratrace> udet: for next release(s) of Debian, like Bullseye, and Sid's permanently next
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• 1102[13:50:23] <udet> ratrace, thanks
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• 1111[13:58:04] <ksk> StyXman: I can follow your explanation, so it makes some sense. From what I know you will want to always use a dedicated bind-user - and most, if not all the software I encountered supports that.
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• 1113[13:58:45] <alextee> ratrace, if you dont mind having a look, replaced-url
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• 1119[14:02:45] <StyXman> ksk: yeah, but I just tested, and as long as I use *any* user's DN and its password, i can bind and authentyicate other users. that shocked me. I don't remember/have no idea if that's something you can configure on the LDAP server.
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• 1126[14:12:19] <ratrace> alextee: "You may not charge for the software" is not compatible with (A)GPL
• 1127[14:13:07] <alextee> ah, right. i was thinking it would still work in this case. i will remove that part
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• 1129[14:13:19] <alextee> (borrowed lots of parts from mozilla's)
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• 1131[14:13:35] <ratrace> you may not impose ANY additional restrictions to the license itself. the restrictions on name usage is not on the software
• 1132[14:13:46] <ratrace> license = (A)GPL
• 1133[14:14:29] <ratrace> but you should really go through this with a lawyer. I think maybe FSF is giving out free consultations in such matters
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• 1135[14:14:51] <alextee> last time asked they tried to charge me a large amount :/ i think they changed the way they do things
• 1136[14:16:42] <alextee> thanks anw
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• 1139[14:18:08] <alguien> How do you find out which package generated a directory in /usr/share?
• 1140[14:18:52] <alextee> maybe I can just have the trademarked icons externally and the name of the program as a build option
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• 1143[14:21:07] <StyXman> alguien: dpkg -S /usr/share/some/file
• 1144[14:21:48] <alguien> thanks StyXman I tried -s
• 1145[14:22:29] <StyXman> heeh
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• 1251[16:04:09] <ocx32> hi all, i have the nginx system version and one that i isntall using src running on 1 system, i am trying to apt-get remove nginx and it is complaining replaced-url
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• 1253[16:04:43] <annadane> replaced-url
• 1254[16:04:50] <annadane> !tell ocx32 about pastebin.com
• 1255[16:05:36] <ocx32> <?
• 1256[16:05:37] <ratrace> ocx32: apparently it's not installed...
• 1257[16:05:46] <ocx32> it is...
• 1258[16:05:54] <ratrace> dpkg -l | grep nginx says what?
• 1259[16:05:54] <dpkg> ii | grep nginx says what 3.9-14.3 ratrace's private porn collection
• 1260[16:06:01] <ratrace> dpkg: stfu :)
• 1261[16:06:02] <dpkg> SHUT THE FUCK UP :)!
• 1262[16:06:04] <annadane> "1 not fully installed or removed." try dpkg --configure nginx? but yes, try dpkg -l first
• 1263[16:06:06] <ratrace> oof
• 1264[16:06:33] <ocx32> replaced-url
• 1265[16:06:50] <ratrace> ocx32: right, so apt remove nginx-full
• 1266[16:07:04] <ratrace> nginx is actually a metapackage
• 1267[16:07:13] <annadane> i'm stupid, listen to ratrace
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• 1270[16:08:06] <annadane> also for future reference (as you'll see dpkg told for via private message) if you're going to use pastebin.com append 'raw' like i did or use paste.debian.net, some people won't click pastebin.com links out of principle because of the reasons mentioned
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• 1272[16:08:43] <annadane> told you via private message*
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• 1274[16:10:48] <ratrace> the bot is really annoying with all the triggers that don't explicitly referr to it.
• 1275[16:11:05] <ratrace> it should react to !commands only and nothing else.
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• 1345[17:16:39] <PyR3X> what is the proper sources.list for testing? I'm a bit confused by the documentation
• 1346[17:17:08] <PyR3X> deb replaced-url
• 1347[17:17:13] <PyR3X> but what else?
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• 1349[17:17:39] <LtL> bullseye i would think PyR3X
• 1350[17:18:07] <PyR3X> LtL: I want to track testing so it will roll past bullseye I'm just confused on what other security/updates deb lines there needs to be
• 1351[17:18:42] <ratrace> !sources.list
• 1352[17:18:42] <dpkg> A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Buster" has the lines: "deb replaced-url
• 1353[17:18:51] <LtL> PyR3X: #debian-next on OFTC network is the place to ask.
• 1354[17:18:54] <ratrace> so just replace "buster" with "testing"
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• 1356[17:19:03] <PyR3X> you can't just replace buster with testing
• 1357[17:19:24] <PyR3X> it has to be deb replaced-url
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• 1359[17:19:39] <PyR3X> replaced-url
• 1360[17:19:52] <ratrace> oh, well
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• 1362[17:20:57] <dvs> PyR3X, testing doesn't get security updates
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• 1365[17:21:25] <PyR3X> dvs, so what is the significance of that repo?
• 1366[17:21:31] <PyR3X> documentation says: If you are tracking testing or the next-stable code name, you should always have a corresponding deb replaced-url
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• 1369[17:22:46] <dvs> PyR3X, The security repo is for security updates for the stable repo.
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• 1371[17:23:45] <PyR3X> dvs, replaced-url
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• 1373[17:24:46] <PyR3X> note the difference between "deb replaced-url
• 1374[17:25:08] <PyR3X> it's not "deb replaced-url
• 1375[17:25:23] <dvs> PyR3X, It says deb replaced-url
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• 1377[17:26:01] <PyR3X> dvs, no it's using <> as placeholders for either testing OR code-name
• 1378[17:26:31] <PyR3X> dvs, <"testing" or codename> the <> means "insert here"
• 1379[17:27:03] <PyR3X> dvs, deb replaced-url
• 1380[17:27:43] <PyR3X> aka deb replaced-url
• 1381[17:27:56] <dvs> PyR3X, replaced-url
• 1382[17:29:26] <PyR3X> dvs, I understand that but it is unclear to me why the documentation recommends adding that repo if you are tracking testing
• 1383[17:29:57] <dvs> dunno
• 1384[17:30:11] <PyR3X> I'm guessing there are security updates to unstable that land in there?
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• 1391[17:39:11] <greycat> You're probably reading documentation from a decade ago, when the testing-security repository actually *did* something, for a few brief months after it was created.
• 1392[17:39:43] <greycat> Now shoo, off with you, to the testing support channel.
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• 1488[19:21:08] <rangergord> Are there any Wheezy mirrors left online? It went out of security EOL 6 months ago
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• 1490[19:22:31] <quadrathoch2> rangergord look into archive replaced-url
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• 1492[19:23:44] <annadane> rangergord, see also snapshot.debian.org
• 1493[19:26:17] <rangergord> oh nice, thanks
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• 1573[20:29:31] <jelly> rangergord, also, wheezy elts repo is still online and ELTS people were making patches up until this June
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• 1605[21:02:01] <jo3> hi, anyone recommend a link where I can look more into jails for debian? I looked this one replaced-url
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• 1608[21:03:12] <greycat> kfreebsd is a whole different version of the operating system, not based on Linux
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• 1610[21:03:34] <jo3> hmm, i see
• 1611[21:03:37] <greycat> Linux has chroot, and various kinds of containers, and then various virtual machines. I'm sure one of them will suit you.
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• 1613[21:04:41] <jo3> upto now, I have used debootstrap and chroot for virtulization. but do you have any other recommendations that i can look into?
• 1614[21:05:39] <tomreyn> chroot is not related to virtualization.
• 1615[21:05:56] <greycat> it's related in the sense that it serves some of the same goals
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• 1619[21:06:31] <tomreyn> if you want containers (light-weight alternative to virtualization), you can look into lxc
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• 1622[21:06:57] <jmcnaught> jo3: systemd-nspawn/machinectl (in the systemd-container package) are another option, quite simple to use.
• 1623[21:06:59] <greycat> there's also systemd-nspawn (?) and docker
• 1624[21:07:34] <jo3> I see, thanks guys will look into it
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• 1651[21:28:28] <annadane> hmm interesting
• 1652[21:28:36] <annadane> installing lxc makes apt want to remove busybox
• 1653[21:29:48] <allan_wind> I need to build a large backup volume probably a pair of 18tb disks with the option to add two more. The default choice is ext4 + mdadm raid10. Is there a better option? I have used lvm in the past, and I though it added complexity. btrfs is apparently going away. xfs? Is zfs still via fuze?
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• 1655[21:30:35] <quadrathoch2> Why would btrfs going away? It’s getting more adoption now
• 1656[21:30:58] <allan_wind> I am fresh off corruption from mdadm raid1 corruption, btw, when a old wdc disk kicked the bucket
• 1657[21:31:09] <quadrathoch2> And yes zfs will probably always stay in fuse because of license issues
• 1658[21:31:35] <allan_wind> quadrathoch2: btrfs... what I read, probably when redhat dropped support for it a while back
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• 1660[21:32:09] <quadrathoch2> But red hat is not a Linux overlord ^^ and btw fedora is adopting it with the next release
• 1661[21:32:42] <allan_wind> quadrathoch2: not arguing, and I appreciate you pushing back on fud
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• 1664[21:33:17] <quadrathoch2> allan_wind, so I would suggest going btrfs/zfs if you like cow systems, or going mdraid+xfs/ext4 depending on data
• 1665[21:33:24] <greycat> Btrfs was included as a "technology preview" in Red Hat Enterprise Linux 6 and 7; it was removed in RHEL 8 in 2018.[21][30][31][96][97]
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• 1667[21:33:40] <sney> zfs isn't in fuse, it's out-of-tree/dkms
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• 1669[21:33:51] <greycat> replaced-url
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• 1672[21:34:31] <quadrathoch2> sney right, :/ didn’t think correctly on thst
• 1673[21:34:39] <quadrathoch2> that
• 1674[21:35:04] <sney> and it works every well IME.
• 1675[21:36:10] <allan_wind> quadrathoch2: I never used a cow based fs. What's your advise?
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• 1677[21:37:41] <sney> for a big backup volume md is probably still a smart choice, particularly because md recovery is so easy
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• 1679[21:38:05] <allan_wind> sney: k, it served me well for years till recently
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• 1681[21:38:38] <quadrathoch2> Yeah I would say for easyness it’s mdraid - btrfs - zfs
• 1682[21:38:41] <sney> zfs is grand though there's a bit of a learning curve with pools and datasets and so on
• 1683[21:39:45] <allan_wind> extending madm raid10 array is lengthy rebuild process, right?
• 1684[21:40:20] <allan_wind> 2->4 disks
• 1685[21:40:30] <sney> fsvo lengthy? I don't remember so it must not be too bad
• 1686[21:40:43] <allan_wind> days
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• 1688[21:41:24] <allan_wind> to resync
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• 1690[21:42:38] <sney> zfs expansion is pretty much instant
• 1691[21:42:59] <allan_wind> sney; yeah, it's the not really in debian part that worries me a bit
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• 1694[21:43:26] <quadrathoch2> allan_wind huh? it's in the repos
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• 1697[21:43:33] <sney> it's in contrib. it's maintained as an official package, in practical terms.
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• 1699[21:43:50] <sney> there's a license issue but otherwise it's "in debian" as much as anything
• 1700[21:44:09] <sney> the zfsonlinux repo hasn't been needed for 2? years
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• 1704[21:47:28] <sney> replaced-url
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• 1706[21:48:25] <allan_wind> sney: thx, I was trying to figure out if popcon could tell me anything
• 1707[21:48:28] <sney> huh, marked for autoremoval on sunday. well, I'm sure they'll fix it before bullseye
• 1708[21:49:12] <quadrathoch2> sney are you using the contrib or bpo version?
• 1709[21:49:41] <sney> the bpo version is also contrib
• 1710[21:50:14] <quadrathoch2> yeah, meaning the buster version
• 1711[21:50:25] <sney> my media server has the bpo version, this desktop is running bullseye. so both are on zfs 0.8.4
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• 1713[21:52:08] <quadrathoch2> thanks
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• 1718[21:58:11] <allan_wind> so either stick with mdadm or take a ride on the zfs train? Any reason to prefer btrfs to ether of those? Btw, it looks like zfs is 0.7.12 in buster/contrib. Any concerns with that?
• 1719[21:58:25] <allan_wind> you mentioned, sney, you were running 0.8.4
• 1720[21:58:39] <mason> allan_wind: 0.7 doesn't do TRIM, doesn't have native encryption. Not really a huge deal.
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• 1722[21:59:48] <ratrace> allan_wind: btrfs is mighty fine these days.
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• 1725[22:01:07] <annadane> ,v zfs-utils
• 1726[22:01:08] <judd> No package named 'zfs-utils' was found in amd64.
• 1727[22:01:25] <mason> ,v zfsutils-linux
• 1728[22:01:26] <judd> Package: zfsutils-linux on amd64 -- stretch/contrib: 0.6.5.9-5; stretch-backports/contrib: 0.7.12-2+deb10u1~bpo9+1; buster/contrib: 0.7.12-2+deb10u2; stretch-backports-sloppy/contrib: 0.7.13-1~bpo9+1; buster-backports/contrib: 0.8.4-1~bpo10+1; bullseye/contrib: 0.8.4-1; sid/contrib: 0.8.4-1
• 1729[22:01:45] <annadane> backports ^
• 1730[22:01:58] <annadane> (if 0.7 isn't good enough for you)
• 1731[22:02:28] <ratrace> 0.8 fixes a lot of bugs nevre backported to 0.7
• 1732[22:02:39] <allan_wind> more like if there was a gotcha I would grab the bpo
• 1733[22:02:43] <mason> I like building the upstream package, but at the moment the systemd build builds incorrect systemd units. The sysvinit build works as expected.
• 1734[22:03:17] <mason> Sometime I need to look at what Debian ships, as those systemd units are correct.
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• 1736[22:03:57] <allan_wind> file systems is such a weird thing... you don't really know till you need expand, or run fsck, or a disk dies on you
• 1737[22:04:23] <quadrathoch2> allan_wind I like btrfs especially for / as it is way easier to troubleshoot in comparison to zfs. it doesn't have the dkms issue, as it is built in (but the recommended way imho is going backports kernel
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• 1739[22:05:07] <mason> Hm, I can't really speak to how hard it is to troubleshoot ZFS, as I never have to do it.
• 1740[22:05:55] <allan_wind> I used lvm and I thought it just added complexity. It was also slower than native mdadm1 at the time. This a while bac
• 1741[22:05:55] <allan_wind> k
• 1742[22:06:04] <ratrace> problem with zfs is not so much troubleshooting, as it's bootstrapping
• 1743[22:06:18] <mason> Bootstrapping?
• 1744[22:06:23] <allan_wind> can you / on zfs?
• 1745[22:06:27] <mason> Of course.
• 1746[22:06:33] <ratrace> mason: setting up a root on zfs system
• 1747[22:06:38] <mason> Not with the Debian installer, though. That'd be a debootstrap install.
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• 1749[22:06:53] <ratrace> ie. the part I'm saying is a problem with zfs :)
• 1750[22:06:57] <mason> ratrace: Yeah, it's not too painful to do. Be nice if the installer did it for us, but, eh.
• 1751[22:07:12] <mason> ratrace: Given that all my systems are ZFS on root, I guess that's not a real hurdle.
• 1752[22:07:15] <ratrace> it's not painful, or impossible, just... hassle.
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• 1754[22:07:32] <ratrace> especially problematic if you, like me, rent servers.
• 1755[22:08:01] <ratrace> _especially_ especially problematic if you rent at OVH and their rescue systems come with custom kernels where it's impossible to build your zfs modules
• 1756[22:08:25] <mason> You can't supply an ISO to use for rescue?
• 1757[22:08:48] <mason> Yeah, I guess if you have no way to control rescue media, that'd be a pretty significant problem.
• 1758[22:08:56] <ratrace> you can at OVH, but that's an order of magnitude of extra hassle. and not all providers allow that.
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• 1760[22:09:55] <ratrace> recently ZFS bit my ass, ate my data, and I ate a lot of crow for that. now trying out btrfs in production as well, and I'm pleasantly surprised.
• 1761[22:10:31] <allan_wind> ratrace: any idea what happened?
• 1762[22:10:37] <mason> ZFS tends not to eat anyone's data... Did you discuss it in #zfsonlinux? I'd be curious to read about it.
• 1763[22:10:52] <ratrace> allan_wind: there's a known bug in ZFS wrt zfs send|receive and changing -L option between runs
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• 1765[22:11:47] <mason> ratrace: Um. Last thing you said in the channel (other than "FUD") mentions automated deletions. That's not necessarily a safe thing to do on any filesystem. Was this related?
• 1766[22:12:08] <ratrace> it wasn't.
• 1767[22:12:23] <ratrace> I had this... fallout with ZFS.... few months ago.
• 1768[22:12:35] <mason> That's unfortunate. I hope btrfs works out for you.
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• 1770[22:13:15] <allan_wind> ratrace: Can you give me some color on why you were pleasantly surprised with btrfs?
• 1771[22:13:52] <greycat> !btrfs gotchas
• 1772[22:13:52] <dpkg> [btrfs gotchas] replaced-url
• 1773[22:13:56] <ratrace> because i've thrown a test system into the grinder, and it's humming along just fine. unlike few years ago when it'd happily lose data.
• 1774[22:14:16] <allan_wind> ratrace: heh
• 1775[22:15:13] <ratrace> allan_wind: I've dd'd mirror members, i've yanked power cords, I've shaken and yelled at the disks, I've unplugged RAM chips, it didn't die. in _one_ occasion it refused to mount, but I think any FS would do that if you nuke its superlbocks deliberately :)
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• 1777[22:16:24] <ratrace> granted, it's not bug free and there's some known use cases one should avoid. but hey, they're in the spotlight . ZFS ate my data due to a years old obscure bug.
• 1778[22:16:53] <mason> Which one, out of curiosity
• 1779[22:16:54] <mason> ?
• 1780[22:17:08] <allan_wind> ratrace: you might want to talk to your therapist about how you treat computers (supposed to be a joke)
• 1781[22:17:52] <ratrace> mason: I think it's this one: replaced-url
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• 1783[22:18:36] <ratrace> allan_wind: my anger management is just fine thankyouverymuch :)
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• 1785[22:20:05] <mason> ratrace: Thanks! Yeah, that was fairly obscure but exciting if it bit you.
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• 1787[22:20:59] <ratrace> mason: it really hurt my feelings because it happily checksummed invalid data. it destroyed my belief into its robustness, it lost my trust.
• 1788[22:21:29] <ratrace> the good side is that I've added independent checksum sweeps for backups so future problems of _this_ kind (csummed but corrupt data) would be caught.
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• 1834[23:13:09] <ska> Is there a backports or other way to install the testing version of firefox-esr?
• 1835[23:13:29] <greycat> ,v firefox-esr
• 1836[23:13:30] <judd> Package: firefox-esr on amd64 -- jessie: 52.8.1esr-1~deb8u1; stretch-updates: 60.6.3esr-1~deb9u1; stretch: 68.4.1esr-1~deb9u1; buster: 68.7.0esr-1~deb10u1; jessie-security: 68.9.0esr-1~deb8u2; stretch-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; stretch-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb9u1; buster-proposed-updates: 68.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; buster-security: 68.10.0esr-1~deb10u1; bullseye:
• 1837[23:13:31] <judd> 68.10.0esr-1; sid: 68.10.0esr-1
• 1838[23:14:00] <greycat> The "testing version of firefox-esr" is 68.10.0esr-1 and the buster version is 68.10.0esr-1~deb10u1
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• 1840[23:14:12] <greycat> Why would you want to go *backward*?
• 1841[23:15:47] <sney> that's not even backward, it's the same version built for stable
• 1842[23:16:23] <greycat> Fair enough, but either way, the question makes no sense.
• 1843[23:16:24] <sney> ska: if you're seeing an older version in buster, make sure you have buster-security enabled and/or do another apt update
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• 1846[23:18:13] <ska> I'm looking for a newer version, not older. My application is breaking on a regex bug that I can't explain.
• 1847[23:19:04] <ska> 'SyntaxError: invalid regexp group' plus some diagnostics. Running a VUE application.
• 1848[23:19:09] <greycat> So what delusion led you to think that the version of firefox-esr in *testing* which has ZERO security updates would be newer than that of stable, which has the BEST security updates?
• 1849[23:19:21] <sney> ska: buster-security and bullseye have the same version of firefox-esr. are you looking for regular non-esr firefox? that's up to version 78, but only in sid
• 1850[23:20:03] <ska> greycat: just the normal dilusion, nothing special ;)
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• 1854[23:20:35] <greycat> If you want a non-ESR firefox, just download it straight from mozilla.com. Do NOT try to use a post-stable package.
• 1855[23:21:04] <ska> greycat: i assume sid would be even more risky than testing,...
• 1856[23:21:11] <greycat> !don't break debian
• 1857[23:21:11] <dpkg> dont break debian is probably replaced-url
• 1858[23:21:16] <greycat> DO NOT use a package from EITHER ONE.
• 1859[23:21:46] <sney> unless you were to upgrade to testing first, anyway.
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• 1861[23:22:10] <ska> greycat: so You recomment the binary version from firefox instead ?
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• 1863[23:22:25] <greycat> At least that one will not screw your entire system.
• 1864[23:24:30] <ska> Has anyone else seen this "invalid regex group" issue in firefox 68.10?
• 1865[23:25:07] <foul_owl_> I'm having an issue with my display after rebooting. Using the latest proprietary nvidia driver from the repo. At 60 hz, if I move a window to a certain region of the screen, the image on my screen gets skewed
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• 1868[23:25:50] <foul_owl_> If I move, say, a thunar window to the region, everything is fine
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• 1870[23:26:08] <foul_owl_> But if I move a terminator window, it gets messed up
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• 1879[23:32:02] <foul_owl_> Are there any sort of driver or x settings I can try adjusting?
• 1880[23:32:29] <sney> intermittent visual artifacts are a hardware problem 99% of the time, but I think we've been down this road before
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• 1882[23:33:17] <foul_owl_> Hardware problems can be caused by moving an x.org window?
• 1883[23:33:26] <foul_owl_> I'm not sure I understand, I'm sorry
• 1884[23:33:41] <sney> bad memory on your gpu can cause artifacts in some applications while appearing fine in others
• 1885[23:33:50] <foul_owl_> Ah gotcha!
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• 1888[23:34:06] <foul_owl_> Is there a gpu memtester I can try, like memtest86?
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• 1898[23:37:03] <sney> foul_owl_: there's cuda-memcheck in nvidia-cuda-toolkit though I don't know how effective it is
• 1899[23:37:41] <foul_owl_> Thank you, it's something at least!
• 1900[23:37:59] <foul_owl_> The nvidia-settings dialog doesn't really give me too many options to tweak
• 1901[23:38:11] <foul_owl_> Basically just refresh rate and that's it
• 1902[23:38:32] <sney> and if you have another nvidia card lying around (like an older one from before an upgrade) testing with that would help rule out a driver issue.
• 1903[23:38:37] <foul_owl_> I wish there was a way to try underclocking for example
• 1904[23:39:18] <foul_owl_> I have one, but it doesn't have an HDMI output or support 4k resolution
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• 1907[23:42:22] <foul_owl_> My card has 6 gigs of ram. Is there a way to tell x.org to use a different region of video memory as the start address?
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• 1910[23:43:28] <foul_owl_> That would tell me for sure if it's the video card ram that's going bad
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• 1912[23:45:17] <foul_owl_> Or any other diagnostic tools for gpu
• 1913[23:46:06] <sney> unless the bad dram is in the middle of the range. it looks like there are some memory options for the nvidia-current module itself, there might be something worth playing with there
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• 1916[23:47:16] <foul_owl_> Thank you!
• 1917[23:47:52] <foul_owl_> unfortunately that cuda-memcheck tool is for checking cuda dev errors, not testing the ram on the card
• 1918[23:48:04] <foul_owl_> Ok so I will have to build the module manually then?
• 1919[23:48:28] <sney> no, they are module load options. look at man modprobe
• 1920[23:48:33] <foul_owl_> Thank you!
• 1921[23:48:36] <sney> and modinfo nvidia-current
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• 1924[23:51:52] <foul_owl_> So I can try and tweak some of those params
• 1925[23:52:30] <foul_owl_> I just don't want to trash my $300 1 year old video card
• 1926[23:52:44] <foul_owl_> Without at least having some data
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