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4[00:00:55] <Deihmos> switched my plex server to debian. I didn't realize ubuntu installed so much unnecessary software.
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67[00:45:31] <HyP3r> hello, I have here a really trange problem with debian jessie (yes I know its old-stable, I will update the system a few days later...)
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69[00:45:58] <HyP3r> The problem: I know that its possible to install *.deb packages with "apt install ./foo.deb"
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76[00:47:04] <HyP3r> The strange thing is now that if I do this I get this error "E: Release 'foo.deb' for '0ad' was not found" 58631 times
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78[00:48:06] <HyP3r> The '0ad' is in every line something else 0ad-data, 0ad-data-common, ...
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81[00:48:25] <HyP3r> I don't know whats going on...
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87[00:50:42] <__m4ch1n3__> use "dpkg -i foo.deb" to install local packages
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90[00:51:18] <HyP3r> __m4ch1n3__: with that strategy I have the problem to solve the dependencies
91[00:51:42] <__m4ch1n3__> then install dependencies with apt
92[00:51:55] <HyP3r> And I know that should work... on other machines its working, only on this system this is not working
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95[00:52:15] <HyP3r> I also get this errors: "Note, selecting 'libtidy0' for regex '.'"
96[00:52:21] <HyP3r> Isn't that strange?
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102[00:53:16] <__m4ch1n3__> hard to say without whole output
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106[00:54:12] <HyP3r> __m4ch1n3__: I can show you this: "apt-get install ./tree_1.7.0-3_amd64.deb &> error.log" if you like
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109[00:54:35] <jmcnaught> HyP3r: apt-get doesn't install local files
110[00:54:49] <HyP3r> __m4ch1n3__: as I said debian 8. The package tree_1.7.0 is for debian 8
111[00:54:55] <HyP3r> jmcnaught: so I should use apt?
112[00:54:56] <__m4ch1n3__> except you add a local path to sources.list
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114[00:55:28] <__m4ch1n3__> use apt to install dependencies and dpkg for the local .deb file
115[00:56:07] <HyP3r> replaced-url
116[00:56:25] <__m4ch1n3__> so you try install a stretch package on jessie?
117[00:56:44] <HyP3r> no
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119[00:56:59] <__m4ch1n3__> debian 8 is stretch
120[00:57:05] <HyP3r> replaced-url
121[00:57:10] <__m4ch1n3__> or
122[00:57:12] <__m4ch1n3__> ?
123[00:57:27] <HyP3r> Yeah I was confused sorry but I downloaded this jessie package and tried to install on jessie
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125[00:57:41] <jmcnaught> HyP3r: why not just "apt-get install tree"?
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127[00:58:17] <HyP3r> jmcnaught: good question. In first step I had a really foreign deb file and got those tons of exepections. Then I thought I try to install a very common package (tree) to make sure everything works
128[00:58:26] <HyP3r> And even this common package doesn't install
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135[01:00:37] <HyP3r> So... now?
136[01:01:04] <jmcnaught> HyP3r: what are you trying to install? Keep in mind that installing a random .deb that isn't from Debian's repositories is the same as giving root access to the package creator
137[01:01:05] <__m4ch1n3__> the more you explain the less it make sense to me :D
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143[01:01:54] <HyP3r> jmcnaught: I know... but that doesn't really help me :/
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145[01:02:32] <jmcnaught> HyP3r: if you tell us what you're actually trying to install someone might be able to help you
146[01:02:50] <HyP3r> As I said tree :)
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151[01:03:53] <HyP3r> Here you can see the errors replaced-url
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154[01:04:16] <jmcnaught> HyP3r: you cannot install a local .deb file with apt or apt-get. These are for downloading packages (and their dependencies automatically) from remote repositories. apt/apt-get then uses dpkg to install each package in order. If you want to install a .deb file, use "dpkg -i foo.deb". If that fails because of missing dependencies, you can use apt/apt-get to get them
155[01:05:19] <jmcnaught> apt doesn't understand "./tree_1.7.0-3_amd64.deb" or any other path to any local file because it's not designed to be used that way
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158[01:06:06] <HyP3r> jmcnaught: well thats not true. On my other server this command exactly works?
159[01:06:23] <HyP3r> see: replaced-url
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161[01:06:41] <HyP3r> Or replaced-url
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164[01:09:09] <fling> Which app to use for parsing /sys/class/thermal/thermal_zone0 ?
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166[01:09:46] <fling> I found this line in a bash script -> cpuTempC=$(($(cat /sys/class/thermal/thermal_zone0/temp)/1000)) && cpuTempF=$((cpuTempC*9/5+32))
167[01:09:48] <jmcnaught> HyP3r: that might be true for the same-named apt tool on Ubuntu but read the manpage for apt. It doesn't mention that it has this feature at all. replaced-url
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169[01:10:42] <format_c> fling: acpi isn't an option?
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173[01:11:05] <fling> format_c: will check…
174[01:11:14] <jmcnaught> also it's silly to download a package from packages.debian.org to install it manually, just install it from apt. If there's something else you're trying to install besides tree, provide more details about it for help
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177[01:12:12] <format_c> acpi -t gives me the temperature of anything ACPI related.
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180[01:13:11] <fling> format_c: I don't have acpi command. Which package to install?
181[01:13:29] <fling> Also which one for lm_sensors?
182[01:13:30] <format_c> acpi
183[01:13:39] <fling> E: Package 'acpi' has no installation candidate
184[01:13:42] <fling> hmm
185[01:13:50] <themill> jmcnaught: apt in stretch does actually understand apt install ./foo.deb
186[01:13:54] <rant> ,find bin/acpi
187[01:13:58] <judd> Search for bin/acpi in stretch/amd64: acpi: usr/bin/acpi
188[01:14:09] <fling> D'oh! -> deb replaced-url
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190[01:14:39] <rant> ,i lm-sensors
191[01:14:40] <judd> Package lm-sensors (utils, extra) in stretch/amd64: utilities to read temperature/voltage/fan sensors. Version: 1:3.4.0-4; Size: 109.5k; Installed: 385k; Homepage: replaced-url
192[01:14:53] <format_c> , acpi
193[01:14:55] <rant> fling: raspbian is NOT Debian
194[01:15:04] <fling> Ok, sorry :p
195[01:15:18] <jmcnaught> themill: oh. is it an undocumented feature or am I just blind?
196[01:15:20] <rant> !raspbian
197[01:15:20] <dpkg> Raspbian is a distribution <based on Debian> made specifically for the <Raspberry Pi>. Raspbian is not Debian and it is not supported in #debian. Please use #raspbian on irc.freenode.net for support. replaced-url
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201[01:16:15] <themill> jmcnaught: I don't think it's documented in the man page. (It can also do build-deps from a dsc or from an unpacked source package, also not documented in the man page)
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203[01:16:46] <jmcnaught> themill: thanks for correcting me :)
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205[01:17:20] <rant> fling: you wouldnt have pci or acpi tools because the arch doesnt have either type of hardware
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208[01:17:52] <themill> btw the advantage of using apt over dpkg in such cases is that apt will resolve the dependencies in advance and, if they can't be resolved, not install the package
209[01:18:32] <fling> rant: I still want a command to show temperatures. Should I create a bash script?
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211[01:19:33] <rant> fling: I have no idea, perhaps you should ask #raspbian I have never used a RPI only an OPI and I used armbian which came with a script for it
212[01:20:01] <jmcnaught> HyP3r: in case you missed it, the feature of apt installing local .deb files like you're trying to do is not available in jessie, but was added in stretch
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216[01:20:42] <rant> HyP3r: fwiw dpkg -i if you merely want to just install a deb, use gdebi if you need to resolve dependencies
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224[01:22:37] <HyP3r> jmcnaught: ok.
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226[01:22:53] <HyP3r> rant: thanks I actually use gdebi. And its working pretty good
227[01:23:06] <HyP3r> But yes... I have to update the system jessie is getting old...
228[01:23:09] <rant> HyP3r: yes its nice, and works on the command line or as a GUI
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230[01:23:40] <HyP3r> At the moment I get this strange error "Dependency is not satisfiable: python3-cffi-backend-api-max (>= 9729)"
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232[01:23:58] <rant> HyP3r: I'd imagine Buster will release by July maybe sooner.. I personally upgraded jessie machines I had last June
233[01:24:08] <M6HZ> Hello
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235[01:24:26] <rant> ,v python3-cffi-backend-api-max
236[01:24:27] <judd> No package named 'python3-cffi-backend-api-max' was found in amd64.
237[01:24:43] <rant> HyP3r: what package are you installing and where did you get it?
238[01:24:46] <HyP3r> rant: yeah. The most I also updated but two are missing they are now bothering me
239[01:25:02] <rant> a direct link would be nice if you have one
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242[01:27:29] <M6HZ> I was trying to read the man page of gcc, but I received "No manual entry for gcc". I found out that apparently the man pages comes along with a different package : gcc-doc -> replaced-url
243[01:28:51] <M6HZ> `apt-cache show gcc-doc` reports "N: Can't select versions from package 'gcc-doc' as it is purely virtual"
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245[01:29:44] <edi_> jhutchins_wk, you might have been right from the start
246[01:30:00] <edi_> about apt waiting for input
247[01:30:24] <edi_> so if you were right, thanks for the pointers and sorry for me being sceptic at first :)
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259[01:34:08] <corner_cubicle> M6HZ: gcc-doc is not in the main repository, you need to add contrib and non-free to your /etc/apt/sources.list
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265[01:35:40] <M6HZ> corner_cubicle: Why should I need to add non-free packages to read the man of a GNU program ? That doesn't seem appropriate does it ?
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267[01:36:07] <themill> !gcc-doc
268[01:36:07] <dpkg> The man pages for <gcc> are in non-free, as they are released under the <GFDL> with invariant sections, so they do not meet the <DFSG>. To install, ask me about <non-free sources> and install the gcc-doc package. If you are looking for man pages for printf, strchr etc then install the manpages-dev package.
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273[01:37:08] <rasusto> gcc has non-free documentation...whaaat
274[01:37:12] <themill> (basically, GCC upstream is allowed to put sections into those docs that noone else is allowed to edit, and that is contrary to what Debian is about)
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276[01:38:12] <rasusto> perhaps we can create a package with the invariant sections removed? How significant are the invariant sections?
277[01:38:28] <M6HZ> themill: how is that possible ? I thought all GNU software released under GPL ?
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279[01:39:34] <rasusto> the documentation license is separate from the software license
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281[01:40:27] <M6HZ> rasusto: yes but since when are GNU software man pages released under non free licences ?
282[01:40:35] <themill> M6HZ: not by a long way: GPL, LGPL, GFDL, AGPL, different versions of them plus different exceptions.
283[01:40:41] <rasusto> and no we can't remove the invariant sections that the whole point of them being invariant
284[01:40:44] <M6HZ> themill: I know that
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286[01:41:01] <themill> well that's not what you said 2 min ago...
287[01:41:29] <rasusto> I know I was wrong
288[01:41:39] <corner_cubicle> M6HZ: You can check this page for more info: replaced-url
289[01:41:46] <M6HZ> corner_cubicle: thanks
290[01:42:13] <themill> (what dpkg said)
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292[01:42:32] <corner_cubicle> I really don't understand legal terms, it would have been great if we didn't need to worry about all this, but sadly that's not the case..
293[01:43:27] <themill> Free software is an inherently political thing and the only way it works is by working within copyright law, which means you need licenses.
294[01:43:55] <themill> And then every armchair lawyer thinks they can write a better licence...
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297[01:45:01] <rasusto> unless you release it into the public domain
298[01:45:17] <themill> which you cannot do in most jurisdictions
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300[01:45:53] <themill> (which is why, for instance CC0 exists, but that's just Yet Another Licence)
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302[01:48:26] <de-facto> SSH: broken pipe: why do my new stretch servers close SSH connections on their own? some tweaks for sshd needed to let it idle happily with open sessions?
303[01:49:00] <M6HZ> corner_cubicle: that's crazy. I didn't think I would live a day during which I would learn that the GNU project is not free enough. Wow.
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305[01:49:11] <M6HZ> What Stallman says about this issue ?
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308[01:50:16] <themill> It's his idea. He is completely OK with shoving the GNU Manifesto and other polemic into every documentation and preventing it from being removed.
309[01:52:17] <M6HZ> themill: I had never heard that before
310[01:52:32] <M6HZ> themill: Do you have a link to show me some examples ?
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316[01:52:49] <M6HZ> themill: I'm really curious to see that. How is it possible ?
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321[01:56:09] <themill> M6HZ: there are a few invariant sections within the gcc docs, for example replaced-url
322[01:56:29] <blackflow> de-facto: yes, look up TCPKeepAlive in ssh_config manpage
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325[01:59:26] <de-facto> blackflow, so i set in /etc/ssh/sshd_config the three options "TCPKeepAlive yes", "ClientAliveInterval 300" and "ClientAliveCountMax 3" then?
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328[02:00:35] <blackflow> de-facto: ssh_config, or ~/.config
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332[02:01:27] <blackflow> dez: ClientAlive* is for sshd_config, on the server side yes. TCPKeepAlive is ssh_config on the client side (as well we ServerAliveInterval there)
333[02:01:39] <blackflow> de-facto: ^^^ (sorry dez, mistab)
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335[02:02:03] <de-facto> blackflow, I want to configure it on the server side
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338[02:03:02] <blackflow> well you can do that too then. just keep in mind the downsides of increasing those intervals, it'll take longer to detect actual connection loss, if that means anything to your use case even
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340[02:03:28] <M6HZ> themill: wow
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344[02:05:41] <dez> Okay
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418[02:58:48] <Deihmos> using an ntfs drive causes high cpu use. damn
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420[02:59:27] <blackflow> Deihmos: FUSE
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424[03:00:32] <de-facto> blackflow, i think it works thanks :)
425[03:00:50] <Deihmos> i would like to change the file system but hard to backup all that data. movies and tv shows
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544[04:43:18] <Jmabsd> err, are KVM/LibVirt host-only network interfaces supposed to be called "vmbrN" or "brN"???
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558[04:48:14] <Jmabsd> oh dear, there's "virbrN" too.
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578[05:13:17] <Jmabsd> the documentation for Debian libvirt+KVM is dangerously unclear on the topic of networking. i only find contradicting, unclear, unauthoritative documents on this topic.
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621[05:47:47] <karlpinc> Jmabsd: See also: /usr/share/doc/udev/README.Debian.gz
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623[05:49:01] <Jmabsd> karlpinc: i got one line from you, ok will see.
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625[05:49:34] <karlpinc> Jmabsd: Don't know if it's relevant, but it is related.
626[05:50:54] <rwp> Jmabsd, Choice of bridge name for KVM use is up to you. You can name it whatever you prefer. I use br0 but others use virbr0. Six of one or a half a dozen of the other.
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640[06:03:07] <Jmabsd> rwp: but wait, the way you allocate a bridge networking interface, is in /etc/network/interfaces right.
641[06:03:22] <rwp> Correct.
642[06:03:24] <Jmabsd> rwp: there, you do "auto NIC\niface NIC inet static ...
643[06:03:35] <Jmabsd> the prefix you use, will tell the system what driver to use, no?
644[06:03:50] <Jmabsd> rwp: if you want to call it "firefly", it wouldn't work, because there is no firefly drive r??
645[06:04:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1486
646[06:04:11] <Jmabsd> so you somehow instruct through the use of name, what kind of interface you want to allocate
647[06:04:18] <Jmabsd> or?
648[06:04:26] <Jmabsd> is there away around it, so your bridge can be called potato0 ?
649[06:04:30] <rwp> Here is a working example, replaced-url
650[06:04:32] <Jmabsd> or what's yourp oint
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652[06:04:53] <Jmabsd> rwp: exactly, here you call it "br0".
653[06:05:35] <rwp> I could have called it parsnip0 just the same...
654[06:05:42] <Jmabsd> rwp,karlpic: i have one more kvm-on-debian question: for host-only networking, is using a bridge the primary way, or is there some other high-performant, well-functioning method too, maybe an even better mnethod?
655[06:05:52] <Jmabsd> rwp: how will the system understand that parsnip0 is a bridge?
656[06:06:11] <rwp> It contains "bridge_ports eth0"
657[06:06:23] <Jmabsd> rwp,karlpic: normally i'd wildguess the name i'd want would be "vlan0", "vlan" meaning "a networking interface that connects you to one given guest VM only".
658[06:06:40] <Jmabsd> rwp: ah so the "bridge_ports none" makes it a bridge. ok.
659[06:06:43] <rwp> The "vlan" name is usually meant for vlans.
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662[06:07:13] <friendofafriend> Usually you're bridging VMs for networking.
663[06:07:43] <Jmabsd> friendofafriend: why?
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665[06:09:08] <friendofafriend> Because you're providing some service to the network, and you want to make it seem as though your VM is just another host on the LAN.
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670[06:12:13] <Jmabsd> it sounds like just a "virtual_interface0" which was made for host-to-single-guest would make more sense, however a bridge may function as exactly that, i guess.
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673[06:12:33] <Jmabsd> the name "bridge" for a host-only virtual networking interface does sound a bit peculiar, but ok.
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699[06:28:54] <friendofafriend> Jmabsd: Nah, you want other hosts on your LAN to communicate to the VM, so you use a bridge.
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702[06:30:21] <Jmabsd> friendofafriend: that would be the reason to use a bridge, right.
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704[06:33:05] <friendofafriend> Yep, just host-to-VM and you'd have to NAT.
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706[06:34:35] <de-facto> anyone tried gogs.io instead of gitlab.com? Looking for a small footprint "github"-like git hosting webui...
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732[07:01:27] <Jmabsd> rwp,karlpinc: err, in /etc/network/interfaces , i get the complaint that "0 # MYCOMMENT" is not a valid number, and such
733[07:01:41] <Jmabsd> i thought the "iface" commands can be split over more lines,
734[07:02:04] <rwp> paste.debian.net the verbatim section
735[07:02:51] <Jmabsd> rwp: replaced-url
736[07:03:05] <Jmabsd> pasting the error message, sec
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738[07:03:21] <Jmabsd> rwp: replaced-url
739[07:03:49] <Jmabsd> aha, first complaint is that "bridge_ports none" is invalid in that there's no "none" interface, fixing ..
740[07:04:09] <Jmabsd> rwp: replaced-url
741[07:04:18] <rwp> In the future please remove both the network and broadcast lines. That isn't your problem now. But they are redundant.
742[07:04:26] <Jmabsd> replaced-url
743[07:04:52] <Jmabsd> really why are they redundant?
744[07:05:20] <rwp> Because they are calculated from the netmask. Unless you override them.
745[07:05:47] <rwp> Also, it is more compact to use the 192.168.1.2/24 syntax but that is at least not redundant.
746[07:06:23] <Jmabsd> ah ic.
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749[07:06:48] <Jmabsd> ahh so all needed is just address IPHERE/24.
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755[07:11:37] <Jmabsd> rwp: starting to see that "#" commands are not fully supported in this file, sigh.
756[07:12:50] <Jmabsd> ..ok that fixed it.
757[07:12:55] <rwp> I think comments must be on lines by themself.
758[07:13:23] <rwp> I think if you do not want to use a bridge that you should consider using the libvirt default network or the host networking.
759[07:18:18] <nevivurn> I'm using rxvt-unicode as my terminal emulator. Is there any way to disable mouse for applications? That is, so I don't need to disable mouse in vim on every host I ssh into?
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762[07:19:28] <rwp> nevivurn, If you figure that out please let me know too.
763[07:19:37] <nevivurn> Will do...!
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767[07:23:49] <flyingbutter> how do i tell which driver bumblebee is using
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773[07:28:06] <Jmabsd> the /etc/network/interfaces file should be extended with support for partial-line comments.
774[07:28:38] <flyingbutter> for a gpu?
775[07:31:18] <Jmabsd> flyingbutter: for its file contents, e.g. "address 1.2.3.4 # I chose this IP for so and so reason" - this is not supported
776[07:31:25] <Jmabsd> you need instead to dedicate a whole separate line to the comment.
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779[07:33:25] <Jmabsd> rwp,flyingbutter: okay so, i created the bridge interface now. and the next question becomes, what's the best way to plug it in to the KVM.
780[07:33:32] <flyingbutter> i dont follow
781[07:33:35] <Jmabsd> this section of the libvirt/QEMU/KVM documentation is Particularly Unclear
782[07:33:41] <Jmabsd> flyingbutter: i now have a bridge device "kvm_bridge0".
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784[07:34:05] <Jmabsd> i now like to set up a VM using "virt-install", that should use the bridge.
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786[07:34:20] <Jmabsd> maybe "--network=bridge:kvm_bridge0,model=virtio".
787[07:34:43] <friendofafriend> Oh, you're using libvirt/qemu from the CLI? It can be kind of hairy.
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790[07:36:25] <jmcnaught> virsh isn't so bad
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792[07:36:37] <Jmabsd> friendofafriend: right, the documentation does not exist, that is a problem.
793[07:36:44] <Jmabsd> there are multiple unclear, unauthoritative documents
794[07:36:51] <Jmabsd> only
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797[07:37:40] <friendofafriend> You've probably already gone by the Debian wiki, then? replaced-url
798[07:37:54] <themill> interfaces(5) is not likely to grow an inline comment syntax given that it is documented that it does not have one and any strings with # in them would suddenly get broken.
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800[07:39:16] <flyingbutter> ?
801[07:39:28] <flyingbutter> im asking about a problem with my optimus laptop
802[07:39:55] <themill> flyingbutter: yours is not the only discussion going on amongst the 1474 inhabitants of this channel, however.
803[07:40:08] <friendofafriend> themill: He was pinged.
804[07:40:22] <themill> with multiple f<tab> that will happen
805[07:40:33] <friendofafriend> Sure will, IRC for ya.
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810[07:46:39] <Jmabsd> themill: ok that's a weakness.
811[07:47:59] <friendofafriend> Hmmm? Tab completion is a weakness, Jmabsd?
812[07:48:25] <Jmabsd> friendofafriend: it's not. what i meant was, inability to end an explaining comment at a line, is a weakness.
813[07:48:37] <Jmabsd> so if you want string constants, they should have a delimiter
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815[07:48:59] <friendofafriend> Well, you've got the line before it. Not so bad, and your interfaces file is going to be pretty simple anyway.
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843[08:15:20] <Deihmos> is there a terminal app that will show cpu usage, disk activity and so so on
844[08:15:39] <Deihmos> similar to windows performance monitor or task manager
845[08:16:20] <friendofafriend> Deihmos: You might like htop.
846[08:16:30] <jelly> or atop
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853[08:20:29] <Jmabsd> re kvm: For a VirtIO network interface on the guest side, if the host-side configuration had no "mac=NNN.." option set for the interface, will the mac keep changing or what?
854[08:20:48] <Jmabsd> replaced-url
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859[08:23:39] <friendofafriend> Jmabsd: Have you tried to make an example with virt-manager?
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863[08:26:06] <Jmabsd> friendofafriend: i go via CLI.
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865[08:26:58] <skinhaptik> So I am unable to connect to my debian repos. I'm getting the error "Could not connect to ftp.au.debian.org:80 (150.203.164.37). - connect (111: Connection refused)"
866[08:27:10] <skinhaptik> How does I fix dis
867[08:27:14] <friendofafriend> skinhaptik: Tried another repo?
868[08:27:29] <skinhaptik> friendofafriend: ye I tried the us server and nothing much happened
869[08:27:41] <skinhaptik> I can try again if you'd like? I think it throws a different error
870[08:27:54] <rwp> Jmabsd, I can't help but think that #virt might be a good place for your questions. Although it is probably going to be quiet at this time of day.
871[08:28:01] <friendofafriend> Sure, errors are answers.
872[08:28:06] *** Quits: Texou (~Texou@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
873[08:28:08] <skinhaptik> alright let's give it a shot
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875[08:28:40] <rwp> skinhaptik, Also check if you can reach it in a standard web browser. In case it is something blocking between you and it.
876[08:28:48] <friendofafriend> Tell ya', that virt-manager sure is handy. And once you get a feel for what kind of configuration files it generates, you don't need it much anymore.
877[08:29:17] <skinhaptik> rwp: okay I'll try after this
878[08:29:35] <skinhaptik> Currently it's just updating. But it looks like it's all connecting
879[08:29:59] <skinhaptik> Yeah so this is what happened last time - maybe I should wait - but it's stuck at "0% [Working]"
880[08:29:59] <friendofafriend> skinhaptik: Must have scared the devil out of it.
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882[08:30:15] <skinhaptik> Yeah it looks stuck
883[08:30:37] <friendofafriend> It can take a while, especially on a slower drive.
884[08:30:50] <skinhaptik> friendofafriend: I'm on an SSD tho
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891[08:31:50] <skinhaptik> friendofafriend: I'm on an SSD tho
892[08:31:54] <skinhaptik> I don't think this is supposed to happen. It's still stuck. Just wait a few minutes or something?
893[08:32:06] <friendofafriend> skinhaptik: I see some recommendations of an "apt-get clean".
894[08:32:18] <skinhaptik> okay I can try that I suppose
895[08:32:49] <skinhaptik> I always thought clean was just to clear downloaded packages tho
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897[08:33:24] <skinhaptik> yep, back to 0% [Working]
898[08:33:27] <rwp> friendofafriend, I do use virt-manager but mostly create VMs using virt-install. I have scripted my typical configuration to I don't need to remember all of the options.
899[08:33:42] <skinhaptik> Perhaps I should just another server
900[08:35:02] <rwp> skinhaptik, I cannot connect to replaced-url
901[08:35:08] <friendofafriend> rwp: virt-manager insists on doing some things that can interfere with GPU passthrough when making a new VM, but it's happy to start and stop them anyway.
902[08:35:15] <friendofafriend> apt-get clean
903[08:35:17] <friendofafriend> apt-get clean
904[08:35:18] <friendofafriend> apt-get clean
905[08:35:18] <friendofafriend> apt-get clean
906[08:35:18] <friendofafriend> apt-get clean
907[08:35:21] <skinhaptik> rwp: ah maybe it's just down?
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909[08:35:24] <skinhaptik> I tried apt-get clean
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912[08:35:27] <friendofafriend> Sheesh, keystuck. Sorry.
913[08:35:39] <friendofafriend> Guess I need a new middle mousebutton.
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915[08:36:16] <rwp> Maybe... Try a different repo and see what you can get. replaced-url
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917[08:36:38] <themill> the .au mirror will often make you sad. deb.debian.org is a much better choice
918[08:36:40] <rwp> I thought that maybe you were getting a little repetitive. :-)
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920[08:37:30] <rwp> friendofafriend, I am usually using a serial port console for headless server VMs. Graphics? Bah, humbug!
921[08:37:37] <friendofafriend> rwp: New mouse on the way, the dratted thing is finally headed for the landfill in the sky.
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923[08:37:42] <skinhaptik> yeah yeah
924[08:38:12] <rwp> I have two mice that the rubber on the wheel has turned to goo. Really nasty. I had to go shopping myself the other day to replace them.
925[08:38:19] <skinhaptik> Maybe .au is just down for now or something. So I guess I'll just try another time
926[08:38:26] <friendofafriend> rwp: I'm doing GPU passthrough just so I don't have to clog up my host with CUDA nonsense.
927[08:38:59] <rwp> friendofafriend, I need to ask you about that pretty soon then. I have been wanting to set up something with best speed local graphics.
928[08:39:10] <themill> skinhaptik: deb.debian.org is a much better choice than any of the Australian mirrors.
929[08:39:39] <themill> they are all pretty flaky and badly maintained.
930[08:39:49] <skinhaptik> themill, so like "ftp.deb.debian.org/debian/"
931[08:40:01] <themill> no, deb.debian.org/debian
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933[08:40:10] <friendofafriend> rwp: You'll find a lot of fantastic information in this repo about passthrough. replaced-url
934[08:40:17] <themill> !stretch sources.list
935[08:40:18] <dpkg> A suitable /etc/apt/sources.list for "Stretch" has three lines: "deb replaced-url
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939[08:40:45] <skinhaptik> themill okay I'll try that I suppose
940[08:40:58] <friendofafriend> rwp: The biggest problem I had with getting things working was outdated documentation, silly blog posts, running a kernel a few versions too old. It was a bag of guts.
941[08:41:14] <rwp> friendofafriend, Yes! That looks perfect. I have saved that URL off. It's after midnight here and getting too late for new stuff to go into my brain tonight.
942[08:41:51] <themill> skinhaptik: it is normally plenty fast enough although it does prioritise availability over speed. The only time I don't use it is when dist-upgrading desktops and I'd use the mirror across campus for that.
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944[08:42:00] <friendofafriend> Oh gosh, I'd not want to start after midnight. I couldn't get it working for weeks.
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955[08:46:06] <skinhaptik> themill ye okay it still appears to be stuck yet again
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960[08:48:28] <rwp> skinhaptik, Can you use your standard web browser to brows replaced-url
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976[08:57:23] <wingman2> does anyone have a good way to generate /etc/network/interfaces on first boot? it's blank on debootstraped systems.
977[08:58:27] <wingman2> i have a script that loops over files in /sys/class/net/*
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982[09:00:47] <rwp> wingman2, I just copy in what I want. I have a script that writes the output I want there.
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987[09:02:26] <rwp> wingman2, Here is a portion of the script just to give you ideas: replaced-url
988[09:02:33] <wingman2> i don't know what i want though
989[09:03:01] <rwp> Let's start there then. What do you want?
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997[09:06:08] <wingman2> What I want and what I currently have
998[09:06:10] <wingman2> is for the file to be automatically populated with whatever network devices are available, since I don't know them beforehand
999[09:06:45] <rwp> You can figure out your network devices with 'ip ' which is short for 'ip addr show'.
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1002[09:07:34] <rwp> The old names would be something like eth0 but the new systemd names would be something like enp3s0 or similar.
1003[09:08:05] <rwp> Then you need to decide if you are assigning a static IP address of if you are using DHCP assigned IP addresses.
1004[09:08:12] <__m4ch1n3__> and if its wireless then more like wl40sdfu09sdf80usf0sdf90sduf0sd89fs
1005[09:08:29] <wingman2> replaced-url
1006[09:08:45] <wingman2> is what i came up with
1007[09:08:48] <rwp> For wireless one might be wanting to use wicd and a graphical pick tool, or wicd-curses from the console.
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1011[09:09:39] <rwp> So the problem with walking through /sys/class/net/* is that there are more devices there than one wants in a /etc/network/interfaces file.
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1015[09:10:33] <wingman2> not on first boot
1016[09:11:24] <rwp> I guess it depends. I just peeked at sevaral systems. Some will be just perfect with what you have. But the ones with bridges configured are not.
1017[09:11:31] <sammm> can anyone suggest good python library(ies) for working with apt / deb packages?
1018[09:11:32] <rwp> So if they are simple systems then what you have looks good to me.
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1023[09:12:18] <rwp> wingman2, Looks good! Good job.
1024[09:12:58] <rwp> sammm, Searching I find python-apt which says it is.
1025[09:13:00] <rwp> ,v python-apt
1026[09:13:01] <judd> Package: python-apt on amd64 -- wheezy: 0.8.8.2; jessie: 0.9.3.12; stretch: 1.4.0~beta3; buster: 1.8.1; sid: 1.8.1
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1029[09:13:49] <wingman2> this is the first boot after a debootstrap install so no bridges are setup yet
1030[09:14:30] <wingman2> i just want sshd to work
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1033[09:15:27] <wingman2> so this is it, there's no better way?
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1053[09:25:43] <rwp> wingman2, That looks pretty good. Normally the debian-installer would set it up. But using debootstrap it is left to you. What you have written looks pretty good to me.
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1058[09:26:35] <wingman2> okay then. thanks
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1186[10:32:13] <Sveta> Hello :) How do I get an accurate listing of packages by the installed size of them plus their dependencies (i.e. the amount of space that would be freed if I removed them via apt-remove)? I think synaptic shows something like this but only for the package itself and for many of them this figure is not indicated.
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1193[10:38:28] <themill> Sveta: recursing through the dependencies is far too expensive to do
1194[10:39:26] <Sveta> Oh right :) And I am running out of space on /, how do I get enough information about this partition to see whether it is easy to resize? I have 10GB for / and everything else (around 60GB) for /home, the former is running out of space because of perl and lamp and texlive stuff
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1199[10:40:08] <Sveta> I'm interested in the partition filesystem and type to look at the possibility of increasing its size at the end, which would be the beginning of /home
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1206[10:42:27] <themill> !dpigs
1207[10:42:28] <dpkg> dpigs is a utility showing which installed packages occupy the most space. Available in the debian-goodies package.
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1209[10:43:04] <themill> getting rid of texlive documentation and perhaps fonts is an easy way to save space
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1211[10:43:27] <themill> (I assume you have 'apt-get clean' and checked you don't have a crazy large thing in /var/log)
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1220[10:46:14] <Sveta> I'm trying to _install_ latex, themill :)
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1222[10:47:10] <themill> avoiding the -doc packages etc then
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1225[10:48:21] <Sveta> Ah
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1228[10:49:11] <Sveta> replaced-url
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1232[10:50:10] <jelly> !sort by size
1233[10:50:10] <dpkg> [sort by size] aptitude search ~i -O installsize -F"%p %I", or see <sort by size sarge>, or see <dpigs>
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1236[10:50:50] <Sveta> Thanks for these tips about dpigs and other commands, jelly and themill :)
1237[10:51:51] <jelly> neither of those factoids cover autoinstalled dependencies
1238[10:51:57] <thms_> Sorry to ask this again but what's the option to tell apt to reinstall all missing files ? I'm using --reinstall but it doesnt install files in some /etc folder
1239[10:52:33] <thms_> -o Dpkg::Options::="--force-confask,confnew,confmiss"
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1241[10:53:09] <jelly> who wrote that --force- syntax parser
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1253[10:58:41] <themill> thms_: they are different options not one option with a comma separate list
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1255[10:59:52] <themill> that's also only for dpkg conffiles not for ucf config files
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1259[11:02:24] <thms_> themill, yeah I assume I only needed confmiss
1260[11:03:02] <themill> removing the file and then using confmiss is the simplest, yes
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1266[11:07:34] <shtrb> does ftpmirror get contrib and nonfree by default ? (thinking of getting my offline mirror setup again , but this time the correct way )
1267[11:07:57] <shtrb> *ftpsync and not ftpmirror
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1319[11:39:39] <wrksx> I was reading man smartd.conf and it's quite complicated
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1321[11:39:54] <wrksx> I'm not really sure how to configure it now :/
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1324[11:41:35] <wrksx> Some stuff are kinda confusing like "'-f' to
1325[11:41:35] <wrksx> report failures of Usage (rather than Prefail) Attributes"
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1327[11:42:21] <wrksx> I guess I need to read man smartd too
1328[11:42:22] <shtrb> what is confusing about pre fail and fail ?
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1331[11:43:24] <wrksx> shtrb, it's just that I dunno about these terms, so I don't know ifg prefail comes before or after failure of usage, and if both occur, will they both be reported ?
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1333[11:43:59] <wrksx> Maybe it'll be clear once I read more doc. Probably
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1337[11:48:02] <wrksx> In the man smartd.conf, I suppose that ATA specific parts apply to SATA as well ?
1338[11:48:14] <wrksx> is that correct?
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1392[12:25:05] <at0m> jhutchins: re: edi_'s issue with ansible and apt - that was needrestart getting in the way and waiting for user action
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1401[12:32:09] <Sveta> dpigs outputs only about top ten i would like more :)
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1408[12:33:27] <Fox> Sveta: dpigs -n 20 (man dpigs...)
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1472[13:24:24] <CrazyTux> swap file vs swap partition, which is a better approach?
1473[13:24:39] <CrazyTux> does Debian need a swap partition?
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1476[13:25:54] <ircarcs> CrazyTux: depends of usage
1477[13:26:51] <CrazyTux> ircarcs, please elaborate
1478[13:27:39] <jelly> set up swap if you have services or workflow that needs it. For example: on a laptop you plan to hibernate
1479[13:27:44] <ircarcs> you have to elaborate ! serveur / laptop / how much memory / type of applications ?
1480[13:28:01] <jelly> a server that runs applications with memory leaks
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1482[13:28:48] <CrazyTux> I am using a laptop for home and office use.
1483[13:29:05] <CrazyTux> I am not a developer.
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1487[13:33:14] <klys> the guideline is generally make a swap partition of roughly 2x the amount of ram you intend to put in your machine.
1488[13:33:49] <klys> it is much easier to resume=/dev/sda3 than it would be to resume from a swap file.
1489[13:33:55] <CrazyTux> klys, I have 4 GB of ram.
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1495[13:34:28] <blackflow> rule of thumb: it's always good to have some swap as there will always be unused pages in memory. I'd always recommend at least 2GB of swap lying around.
1496[13:34:42] <CrazyTux> ok
1497[13:34:44] <blackflow> klys: that gudeline is from 20 years ago, not today
1498[13:35:34] <rant> you need at least 1x ram for hibernate, but for just swapping unused pages and avoid crashing if you run out of ram, I too say 2GB is a good minimum its what I typically use
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1504[13:36:23] <CrazyTux> I have allocated 8 GBs for swap partition.
1505[13:36:51] <whislock> And how much ram do you have?
1506[13:37:19] <CrazyTux> 4 GBs
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1525[13:51:44] <jelly> CrazyTux: that's too much, man
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1530[13:53:16] <CrazyTux> jelly, ok
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1550[14:03:47] <NetTerminalGene> i upgraded to buster. congratulate me
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1558[14:07:22] <jelly> dpkg, tell NetTerminalGene -about debian-next
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1560[14:07:58] <NetTerminalGene> would they congratulate me?
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1675[15:14:50] <BuildTheRobots> can anyone advise on where to find the changelog for "systemd/stable 232-25+deb9u8 amd64" - it's showing as an update for stretch (proxmox) but the changelog seems to be missing from: replaced-url
1676[15:15:20] <greycat> !proxmox
1677[15:15:20] <dpkg> Proxmox Virtual Environment (Proxmox VE) is a GNU/Linux distribution <based on Debian>, providing a virtualization platform with <LXC> and <KVM>. It is not supported in #debian. There's an unofficial proxmox channel on Freenode. For official venues, see ##replaced-url
1678[15:15:39] <BuildTheRobots> my apologies
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1683[15:16:47] <themill> BuildTheRobots: replaced-url
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1687[15:17:34] <BuildTheRobots> thanks themill :)
1688[15:17:59] <themill> may or may not be relevant, of course. The package itself has a changelog and apt-listchanges is a thing
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1692[15:18:37] <wrksx> so smartd is 'polling' the disks every half an hour (default) and can run tests on scheduled times.
1693[15:19:08] <wrksx> Can 'polling' report errors?
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1696[15:19:54] <BuildTheRobots> themill: i used "apt changelog" which worked for other packages but was missing the file for systemd - that's how i found my url above (it was the one failing but there's other changelogs in that folder)
1697[15:20:12] <petn-randall> wrksx: smartd will report errors when it finds any, yes. Was that your question?
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1700[15:21:51] <wrksx> petn-randall, yeah, i got trouble understanding how it proceed. It's not very clear.
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1702[15:22:12] <wrksx> specially 'polling', i have no idea what it is and what it does
1703[15:22:26] <greycat> Polling means you simply try periodically.
1704[15:22:42] <greycat> Every 10 minutes, you run a thing. Or every hour. Or every 7 days. That is what polling is.
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1710[15:25:19] <BuildTheRobots> wrksx: you can poll current smart data from a drive (eg current state and counters) - `smartctl -x /dev/sdx | less`. The actual tests take the drive briefly offline and exercise it so they're a little different
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1713[15:26:01] <wrksx> so if I write "/dev/sda -a -o on -S on -s (S/../.././02|L/../../6/03)" in smartd.conf, this doesn't impact smartd polling behavior
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1719[15:27:42] <petn-randall> wrksx: "Note that the SMART automatic offline test command is listed as "Obsolete" in every version of the ATA and ATA/ATAPI Specifications."
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1721[15:27:56] <petn-randall> regarding -o on
1722[15:28:15] <wrksx> okay I didn't see that, but that an example from the conf file
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1725[15:29:34] <wrksx> also are sata drives managed like ATA drives?
1726[15:29:47] <petn-randall> wrksx: Actually, now that I look at the comment in /etc/smartd.conf, I think it's wrong. I'll file a bug report.
1727[15:30:02] <wrksx> petn-randall, you mean the example is wrong?
1728[15:30:02] <petn-randall> wrksx: S-ATA is also ATA, yes.
1729[15:30:10] <petn-randall> Yes, the example seems wrong.
1730[15:30:10] <wrksx> petn-randall, thx for confirming
1731[15:30:29] <wrksx> petn-randall, are you talkin about the -o or the scheduling aprt ?
1732[15:30:49] <petn-randall> -o on
1733[15:31:01] <petn-randall> That doesn't match the comment above it.
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1735[15:31:48] <wrksx> hum, I don't have this comment in my version
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1742[15:32:59] <wrksx> So I think I'm slowly getting it...
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1746[15:34:20] <wrksx> The SMART disk is collecting data on the go while the disk is running, and polling simply read these data periodically to find if any threshold has been reached, is that correct ?
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1756[15:39:27] <wrksx> regarding the SMART auto offline tests indeed it's in the man page, saying it's listed as obsolete
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1759[15:40:40] <petn-randall> wrksx: Yes, that's how smartd works.
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1762[15:42:02] <wrksx> petn-randall, okay, it took some time to figuring this out. So short tests and long tests are another feature added on top of that to help ensure the disk is behaving correctly
1763[15:42:09] <blackflow> just keep in mind absence of SMART errors does not mean absence of problems. it tends to err on the false negative side.
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1766[15:42:37] <petn-randall> wrksx: There are "online" attributes that always show current data, and then there are some values that can only be evaluated by doing a full disk scan (think defect sectors on a spinning platter HDD).
1767[15:43:02] <petn-randall> wrksx: Also what blackflow said. 1/3 of all HDDs fail without any prior SMART error.
1768[15:43:08] <wrksx> petn-randall, so a long test is a full disk scan?
1769[15:43:19] <petn-randall> yes
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1771[15:43:30] <wrksx> okay, I'm getting there
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1774[15:44:56] <wrksx> if my hdd fails without warnings that's okay, shit happens. But that would be stupid not to leverage smartd capabilities, right
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1777[15:46:08] <petn-randall> Indeed, yes.
1778[15:46:18] <karlpinc> wrksx: It all depends on how much energy you want to put into setup. Here's one of mine: /dev/sda -d sat -a -n standby,10 -o on -S on -s (O/../.././((00)|(06)|(12)|(18)))|(S/../.././00)|(L/../../7/((23)|(00))) -m root -W 2,40,45
1779[15:46:33] <wrksx> omg
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1782[15:47:25] <karlpinc> wrksx: The drives tend to recommend more testing than I have, but once I got it setup....
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1784[15:47:52] <karlpinc> wrksx: All that -s stuff is basically what times to run what tests.
1785[15:48:19] <wrksx> yeah that's the part I'll figure out at the end, I think that'll be okay
1786[15:48:32] <wrksx> -S seems like what averyone wants basically
1787[15:49:11] <wrksx> but it's rarely used in the examples
1788[15:49:28] <wrksx> karlpinc, what do you mean, more testing
1789[15:49:47] <wrksx> isn't -a supposed to be like ALL the tests ?
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1791[15:50:06] <karlpinc> wrksx: It could also be stupid not to setup raid, and lvm, and lvm caching (see: man 7 lvmcache) to make things more failure proof/faster. YMMV.
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1793[15:50:57] <karlpinc> wrksx: If you run smartmontools on the drive it will tell you to test every hour or every 20 minutes or some such. For some sort of "test". The smart vocabularly is strange and some tests are not really tests but reports.
1794[15:50:58] <wrksx> Yeah I've got software raid1 setup, it's a good thing.
1795[15:51:35] <blackflow> I really wouldn't bother because you can't tell if there really are any problems. Instead, focus on monitoring for any fallout. dmesg/kernel logs about failed ATA commands or similar. filesystem issues. ideally use a data checksummed fs like btrfs or zfs, but in absence of it, having redundancy for/with mdadm can help, and you can monitor that for problems coming from read/write failures.
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1797[15:52:30] <wrksx> blackflow, you mean wouldn't bother, setting up smartd ?
1798[15:52:45] <blackflow> for example, I have a disk with dozens of bad sectors that I'm still pushing forward, but it's in a mirror, and with a data checksummed fs, so it can catch fire for all I care, when it does, I'll probably stop procrastinating the replacement :)
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1800[15:53:17] <blackflow> wrksx: no, it's okay to get a notification from it for those cases where it DOES notice an issue. but I wouldn't bother with too much monitoring and testing through/of SMART attribs.
1801[15:53:41] <wrksx> okay fair enough
1802[15:53:47] <karlpinc> blackflow: The smart temperature monitoring is nice. To tell you when something's gone sideways.
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1805[15:54:19] <wrksx> I never had any disk fail on a raid setup, what does it look like?
1806[15:54:23] <blackflow> yeah, and raw values like pending/realloc sectors, when they start going up, it's a nice indication that stuff's has started happening
1807[15:54:50] <blackflow> wrksx: you get a nice email from mdadm about it kicking the disk out of the array after too many failures.
1808[15:54:58] <blackflow> (assuming you've set up email notifications)
1809[15:55:12] <blackflow> or just monitor logs, it logs that as well
1810[15:55:19] <wrksx> nice
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1812[15:56:35] <blackflow> it'll also log problems before it kicks out the drive, like inability to read or write a sector. I can't remember if it mails those too.
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1818[16:00:22] <wrksx> So a simple "/dev/sda -a -S on -s (S/../.././02|L/../../6/03)" seems like a sensible setting. Maybe increase the short tests frequency, apart from that...
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1880[16:25:14] <wrksx> re, power outtage got me
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1884[16:26:14] <wrksx> di I miss something
1885[16:26:16] <wrksx> =)
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1898[16:32:05] <wrksx> so smartctl -c says: Short self-test routine recommended polling time: 2 minutes
1899[16:32:18] <wrksx> and Extended self-test routine recommended polling time: 479 minutes
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1901[16:33:10] <FinalX> heh, I had an SSD that was happily storing information and reporting back to the OS that it did. meanwhile SMART was showing clean numbers and no errors whatsoever, happily purring along. Yet, the same data read back proved that the data that was actually on the disk was not the data that had been sent to it.
1902[16:33:22] <FinalX> Checksumming filesystems++
1903[16:33:52] <FinalX> (in reply to earlier :P)
1904[16:34:11] <wrksx> the only option I heard about is --interval, that can be configured in /etc/default/smartmontools
1905[16:34:15] <blackflow> *data checksumming (as many already checksum META data)
1906[16:34:27] <FinalX> blackflow: true :)
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1913[16:37:36] <wrksx> what is a "recommended polling time"? And is the "extended self test routine" what is refered to as the LONG test?
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1915[16:39:31] <jelly> about 3:50 ?
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1917[16:39:48] <jelly> (the latter: yes)
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1919[16:40:40] <wrksx> thx jelly. So how would one set a different polling time for short and long tests?
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1921[16:40:53] <wrksx> I mean I don't get it, really
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1923[16:41:12] <jelly> you don't have to
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1925[16:41:34] <jelly> that just shows the value the device reported.
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1928[16:41:53] <wrksx> you mean that smartd is automatically adjusting to those ?
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1930[16:41:54] <jelly> "if you do a short check, it's not worth looking at the results more often than every 2 minutes"
1931[16:42:01] <jelly> no
1932[16:42:04] <wrksx> uuuuuuuh
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1934[16:42:29] <jelly> at least, I don't think it does
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1936[16:42:38] <sn00ker> hi all
1937[16:42:43] <jelly> it's useful if you do it manually
1938[16:42:45] <sn00ker> What are the options for tapping a system? So there are so many known to me but I have the feeling to have forgotten something. I'm not talking about software I'm talking about an intrusion on the hardware. how can a system be compromised on the hardware?
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1940[16:42:53] <wrksx> jelly, got it thanks!
1941[16:43:19] <jelly> sn00ker: how is that a Debian question?
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1943[16:43:29] <jelly> perhaps you wanted ##security
1944[16:43:33] <jelly> or ##hardware
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1949[16:44:36] <sn00ker> So, for example, what I mean. if a system is encrypted. debian with dm-crypt. boat too. then I can still read the password in the memory. What are the possibilities? how can that be prevented? can debian be used between the hard disk instead of the ram?
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1954[16:45:14] <sn00ker> ok i go security ^^
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1959[16:48:54] <frikinz> Hi. I'm running sid and for the first time need to keep a package from stable: redmine. I could use hold but that's prob better to use pinning to follow stable for that package. Which P should I put? >1000 ?
1960[16:49:01] <__m4ch1n3__> would guess you need the key on every disk read/write if its encrypted
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1963[16:50:22] <whislock> frikinz: That is ill-advised, to say the least.
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1965[16:51:11] <joepublic> frikinz the simplest way to implement this would probably be apt install packagename/stable
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1967[16:51:30] <joepublic> having both stable and sid sources in your frankendebian's sources.list
1968[16:52:00] <whislock> !frankendebian
1969[16:52:00] <dpkg> When you get random packages from random repositories, mix multiple releases of Debian, or mix Debian and derived distributions, you have a mess. There's no way anyone can support this "distribution of Frankenstein" and #debian certainly doesn't want to even try. Ask me about <reinstall>
1970[16:52:09] <whislock> frikinz: ^
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1973[16:54:48] <n4dir> no idea why pinning should be better than setting it on hold.
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1975[16:55:04] <wrksx> now reading man smartctl, I'm having a headache
1976[16:55:13] <greycat> Pinning is fancier, more complicated, and more broken, so of course everyone tries to use it.
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1978[16:55:31] <n4dir> so for the same reason i never ever fooled with it.
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1983[16:58:42] <wrksx> From the man " SMART provides three basic categories of testing. The first category, called "online" testing, has no
1984[16:58:43] <wrksx> effect on the performance of the device. It is turned on by the ´-s on´ option."
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1987[16:59:09] <wrksx> shouldn't that be an uppercase S like `-S on` ?
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2010[17:10:51] <HeXiLeD> libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.27' not found
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2012[17:11:12] <HeXiLeD> while trying to run wire-desktop
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2014[17:11:20] <greycat> You are attempting to run a program that is not from, nor built FOR, Debian stable, on Debian stable (or older).
2015[17:11:43] <greycat> You need a version that's built for Debian stable, or you need to run something new enough to support the version you are trying to run.
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2019[17:13:23] <jelly> HeXiLeD: ...or run it inside a container that contains (parts of) the OS designed for that build
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2021[17:13:55] <Ooze> I've configured my fstab to create internal mountpoints originating from a mapped natwork drive. They internal mounts never seem to be available after boot, and I have to force a mount. Is there some way I should create some delay after the initial network mount? replaced-url
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2023[17:14:31] <jelly> HeXiLeD: is there a snap for that wire-desktop thing maybe? You could try installing and running it that way.
2024[17:14:46] <jelly> ,v wire-desktop
2025[17:14:47] <judd> No package named 'wire-desktop' was found in amd64.
2026[17:15:53] <ksk> Ooze: maybe mount them via systemd, and set the target (or whats it called again?) to activate after networking
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2028[17:16:27] <ksk> afaik there is no option to do that in fstab
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2030[17:16:44] <jelly> Ooze: well, noauto means it won't be mounted by default
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2033[17:17:02] <wrksx> hum, if smart reports "Extended self-test routine recommended polling time: 479 minutes" does that mean that performing a Long test using -s (L/../../6/00) can take around 479 minutes? 8 hours?
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2035[17:17:19] <wrksx> (4TB disk)
2036[17:17:27] <jelly> wrksx: yes.
2037[17:17:39] <HeXiLeD> judd: replaced-url
2038[17:17:59] <Ooze> jelly: /media/ivanka mounts fine. It's the ../uBackups/[Current]/ that doesn't automount
2039[17:18:13] <wrksx> jelly, I might try to avoid that I guess
2040[17:18:21] <jelly> HeXiLeD: that "debian based distributions" is a bald faced lie, there
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2043[17:19:23] <jelly> Ooze: oh, bind mounts fail?
2044[17:19:41] <jelly> I have no idea whether you need to escape [ or ] inside fstab or how to do it
2045[17:19:53] <Ooze> Yes
2046[17:20:05] <greycat> I'm guessing only whitespace is special, but haven't tried.
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2048[17:20:46] <jelly> systemd breaks assumptions about fstab by mounting everything in parallel instead of sequentially
2049[17:20:52] *** Quits: kirkland (~kirkland@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2050[17:21:32] <jelly> at that point it's safer and easier to just write a .mount unit and declare dependencies in there instead of using fstab
2051[17:22:10] <blackflow> aren't tehre x-systemd-herpderp options for fstab for that purpose?
2052[17:22:45] <jelly> it's still easier to make a proper mount unit than to learn what crap precisely to put in fstab
2053[17:22:52] <blackflow> (though I agree with jelly, proper .mount units are better)
2054[17:23:08] <blackflow> sd turns fstab into thos anyway, so just use the source luke
2055[17:23:12] <jelly> I didn't say they were better :-)
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2058[17:23:48] <blackflow> a'giht. corrected: I agree with jelly, and I also think proper .mount units are better)
2059[17:23:59] <blackflow> *a'ight
2060[17:24:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1555
2061[17:24:01] <jelly> I take great care to avoid mentioning my personal opinion about systemd's and its half assed attempts at backward compat
2062[17:24:05] <jelly> oh snap
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2065[17:24:55] <blackflow> true, but in context of this, SD already turns fstab into .mount units, which means .mount units are the native way to deal with mount points under sd, and thus "better" in that context.
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2067[17:25:16] <jelly> nod
2068[17:26:12] *** Quits: encod3 (~encod3@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2069[17:26:48] <jelly> Ooze: systemd-fstab-generator(8) may or may not document x-systemd-foo fstab stuff. I'll let you RTFM yourself.
2070[17:27:30] <jelly> ah. > See systemd.mount(5) and systemd.swap(5) for more information about special /etc/fstab mount options this generator understands.
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2072[17:28:13] <jelly> see. To learn how to efficiently use backward compat and avoid using the new stuff, you need to read the docs for the new stuff.
2073[17:28:40] <jelly> !eyeroll
2074[17:29:38] <joepublic> they are more like surgical strikes, support for very specific backwards-compatible scenarios (rather than backwards-compatible support in general, because who needs that)
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2082[17:31:42] <wrksx> "If Long Self-Tests of a large disks take longer than the system uptime, a full disk test can be per‐
2083[17:31:43] <wrksx> formed by several Selective Self-Tests"
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2085[17:31:54] <wrksx> damn
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2090[17:33:37] <wrksx> Even after reading the manual for smartctl, smartd and smartd.conf I stillf don't understand if long self test performed via -s L/../.././00 will impact performance or not
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2094[17:34:38] <wrksx> It's driving me crazy
2095[17:34:48] <petn-randall> wrksx: long - [ATA] runs SMART Extended Self Test (tens of minutes to several hours). This is a longer and more thorough version of the Short Self Test described above. Note that this command can be given during normal system operation (unless run in captive mode - see the '-C' option below).
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2099[17:35:44] <petn-randall> wrksx: Only the captive mode would block any I/O on the disk. It will perform I/O for the selftest as long as there aren't any other I/O operations pending from the OS.
2100[17:35:50] <wrksx> petn-randall, so "normal system operation" makes me think about "no much performance impact", is that what u understand ?
2101[17:35:57] *** Joins: starch (~user@replaced-ip)
2102[17:36:03] <petn-randall> light to not noticable, yes.
2103[17:36:17] <wrksx> ha, it'll wait for the device to be available, neat
2104[17:36:25] <petn-randall> However I'd still only run them at night when I/O is low, as they otherwise will take very long.
2105[17:36:28] <SerajewelKS> definitely not worse than a dmraid check/repair, for example
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2108[17:36:43] <nuxil> Hello.
2109[17:36:53] <wrksx> petn-randall, thank you so much
2110[17:37:33] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip)
2111[17:38:04] <petn-randall> wrksx: You're welcome :)
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2113[17:38:43] <nuxil> im trying to figure out how to make a backup task run once every hour. from my understanding i want to use crondtab or something.
2114[17:39:03] <SerajewelKS> nuxil: cron would be the tool for the job, yes
2115[17:39:06] <nuxil> and i need to place the script i want to run in /etc/cron.hourly
2116[17:39:13] <nuxil> is that correct ?
2117[17:39:30] <petn-randall> nuxil: That would be one option, yes.
2118[17:39:38] <nuxil> what kind of script ?
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2120[17:39:51] <petn-randall> nuxil: Whatever script you want.
2121[17:39:53] <SerajewelKS> whatever script you want to run
2122[17:40:03] <nuxil> it will run python scipts?
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2124[17:40:18] <SerajewelKS> it will run any executable
2125[17:40:23] <petn-randall> sure, anything that's executable.
2126[17:40:26] *** Quits: cdown (~cdown@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2127[17:40:30] <nuxil> alright.. thanks.
2128[17:41:12] *** Joins: diniwed (~gavron@replaced-ip)
2129[17:41:13] <nuxil> so my py file needs to be tossed in to this corn.hourly dir.. and do a chmod +x on.
2130[17:41:16] <wrksx> petn-randall, terminology makes it a nightmare for newcomers...
2131[17:41:33] <nuxil> nothing more? do i need to have 1st line in file #!/usr/bin/python or somthing aswell?
2132[17:42:00] <SerajewelKS> nuxil: if you can run it from the shell, then it will work in cron.hourly
2133[17:42:14] <SerajewelKS> nuxil: so yes, you need to set it up to be run by e.g. ./your-script
2134[17:42:18] <petn-randall> nuxil: Yes, you'll also need a shebang.
2135[17:42:20] <SerajewelKS> then move/copy/link it into cron.hourly
2136[17:42:30] *** Joins: juantelez (~juan@replaced-ip)
2137[17:42:32] <nuxil> alright :D
2138[17:42:45] *** Quits: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2139[17:42:46] <FinalX> or use a systemd timer
2140[17:43:02] * greycat throws a clock in FinalX's direction
2141[17:43:29] <petn-randall> Or use rundeck!
2142[17:43:37] <joepublic> I heard that cron of late is an elaborate deception handled behind the scenes by something else.
2143[17:43:56] <SerajewelKS> write a node script using the node-cron npm package and run it as a daemon with supervisord!
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2147[17:44:41] <SerajewelKS> joepublic: not on debian stable yet, but it wouldn't surprise me if systemd hoovers that up too
2148[17:44:43] <FinalX> I wasn't kidding, cron is in the past here; systemd timed service executions are much more controllable
2149[17:44:46] *** Joins: czart (~czart@replaced-ip)
2150[17:44:55] <joepublic> I didn't think you were, of course.
2151[17:45:10] <FinalX> supervised execution, clear logging... namespace / security / capability settings
2152[17:45:24] <petn-randall> cron also doesn't parse the last entry in a crontab if it doesn't contain a newline.
2153[17:45:30] *** Quits: AndrewSAMA (~AndrewSAM@replaced-ip) (Quit: Bye Bye)
2154[17:45:37] * petn-randall waits for greycat's rant.
2155[17:45:41] <FinalX> actually it fails the entire crontab if only one line is incorrect
2156[17:45:54] *** Joins: AndrewSAMA (~AndrewSAM@replaced-ip)
2157[17:45:56] <FinalX> so NO tasks will run if you fail on ONE line
2158[17:46:05] <SerajewelKS> FinalX: cron can already do more or less all of that with properly configured lines
2159[17:46:11] <FinalX> no, it can't
2160[17:46:29] <SerajewelKS> with wrappers, yes it can
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2162[17:46:35] <FinalX> that's not cron...
2163[17:46:39] <FinalX> that's a wrapper
2164[17:46:42] <joepublic> if you're doing all the properly configuring, then you're doing it, and cron isn't.
2165[17:46:42] <SerajewelKS> exactly
2166[17:46:45] <FinalX> exactly
2167[17:46:47] <FinalX> so no, cron can't.
2168[17:46:53] <SerajewelKS> why should the service running things on a schedule need to do all of that?
2169[17:46:59] <SerajewelKS> separation of concerns, dude
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2172[17:47:25] <greycat> petn-randall: "then don't bend it that way"
2173[17:47:28] <SerajewelKS> it's already possible to do all of that stuff, it's just not magically handled by cron, so that makes it bad, apparently?
2174[17:47:33] <FinalX> really not, actually. why should you introduce new software, while you already have everything you need, and maintain more random crap?
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2177[17:47:44] <FinalX> it's not cron that does it, cron can't do it, was the point.
2178[17:47:44] *** Joins: Mad_Hat (~Mad_Hat@replaced-ip)
2179[17:47:50] <SerajewelKS> FinalX: that statement can be read both in favor of and against systemd
2180[17:47:51] <nuxil> did i start some kind of war now ? which is the best scheduler :p
2181[17:47:54] <FinalX> you're extending cron with different software.
2182[17:47:55] <SerajewelKS> to me, systemd is "more random crap"
2183[17:48:00] <FinalX> systemd is part of debian
2184[17:48:01] *** Quits: Descriptioned (~tron@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving.)
2185[17:48:03] <FinalX> so it's not random crap
2186[17:48:13] <FinalX> your wrapper is a newly introduced part of a complex chain
2187[17:48:14] <FinalX> also,
2188[17:48:16] <joepublic> nuxil, depends on whether you need simple (cron) or not simple (systemd)
2189[17:48:22] <FinalX> with systemd timed services you KNOW when your service is running
2190[17:48:34] <FinalX> if a cron line fails to parse, it will NOT be executed and your WRAPPER will NOT run
2191[17:48:35] <nuxil> joepublic, my requirements are simple :)
2192[17:48:50] <SerajewelKS> if a systemd unit has a syntax error it won't load either
2193[17:48:55] <FinalX> with cron you can only tell when a service has run
2194[17:49:00] <SerajewelKS> "when you fuck up your configuration bad shit happens" is not an argument
2195[17:49:13] <FinalX> no, with systemd you immediately know your service hasn't run and since when
2196[17:49:15] <FinalX> with cron you do not
2197[17:49:16] <joepublic> Someday I will have to figure out how to undo all these /ignores
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2199[17:49:50] <FinalX> you state that cron can do $something while it clearly, and admitted by you, can't. I just can't see how you think that's not a stupid argument.
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2201[17:50:08] <SerajewelKS> my point was that it's possible to do with cron
2202[17:50:17] <FinalX> cron can't execute at intervals either, so your wrapper won't either
2203[17:50:28] <FinalX> you can't execute every 10 seconds.
2204[17:50:37] <FinalX> or every 30..
2205[17:51:02] <FinalX> and if your wrapper does that, you're re-implementing something that should've been done by the task scheduler in the first place
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2209[17:51:21] <joepublic> oh. in hexchat window -> ignore list. duh.
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2216[17:54:26] <jelly> I agree vixie cron is hostile, unwieldy crap and SOMETIMES replacing existing components with completely new code is a good idea.
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2220[17:55:17] <jelly> however completely new code will have its own set of glitches, issues and idiosyncrazies and will take 5-10 years to become stable enough for me
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2225[17:56:51] <jelly> old people prefer the devil they know
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2229[17:58:02] <SerajewelKS> i've just seen it happen too many times. we need to reinvent this, the way it does things is dumb! (5 years pass) oh there was a reason they did it that way, i see...
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2232[17:58:35] <nuxil> reinventing the wheel is something the community in linux is good at.
2233[17:58:42] *** Quits: Janyru (5e439b23@replaced-ip) (Client Quit)
2234[17:58:44] <nuxil> i mean really good at it.
2235[17:59:18] <SerajewelKS> then we wind up with ten init systems that all suck in their own way. the people with sysvinit still pretty much have had working systems the whole time.
2236[17:59:19] <FinalX> I've been maintaining servers for almost 25 years now, and SysV has been a big part of that. When systemd came I bitched, moaned, whined and complained just like any other system engineer at work, in here, the mailinglists and other places. But a) Cron has always been very limited by itself and has many drawbacks, and b) I've learned to adapt and go with the flow.
2237[17:59:49] <nuxil> example.. how many DE's are there out there.? why cant these people compine their effort and make a super DE.. like all the Kernel people are focused on one task. make better kernel. not fork 10 tousands versions of it. :p
2238[17:59:49] <FinalX> I use cron and systemd timers and other software all for different things. Each has their own value and merit.
2239[18:00:09] <FinalX> But in any case, cron, with or without wrapper, has many drawbacks.
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2241[18:00:29] <whislock> SerajewelKS: systemd is a colossal improvement over sysvinit. Period.
2242[18:00:34] <whislock> !systemd
2243[18:00:35] <dpkg> systemd is a system and service manager for Linux, compatible with SysV and LSB init scripts. It is a replacement for <sysvinit>. systemd shipped as a technology preview in Debian 7 "Wheezy" and is the default init system in Debian 8 "Jessie". replaced-url
2244[18:00:38] <jhutchins_wk> nuxil: Because diversity is part of the point of open source.
2245[18:00:40] <whislock> !whysystemd
2246[18:00:47] <whislock> !why systemd
2247[18:00:47] <dpkg> a tired argument. Start by reading rra's excellent analysis at replaced-url
2248[18:00:48] <blackflow> I wouldn't say the linux community is better about reinvention of the wheel than any other community.
2249[18:00:49] <whislock> That one.
2250[18:00:51] <nuxil> whislock i dissagree :p
2251[18:00:57] <nuxil> they removed rc.local :p
2252[18:00:58] <jelly> whislock: sure. but it's not good enough and it's not written defensively
2253[18:01:10] <jhutchins_wk> nuxil: You can still create it.
2254[18:01:15] <jelly> nuxil: rc.local works for me.
2255[18:01:17] <nuxil> i have :D
2256[18:01:21] <SerajewelKS> whislock: i agree with the concept. the implentation has been pretty spectacularly mediocre.
2257[18:01:22] <whislock> jelly: I won't argue that.
2258[18:01:24] <FinalX> If you want more precise execution, cron can't help you. Other schedulers can. And systemd is a part of Debian, which has many security options, so why not use that instead of re-inventing the wheel (I've done that many times, and trust me, you grow very tired and weary of it).
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2260[18:01:43] <whislock> SerajewelKS: And yet that mediocrity has already delivered huge benefits over what came before.
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2262[18:02:15] <jelly> FinalX: right. And if someone reimplements it, we'll again have alternatives to pick from.
2263[18:02:16] <FinalX> This shouldn't be a discussion about "systemd or not", it's "cron vs alternatives", or in this case "a built-in alternative".
2264[18:02:16] <whislock> Waaaaah change waaaaaah.
2265[18:02:31] <SerajewelKS> yep, same as pulseaudio made desktop audio better by hilariously making basic shit not work, but hey, at least you can move audio streams between sinks in realtime!
2266[18:02:57] <jelly> SerajewelKS: well it's a-ok now, now that 10 years have passed.
2267[18:03:07] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: its not like hotplug worked well before pulseaudio.
2268[18:03:08] <SerajewelKS> jelly: i still fight it on a regular basis
2269[18:03:16] <nuxil> pulseaudio has been a nightmare for me
2270[18:03:28] <SerajewelKS> i didn't need hotplug, i needed my one hardware sound card to consistently work
2271[18:03:29] <FinalX> jelly: Exactly :) For now, we're moving away from cron and more to systemd services/timers, because that's something we'll always have installed on Debian-boxes now anyway. And Ubuntu that we also run..
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2273[18:03:58] <SerajewelKS> jelly: the only thing that 100% works to fix pulse on my system is have jackd run on alsa, then have pulse exclusively have jack sinks.
2274[18:04:11] <FinalX> With the systemd timers you have more fine-grained control. Also no overlapping runs so you don't need to really worry about locking that much, only start an interval after the last one ran, etc. Random intervals between X and Y.. etc.
2275[18:04:16] <oiaohm> Before pulseaudio I use to run into the artsd vs esound what was a main pain as well.
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2277[18:04:28] <FinalX> With cron, you really can only execute on a per-minute basis and only on set times without the help of other tools..
2278[18:04:46] <oiaohm> One of the things that came out of pulseaudio was mix and match gnome and kde applications and not have a sound server cat fight.
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2280[18:04:54] <nuxil> precition of 1 min is good enuf in most cases
2281[18:05:00] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: i mean we kind of got that with alsa dmix
2282[18:05:02] <FinalX> But not all.
2283[18:05:19] <__m4ch1n3__> took me weeks to realize flat volumes is an feature and cn be commented out in config and not a nasty bug in pulseaudio
2284[18:05:27] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: there were gnome and kde applications taht would not run without either artd or esound.
2285[18:05:28] <FinalX> And you can never be 100% certain of when your task is going to finish, either.
2286[18:05:33] <FinalX> So the next task can overlap.
2287[18:05:44] <jelly> __m4ch1n3__: that's one of "default" settings that really ought to be fixed in distro
2288[18:05:44] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: so dmix did not solve problem.
2289[18:05:45] <FinalX> Unless you add more code yourself.
2290[18:05:45] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: yes i know, but with alsa dmix you could run both sound servers at once without much trouble
2291[18:05:50] <whislock> FinalX: And then you get to kludge up your own locking solution...
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2293[18:05:53] <SerajewelKS> (at least that is what i recall)
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2296[18:06:17] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: no artds and esound different versions would go direct to alsa so by passing dmix and locking the hardware.
2297[18:06:38] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: i'm pretty sure that i got them to use the dmix slave at one point
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2299[18:06:52] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: when it worked.
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2301[18:07:04] <FinalX> We get audited, it's nice to not have to dig through syslog to see and pray if a task got executed by cron, or that your logs rotated away in which it said that you had a typo on line 667 which makes the other 666 jobs also not run.
2302[18:07:13] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: depending on the version of esound/artd depend if that setting dmix worked or not.
2303[18:07:14] <pclover> So need an opinion here. Any suggestions on how to convert a mbr booting install to a uefi one?
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2305[18:07:20] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: yep. still, alsa dmix was the solution in most cases. pulse was a huge step back at first and it still doesn't work right on any system i've used.
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2307[18:07:30] <pclover> unsure if it covers it in a wiki how to setup the efi partition etc
2308[18:07:46] <SerajewelKS> pclover: you need to repartition to add an EFI system partition, for one
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2311[18:07:59] <pclover> yeah i know i'll have to do that
2312[18:08:01] <jelly> pclover: "not easily", how much free space do you have on the boot disk?
2313[18:08:21] <petn-randall> pclover: It's easier to do a clean reinstall.
2314[18:08:23] <SerajewelKS> pclover: if you're using GPT right now and have a BIOS boot partition, and don't want to retain BIOS boot capability, you can reuse that partition for the ESP if it's large enough.
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2318[18:09:15] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: really the two good thing to come out of pulseaudio was artds and esound disappearing and more testing and repairs on alsa drivers..
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2320[18:09:20] <jelly> pclover: on the other hand, it might be really easy if you have a second disk or small internal SD or USB to boot from
2321[18:09:21] <pclover> hum
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2323[18:09:37] <bolt> Is there a stretch installer CD with a newer kernel on it? Like, stretch-n-half? The stretch installer doesn't find the network card on the new NUC in the office, a NUC8i5BEK2. The buster installer does.
2324[18:09:48] <pclover> jelly, i can move the install to a blank disk and fully set it up on that and
2325[18:09:58] <pclover> just like rsync the system files over or something
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2327[18:10:11] <bolt> It's supposed to use the e1000e driver, which is in stretch, but I guess it isn't recent enough.
2328[18:10:14] <jelly> sure, that's the "not easily" workflow
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2330[18:10:29] <SerajewelKS> pclover: do you have a swap partition?
2331[18:10:39] <SerajewelKS> pclover: you can steal a bit of space from that to make the ESP :)
2332[18:11:07] <pclover> reading into wiki to see what i can find
2333[18:11:40] <greycat> There has only ever been one "and-a-half" release, which was etch-and-a-half.
2334[18:11:43] <jelly> pclover: refornat new disk with gpt, a partition for ESP, clone other filesystems, chroot, install grub-efi and efibootmgr, switch firmware over to uefi?
2335[18:11:44] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: there is a plan in the works for pipewire to replace pulseaudio and jackaudio. This hopefully will deal with some of pulseaudio worst issues taken from esound and artsd of lacking a proper low latancy.
2336[18:12:08] <pclover> jelly, that sounds like not a bad idea
2337[18:12:11] <karlpinc> greycat: There used to be kmuto (spelling?)
2338[18:12:12] <greycat> With buster's freeze process already underway, I would imagine there won't be a stretch-and-a-half either. Just buster.
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2340[18:12:17] <greycat> karlpinc: that's separate
2341[18:12:40] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: oh boy, another fucking sound server. allow me to celebrate by rubbing this sandpaper on my ass.
2342[18:12:41] <jelly> pclover: I do something like that every time I migrate my home and work systems to new hardware.
2343[18:12:45] <karlpinc> greycat: But would have solved his problem.
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2345[18:13:00] <jelly> pclover: my home Debian was installed in 2001 I think
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2347[18:13:14] <pclover> that's a long time to maintain an install!
2348[18:13:35] <karlpinc> pclover: It just keeps upgrading, and works so...
2349[18:13:37] <jelly> it's still i386.
2350[18:13:44] <jelly> (mostly)
2351[18:13:52] <greycat> my computers don't last that long, cheap consumer crap...
2352[18:13:56] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: replaced-url
2353[18:14:01] <jelly> pclover: there's no need to reinstall Debian ever ;-)
2354[18:14:32] <jelly> greycat: 5-6 hardware platforms, about as many releases, still the same broom
2355[18:14:38] <pclover> i've been in the notation that you should reinstall for major version upgrades
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2357[18:14:41] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: oh god
2358[18:14:42] <pclover> tho minor is something very different
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2360[18:14:45] <jelly> pclover: fuck no
2361[18:14:56] <jelly> Debian supports in-place release upgrades.
2362[18:15:05] <jelly> they work.
2363[18:15:10] <pclover> i haven't tested it but it's scared me lol
2364[18:15:21] <pclover> thinking i'll have a very broken package manager
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2366[18:15:39] <jelly> sure newer KDE might choke on old files and require a fresh profile sometimes
2367[18:15:53] <petn-randall> pclover: Given that's it's officially supported and extensively tested, it usually works with no little issues.
2368[18:16:13] <pclover> maybe i'll it for Debian 10
2369[18:16:15] <pclover> whenever that is around
2370[18:16:18] <jelly> pclover: there's nothing in package manager on debian that's can't be fixed. Worst comes to happen, you have backups right?
2371[18:16:26] <pclover> ^ that yes
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2374[18:17:08] <jelly> but honestly I think I had to restore /var/lib/dpkg/status only once during that time, and that's because of lying SSD firmware
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2376[18:17:36] <jelly> "I've written this to disk, honest!" *power goes off*
2377[18:17:39] <pclover> curious what the command is to install grub2 using efi
2378[18:17:50] <jelly> it's the same
2379[18:18:05] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: If pipewire works it should properly solve audio to video sync issues as well as removing need for pulseaudio and jackaudio.
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2381[18:18:19] <pclover> jelly, you don't need to pass it any special flags?
2382[18:18:26] <jelly> you need the right grub-* package installed
2383[18:18:52] <jelly> pclover: I don't remember the details
2384[18:18:53] <karlpinc> pclover: The important thing on major upgrades is to follow the instructions in the release notes. "just doing it" can cause problems, although the release notes can help recover when things go wrong.
2385[18:19:17] <pclover> jelly, that should be covered in the wiki hopefully
2386[18:19:35] <jelly> sometimes arch wiki is better than debian's
2387[18:19:35] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: yes and then we'll have a 20 year period where nothing works because no two pieces of software support the same servers.
2388[18:19:48] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: e.g. is ardour going to support it? when?
2389[18:20:17] *** Quits: hspcd (~hspcd@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2390[18:20:20] <pclover> so i guess i'll have to remove the grub-pc and grub-pc-bin files and install grub-efi
2391[18:20:27] <pclover> eer packages
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2393[18:20:54] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: that the thing about pipewire it supporting gstreamer, pulse and jackaudio APIs.
2394[18:21:17] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: so no code modifications and ardour will support it.
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2396[18:22:03] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: in theory
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2411[18:25:24] <Deihmos> anyone know what this means in fstab x-gvfs-show
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2413[18:25:32] <Deihmos> cannot find an explanation
2414[18:25:56] *** Joins: pity (~pity@replaced-ip)
2415[18:26:25] <jelly> gvfs is a Gnome thing.
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2419[18:27:03] <jelly> might have to do something with Gnome's file manager
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2424[18:29:08] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: replaced-url
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2427[18:29:43] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: having seen this story unfold multiple times, i will believe it when i see it. i'm not against rewrites and noble goals.
2428[18:30:02] *** Quits: Brigo (~Brigo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2429[18:30:34] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: i'm against yet another standard, yet another set of problems, and distro maintainers treating users as cutting edge software testers which is exactly what we gripe at MS and apple about.
2430[18:30:56] *** Quits: tyranny12 (~blarg@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2431[18:31:51] <jelly> SerajewelKS: sometimes you learn who you can trust when they set to rewrite a thing
2432[18:32:09] <FinalX> doesn't mean the old standard was still ok in a modern world, and change isn't inheritly bad. it's true enough that that rewrite or new standard isn't good either, but it doesn't change what the old thing is.
2433[18:32:11] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: really like it or not you don't have that much of a choice bar to-do that to end users. No developer group can have enough resoruces to test everything.
2434[18:32:47] <jelly> SerajewelKS: which is why I'm hopeful about nosh even if I haven't look at it at all yet
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2436[18:33:40] <jelly> FinalX: gratuitous NIH instead of using good existing components gets on my nerves tho
2437[18:33:52] <oiaohm> The pipewire lead takes quality contol a lot more serousally than the esound, artsd and pulseaudio leads did. So I do think we might be good thing.
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2441[18:34:26] <oiaohm> jelly: problem comes defining good.
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2445[18:34:51] <FinalX> jelly: elikewise
2446[18:34:53] <FinalX> -e
2447[18:34:55] <SerajewelKS> jelly: after pulse, poettering made it onto my naughty list. then i saw him starting systemd and i had a pretty visceral reaction.
2448[18:35:28] <FinalX> I actually meant to type "might not be good either", not "isn't good either", though.
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2450[18:35:42] <SerajewelKS> broke the audio stack, what's next? how about breaking the whole system?
2451[18:35:43] <oiaohm> I see systemd as something that will have to be replaced in future. But someone had to attempt something different to broken posix api locked init systems.
2452[18:36:10] <oiaohm> The one thing poettering has is the balls to try those things.
2453[18:36:21] <jelly> SerajewelKS: but hey, pulse got good after he left, so systemd might stop with ABI breakage and reinventing stuff at some point...!
2454[18:36:39] <SerajewelKS> jelly: indeed. in the meantime i have systems i maintain... :)
2455[18:36:41] <Spec> jelly: lol
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2457[18:36:43] <jhutchins_wk> I haven't seen any actual Debian support traffic in this channel in days.
2458[18:36:48] <Spec> and one day we can dream of docker and systemd working together
2459[18:37:00] *** Quits: nevada387592 (~anon@replaced-ip) (Quit: Leaving)
2460[18:37:03] <jelly> docker can DIAF, too :-)
2461[18:37:17] <oiaohm> Spec: that required docker to migrate to cgroupv2 and systemd to migrate to cgroupv2.
2462[18:37:17] <Spec> two big egos fighting it out is sorta fun to watch tho
2463[18:37:20] <FinalX> jhutchins_wk: there has been, actually :)
2464[18:37:39] <oiaohm> docker is waiting on freezer subsystem in cgroupv2
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2467[18:38:10] <oiaohm> cgroupv1 with two items attempting to do management is just pure disaster waiting to happen.
2468[18:38:15] <Spec> oiaohm: does that fix the issues with the watchdog system in systemd?
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2470[18:38:40] <jelly> SerajewelKS: yes, in the meantime, I can pick and choose which subsystems of Debian's default init to ignore completely or disable
2471[18:38:51] <Deihmos> So I can just remove it for Debian
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2473[18:39:17] <oiaohm> Spec: depends on what watchdog issue you are talking about. The one where the watchdog can get confused about groups of services because docker has been messing with things yes.
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2476[18:41:08] <jelly> and I can buy decent hardening for Linux kernel separately
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2480[18:43:08] <blackflow> I'd like to ask how do you know it's decent, other than take grsec's word for it, but I don't wanna open that can of discussional worms with the "but independent audit!" can opener.
2481[18:43:12] <oiaohm> jelly: define decent. Do you mean like grsecurity that might end up breaking the drivers you need.
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2485[18:44:32] <blackflow> meanwhile the Mouth of Grsec Sauron is fuming on twatter how they're safe from whatever vuln is mentioned in the press about mainline.
2486[18:45:04] <jelly> oiaohm: I want it to break drivers, then I report that back and they fix things.
2487[18:45:14] <blackflow> if I were their legal department I'd tell them to stop. because once your grsec kernel is compromised and it will be, if it's not already, you'll have hard time definding your case with THAT twatter mouth.
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2489[18:45:34] <blackflow> *defending
2490[18:45:39] <jelly> blackflow: they're usually not wrong saying those things
2491[18:46:10] <blackflow> maybe, maybe not.
2492[18:46:15] <oiaohm> jelly: Kernel Self Protection Project that is free does that one.
2493[18:46:32] <jelly> oiaohm: I said decent.
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2495[18:46:54] <oiaohm> jelly: Linus forbids kernel self protection project or anyone going mainline deciding to use kernel panic because something just appears to have gone slightly security wrong.
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2497[18:47:20] <oiaohm> jelly: it the define of decent.
2498[18:47:24] <jelly> oiaohm: Linus is an idiot that does not understand there are users with different priorities.
2499[18:47:50] <Deihmos> my usb drive have these boot flags auto nosuid,nodev,nofail,x-gvfs-show 0 0
2500[18:47:54] <Deihmos> is that recommended/
2501[18:47:58] <oiaohm> jelly: no in fact going straight to kernel panic ends up not logging the issue so it cannot be simplly located and fixed.
2502[18:48:14] <oiaohm> jelly: in this case Linus is right.
2503[18:48:44] <jelly> oiaohm: no, he's not, context for those intentional BUG_ON is important.
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2505[18:48:52] <blackflow> isn't the panic preceeded by a trace?
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2509[18:49:50] <jelly> "kernel was compromised, just halt right now before more data goes out"
2510[18:49:55] <oiaohm> blackflow: a critical like a BUG_ON will skip trace.
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2512[18:50:19] <jelly> it's not horribly hard to figure out why a user might _want_ that
2513[18:50:28] <oiaohm> blackflow: you need to have a debugger connected to collect those.
2514[18:50:31] <blackflow> I remember grsec erring on the side of panicking whenever it encountered something fishy. Had hard time dealing with that in prod -- yes, which only exposed broken programs/use cases, but hey, I'm not gonna fight those windmills (by trying to change the programs)
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2517[18:51:05] <oiaohm> jelly: there are other ways of stopping data going out while not doing a BUG_ON and going straight into kernel panic.
2518[18:51:41] <oiaohm> jelly: they do require more coding consideration.
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2521[18:52:17] <jelly> oiaohm: half the point of grsec is proactive measures against coding errors
2522[18:52:35] <jelly> saying "you need to code better" misses the ballpark
2523[18:52:49] * jelly will stop commenting on this now
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2525[18:53:30] <oiaohm> Major part of Kernel Self Protection Project is the same thing expect adding that to your general checkpatch.
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2533[18:54:48] <oiaohm> jelly: procative actions against coding errors is one thing. But that you are sanely fixing those the driver maintainers are highly useful.
2534[18:54:52] <blackflow> jelly: true but raises questions of usefulness, if your server is panicking once a day, and with (in)ability to fix the cause upstream.
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2538[18:55:55] <blackflow> meanwhile, I'd love to see TPE in mainline. I think there even were some patches recently to get that in
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2572[19:09:52] <oiaohm> jelly: blackmaji replaced-url
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2575[19:10:39] <oiaohm> There is two choices attempt to software patch over that bad code. Or what kernel self protection is doing get rid of that bad code once and for all.
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2632[19:36:16] <edmont> hi
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2635[19:37:46] <edmont> I have my PC connected to a projector and whenever I shoot the projector down my system reboots, how to avoid that?
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2637[19:40:01] <rwp> edmont, That should not happen. What are you doing when you shut down the projector?
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2641[19:40:51] <rwp> I just disconnect the cord.
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2658[19:50:41] <pclover> jelly, hum if your still around how do i create the grub.cfg for efi?
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2660[19:51:00] <jelly> pclover: the same way, update-grub ?
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2662[19:51:54] <pclover> oh
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2682[20:06:26] <uio> Hi, I think my second fan on my Thinkpad X61 might be dead because in psensor it is always at 0 and then other fan near always runs. How might I go about testing this?
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2684[20:09:01] <pclover> hum well this is weird update-grub doesn't seem to want to create a config file
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2699[20:18:39] <pclover> hum so i tired to set it up and i have something that kind of works but it created a system setup entry that doesn't work
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2703[20:20:36] <jhutchins_wk> pclover: How did you get here? How did you install this system that grub wasn't installed properly?
2704[20:20:56] <pclover> trying to move a existing system to efi boot on a new disk
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2708[20:23:16] <jhutchins_wk> Let's see what dpkg says...
2709[20:23:20] <jhutchins_wk> !fixgrub
2710[20:23:21] <dpkg> To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2), mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ; mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ; mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target), run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub && grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
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2717[20:25:13] <pclover> pretty sure i did exactly that but will again
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2720[20:25:46] <uio> How can I tell if my machine has WWAN?
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2724[20:27:33] <rwp> uio, I think the X61 only has one fan. My X60 only has one fan. The other sensor is probably misconfigured and actually not there at all.
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2726[20:27:57] <Tenkawa> greetings all
2727[20:28:01] <jelly> uio: existence of unusual /dev/tty* devices, eg. /dev/ttyUSB* might be a clue
2728[20:28:13] <jelly> uio: does it have a sim card slot?
2729[20:29:00] <jelly> uio: might want to ask in ##ibmthinkpad
2730[20:29:25] <jelly> they sometimes know a thing or two about thinkpads
2731[20:29:29] * Tenkawa learned a lesson this morning (mind you one he already knew in theory but not in practice). LLVM takes a ton of memory to compile
2732[20:30:00] <uio> Jelly I don't think so, but the user manual : pg 83 replaced-url
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2735[20:30:27] <uio> jelly, I mean, I don't think it has SIm, but it may or may not have WWAN...
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2754[20:48:32] <jhutchins_wk> uio: I would expect it to show up in lspci
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2756[20:48:54] <jhutchins_wk> uio: I would also expect some sort of switch and/or indicator light.
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2762[20:50:48] <uio> jhutchins_wk, Thanks! I'm on ibmthinkpad and they have confirmed that there is no WWAN... now I'm trying to see if there is a fan...
2763[20:50:53] <uio> a sceond fan...
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2766[20:52:47] <jhutchins_wk> Screwdrivers!
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2771[20:56:08] <pclover> jhutchins_wk, so i did that and it creates a system setup entry that fails to work.
2772[20:56:39] <pclover> unsure why it's labled system setup and it doesn't point to any root fs or anything that can actually boot the system
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2774[20:57:27] <jhutchins_wk> Well, I never got either of the UEFI systems I installed to boot correctly, so I'm not much help.
2775[20:57:30] <jhutchins_wk> !uefi
2776[20:57:30] <dpkg> Unified Extensible Firmware Interface (UEFI) is a firmware interface specification, intended to replace the <BIOS> firmware interface. Debian 7 "Wheezy" and later releases support installation in (U)EFI mode on 64-bit PC systems (amd64), <secure boot> is currently not supported. replaced-url
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2778[20:57:43] <jhutchins_wk> The wiki might have something.
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2781[20:58:40] <jhutchins_wk> pclover: Is it possible that the version of grub from your old install isn't EFI compatible?
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2783[20:58:51] <pclover> i reinstalled it
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2785[20:59:16] <pclover> right now it boots but right now it seems the failre is update-grub for some reason
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2787[20:59:36] <themegauser> anyone here?
2788[20:59:38] <jhutchins_wk> pclover: I believe there are different packages, one of which doesn't do EFI.
2789[20:59:50] <themegauser> can somebody help me troubleshoot Xen? the #xen channel is dead
2790[21:00:00] <jhutchins_wk> themegauser: Usually a couple thousand people here.
2791[21:00:08] <themegauser> ok well i installed debian 9
2792[21:00:16] <themegauser> xen doesn't seem to boot up properly
2793[21:00:21] <themegauser> it just reboots after boot up
2794[21:00:52] <pclover> menuentry 'System setup' $menuentry_id_option 'uefi-firmware' {
2795[21:00:52] <pclover> fwsetup
2796[21:00:53] <pclover>
2797[21:01:03] <pclover> is the only thing it creates that would actually boot the system
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2805[21:05:40] <tobiasBora> Hello,
2806[21:07:01] <tobiasBora> Any people here knowing how XKB is working? I'd like to make sure that when I press Shift+KP2 (numpad 2) with NumLock active, it goes down, like if I pressed the Down arrow
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2809[21:07:42] <uio> Is a constant 3400rpm on the fan a problem?
2810[21:07:50] <rwp> pclover, grub-pc is legacy bios. grub-efi-amd64 is needed or efi systmes.
2811[21:08:06] <pclover> yeah i have that installed
2812[21:09:16] <tobiasBora> So I tried to create a new type FOUR_LEVEL_MIXED_KEYPAP_CUST (based on FOUR_LEVEL_MIXED_KEYPAD), and I added there "map[Shift+NumLock]= Level1; preserve[Shift+NumLock]= None;", and same thing with Control in place of Shift. Unfortunately, in LibreOffice Calc, when I press Ctrl/Shift + KP2, it still goes down, but it also "selects" the cells, like if I pressed Shift + Down
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2815[21:09:42] <tobiasBora> (Of course I updated the type in key <KP2> { .... }
2816[21:09:57] <tobiasBora> You can find here the full paste of my file: replaced-url
2817[21:10:11] <tobiasBora> (and here is a more detailed list of what I exactly changed)
2818[21:10:13] <tobiasBora> replaced-url
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2821[21:10:38] <tobiasBora> Let me know if you know how to "remove" this Shift from the KP2...
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2823[21:11:16] <tobiasBora> NB: and when I do Ctrl+KP2... Nothing happend.
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2825[21:12:03] <ebol4> when I plug in a USB wifi dongle (comes up as wlan0), it starts DOWN, and I have to manually set the interface to UP to do anything with it
2826[21:12:13] <ebol4> can I make it so it automatically starts as UP when I plug it in?
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2828[21:12:37] <SerajewelKS> ebol4: put it in /etc/network/interfaces with allow-hotplug, presumably
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2833[21:15:58] <ebol4> SerajewelKS: is there a way to extend that for an arbitrary number of wlan interfaces?
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2835[21:16:06] <ebol4> like if I have wlan1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
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2841[21:18:23] <uio> Normal fan speeds?
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2846[21:20:23] <ksk> uio: not a debian questions? some context? If I had to guess: everything is fine.
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2849[21:20:57] <uio> Is a constant 3400rpm on the fan a problem?
2850[21:21:10] *** Joins: izh_ (~denis@replaced-ip)
2851[21:21:24] <ksk> I can only repeat what I just said :>
2852[21:21:27] <uio> ksk, I've been trying to find reference values online...
2853[21:21:44] <uio> ksk, Okay. Cool.
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2856[21:22:11] <ksk> 3400rpm sounds reasonable for some fans, yes. the smaller the higher they turn most often.
2857[21:22:18] *** Joins: hcal4 (~hcal4@replaced-ip)
2858[21:22:39] <uio> ksk, Okay, thanks. BTW, what is a 'debian question' for you?
2859[21:23:11] <ksk> also, these pins fans are connected to on a computer are kind of normalized/standardized, so its unlikely something will break if you put on a "normal pc fan"
2860[21:23:13] <uio> ksk, Yeah it's small and old.
2861[21:23:29] <uio> ksk, a Thinkpad X61.
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2863[21:23:43] <uio> ksk, Okay. I see.
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2866[21:24:13] <ksk> uio: A question that arises during (your) use of debian linux. You have more a genral hardware question, not related to debian.
2867[21:24:22] <Tenkawa> i dont think that model has a variable speed controller either
2868[21:24:34] <Tenkawa> like my model does
2869[21:24:51] <Tenkawa> I can hear the rpm shift in mine
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2874[21:26:26] <uio> Tenkawa, Sometimes it increases, but usually stays at 3400
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2876[21:27:07] <Tenkawa> yeah thats not surprising
2877[21:27:14] <uio> ksk, Hmmm, I see the softward / hardware line as a bit more flexible seeing as things like drivers and so on affect our experience a lot.
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2879[21:27:33] <uio> Tenkawa, Okay, thanks for the input :)
2880[21:27:37] <SerajewelKS> ebol4: not to my knowledge. usually you don't need 5 wlan interfaces...?
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2882[21:28:00] <uio> ksk, 'Pure' software doesn't exist, just as the human mind needs a body...
2883[21:28:02] <SerajewelKS> ebol4: i mean you could write a script that monitors udev events looking for wlan interfaces.
2884[21:28:41] <Tenkawa> uio: one important thing is to keep the entry/exit clean
2885[21:28:51] <SerajewelKS> ebol4: what is your actual goal?
2886[21:28:53] <pclover> jhutchins_wk, wow i figured it out... Somehow none of my boot files copied over. No WONDER update-grub was creating no entires to actually boot the system.
2887[21:28:58] <Tenkawa> and if you do have access to the fan clean it
2888[21:28:59] <uio> Tenkawa, The vent?
2889[21:29:03] <Tenkawa> yes
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2891[21:29:08] <SerajewelKS> ebol4: because surely it's not "plug 5 wlan adapters in at once and have them come up automatically"
2892[21:29:11] <uio> Tenkawa, I opened it up, no dust :)
2893[21:29:26] <Tenkawa> make sure it spins nicely
2894[21:29:30] <uio> Tenkawa, I looks like the machine was in storage for a decade!
2895[21:29:36] <uio> Tenkawa, That has been the concern...
2896[21:29:53] <uio> Tenkawa, I oiled it, but I notice a reving, or a pulsing of sorts.
2897[21:30:12] <uio> Tenkawa, As if it spins and then has to catch up, so it accelerates a bit.
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2899[21:30:19] <Tenkawa> you shouldnt use oil
2900[21:30:24] <uio> Tenkawa, ??
2901[21:30:30] <uio> Tenkawa, What should one use?
2902[21:30:36] <Tenkawa> theres something specific for bearings
2903[21:30:40] <uio> Tenkawa, Oh I greased it up ;)
2904[21:30:45] <uio> Tenkawa, Oops.
2905[21:30:50] <ebol4> SerajewelKS: I regularly unplug and plug in additional wlan adapters for testing purposes. When I used a raspberry pi running raspbian for this, the wlan adapters came up automatically when they were plugged in. i switched to plain debian on an x86 board and now the wlan adapters start DOWN, and i have to manually set them each to UP before i try to use them
2906[21:30:54] <Tenkawa> (cant think of it atm)
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2908[21:31:01] <uio> Tenkawa, I put bicycle chain oil on on the fan!
2909[21:31:15] <uio> Tenkawa, On the axle.
2910[21:31:16] <Tenkawa> thinking...
2911[21:31:17] <uio> Did wonders.
2912[21:31:22] <SerajewelKS> ebol4: isn't this something the GUI network manager should be handling?
2913[21:31:25] <ebol4> SerajewelKS: now that i think about it, it was probably network-manager
2914[21:31:26] <ebol4> yep
2915[21:31:41] <ebol4> PROBLEM SOLVED good work everyone
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2917[21:31:45] <SerajewelKS> ebol4: auto-configuring wlan doesn't make much sense unless they all connect to the same SSID
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2921[21:32:12] <uio> ebol4, !!!¡¡¡
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2923[21:32:45] <ebol4> i don't need them autoconfigured or anything, I just need them to be UP so I can use them
2924[21:32:53] <ebol4> "iw" complains if the interface is set to down
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2935[21:34:54] <Tenkawa> uio: now I remember.. sewing machine oil and such works for short amount of times but if its needed already the fan itself probably should be switched out
2936[21:34:56] <pclover> jelly, so if you ever curious I did get my idea working and converted a system form non efi to efi boot. :)
2937[21:35:18] <pclover> tho i spent an hour trying to figure out why update-grub was not creating boot entries. truns out none of the boot filed copied over...
2938[21:35:21] <pclover> files
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2940[21:35:41] <uio> Tenkawa, Okay, thanks. I have a new fan and will probs replace it soon, but for now the temps seem fine.
2941[21:35:55] <Tenkawa> uio: cool. good luck
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2944[21:36:33] <Tenkawa> pclover: *shudder* efi
2945[21:36:39] <Tenkawa> hehehn
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2947[21:36:44] <pclover> get use to it
2948[21:36:47] <pclover> MBR is going out
2949[21:36:48] <Tenkawa> i know
2950[21:37:05] <Tenkawa> believe me I've got 3 boxes sitting right here I had to switch to it
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2952[21:37:42] <Tenkawa> doesnt mean I have to like it
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2973[21:54:07] <amsaal> hi
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2997[22:09:36] <wyre> what do you think about this java error handling stdin? replaced-url
2998[22:09:44] <wyre> how could I traceback it?
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3012[22:14:56] <blackflow> wyre: no luck with #java? :)
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3016[22:15:17] <wyre> blackflow, nope, it is a dev channel
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3018[22:15:21] <wyre> not tech support
3019[22:15:29] <blackflow> precisely, they could explain that trace perhaps
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3048[22:39:50] <SerajewelKS> wyre: shot in the dark time. "resource temporarily unavailable" is the stringified form of at least one error number, including EAGAIN. which makes me think that stdin was set to do non-blocking IO, but the JRE's FileInputStream and/or BufferedInputStream doesn't know what to do with non-blocking IO.
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3050[22:40:25] <SerajewelKS> org.bukkit.craftbukkit.libs.jline.internal.NonBlockingInputStream in particular makes this scenario seem likely. if that stream class expects EAGAIN then it should be catching that exception in read().
3051[22:40:29] <wyre> SerajewelKS, well, then what could I do?
3052[22:40:38] <foul_owl> Is it not recommended to use the nvidia driver from nvidia's site? If so, why is that not recommended?
3053[22:40:46] <SerajewelKS> wyre: call a bug on org.bukkit.craftbukkit.libs.jline.internal.NonBlockingInputStream not catching EAGAIN properly
3054[22:41:01] <wyre> SerajewelKS, but do you think this is a bug?
3055[22:41:18] <SerajewelKS> wyre: based solely on the information i have, it warrants a bug report
3056[22:41:22] <SerajewelKS> they can decide if it's really a bug
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3058[22:41:49] <SerajewelKS> google found a thread of people discussing the same trace from a different minecraft plugin. they blamed the kernel, with zero evidence.
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3063[22:42:36] <greycat> !blame linux
3064[22:42:36] * dpkg blames PhilSliderS and linux for the end of the Internet as we know it
3065[22:42:39] <wyre> SerajewelKS, I've been talking with Spigot devs and they think is not a bug
3066[22:42:52] <SerajewelKS> if you're doing non-blocking IO then you have to handle EAGAIN, it's literally the mechanism by which O_NONBLOCK tells you "i don't have anything right now"
3067[22:42:57] <wyre> they think it could be related with this machine
3068[22:43:21] <SerajewelKS> wyre: the stack trace unfortunately does not include the actual errno (which might NOT be EAGAIN)
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3070[22:43:50] <wyre> SerajewelKS, how could I force to include the errno?
3071[22:44:03] <wyre> in the stack trace, I mean
3072[22:44:05] <SerajewelKS> i'm not sure. the exception is coming from the JRE.
3073[22:44:18] <SerajewelKS> but nothing is catching it (org.bukkit.craftbukkit.libs.jline.internal.NonBlockingInputStream.read presumably should be catching it)
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3075[22:44:54] <wyre> the point is Spigot devs cannot reproduce the issue
3076[22:45:10] <wyre> so they don't think the issue comes from the code itself
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3078[22:46:00] <SerajewelKS> well the IO error is not coming from the code
3079[22:46:30] <SerajewelKS> but it _looks_ like (as someone who doesn't know this code and has a single stack trace to go off of) that something should be handling EAGAIN properly
3080[22:46:38] <SerajewelKS> if it even is EAGAIN
3081[22:46:47] <SerajewelKS> but this is between you and the devs
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3084[22:47:27] <SerajewelKS> the "can't reproduce" part of their response is correct. the "they don't think the issue comes from the code itself" part is a bit optimistic on their part.
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3088[22:48:30] <SerajewelKS> strace could tell you the errno
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3092[22:50:22] <wyre> strace?
3093[22:50:30] <wyre> how can I use that?
3094[22:50:31] <SerajewelKS> man strace
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3097[22:51:25] <wyre> SerajewelKS, but must be run the java over strace?
3098[22:51:30] <wyre> or how does it work?
3099[22:51:31] <sobrito> If i develop a application (in c or php) and install on Debian (GPL license) and distribuite this solution (my app + debian) in a appliance (both installed in a hardware) and sell this appliance (harware + debian + my app). The my app is necessarily a app GPL and i need provide the source code to my client or i can keep my app proprietary and not provide the source code from my app?
3100[22:51:31] <sobrito> In this environment no provide the source code is a violation from GPL?
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3103[22:51:55] <SerajewelKS> wyre: you run java via strace and strace logs out every system call that is made (you probably want to tell strace to save the output in a file)
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3106[22:52:54] <sammm> hey all, I have been using equivs-build to create an empty package to manage dependancies for a client, they are wanting some preinst / postinst scripts included and was wondeirng what hte best tool for the job was as equivs (as far as I know) doesn't let me easily do this
3107[22:52:58] <sammm> any help is appreciated, thanks
3108[22:53:06] <wyre> but I need so many parameters when running mc server via java
3109[22:53:35] <SerajewelKS> sobrito: "Debian (GPL license)" <-- debian is not released under a single license
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3111[22:54:07] <SerajewelKS> wyre: so make a script
3112[22:54:17] <SerajewelKS> wyre: have your script "exec" java. then strace your script.
3113[22:57:18] <wyre> SerajewelKS, replaced-url
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3115[22:57:30] <wyre> that's the firs stage, when java throws the error
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3119[22:59:12] <mrquincy> I am greatly disturbed by the trend of removing pc speaker (pcspkr) functionality in Ubuntu and Debian. Can I get an amen?
3120[22:59:16] <wyre> SerajewelKS, "access("/etc/ld.so.nohwcap", F_OK) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory)"
3121[22:59:19] <wyre> what? xdd
3122[22:59:40] <greycat> It is completely normal for programs to attempt to open files that are not there.
3123[22:59:51] <mrquincy> What I mean is...in a sane world...you type "beep" and you get one.
3124[22:59:52] <SerajewelKS> wyre: you need to give strace the -f flag as well, java is creating tons of threads and the exception is happening on one of those
3125[22:59:52] <sammm> it means it tried and failed to open a file
3126[22:59:55] <greycat> The kernel sends ENOENT, the program sees this and moves on.
3127[23:00:22] <Tenkawa> someone fill me in on the quick background.. whats his issue?
3128[23:00:33] *** Parts: notrealg (~im@replaced-ip) ()
3129[23:00:38] <Tenkawa> I'm fairly decent at tracing java
3130[23:00:39] <sammm> greycat: oh hey it's you! just would like to say thanks for your bash wiki, literally got a job because of it
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3132[23:01:12] <SerajewelKS> Tenkawa: io exception in his minecraft server, appears to be EAGAIN on a quick glance, and nothing is catching it. we're trying to verify that EAGAIN is the error.
3133[23:01:32] <SerajewelKS> Tenkawa: which is mysterious because the exception passes through a NonBlockingStream which doesn't catch it... seems like a non blocking stream should expect EAGAIN
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3136[23:01:45] <Tenkawa> ahh .. can you catch even the thread that the exception is called from?
3137[23:01:51] <Tenkawa> or is it from main?
3138[23:01:59] <SerajewelKS> unclear
3139[23:02:11] <SerajewelKS> replaced-url
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3141[23:02:26] <Tenkawa> just a sec.. let me take a look
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3144[23:02:52] <SerajewelKS> "resource temporary unavailable" is the strerror() for EAGAIN but i think it's also the strerror() for other errnos
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3146[23:03:33] <Tenkawa> hmmmmm
3147[23:03:35] <SerajewelKS> i wonder what happens if stdin is redirected from /dev/null
3148[23:03:39] <Tenkawa> I wonder
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3150[23:03:53] <Tenkawa> is that openjdk 1.8 compat?
3151[23:04:03] <Tenkawa> i saw that in his other trace
3152[23:04:06] <wyre> I've got a 146M log
3153[23:04:14] <wyre> I cannot upload it xddd
3154[23:04:24] <SerajewelKS> thinking it might be a bug in openjdk's JRE?
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3156[23:04:32] <Tenkawa> if it cant read those class files and run them
3157[23:04:49] <SerajewelKS> it's very clearly running
3158[23:05:06] <Tenkawa> parts of it are potentially
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3160[23:05:29] <SerajewelKS> i don't think you'll get an IOException if a .class file (not being loaded from reflection) fails, wouldn't you get an Error subtype?
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3163[23:05:49] <Tenkawa> it could be broken in sections.. thats why thread captures are crucial i think
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3166[23:06:14] <wyre> give me a moment, I'm going to upload the log to my MEGA account
3167[23:06:22] <Tenkawa> run it live then backtrace it once it happens
3168[23:06:25] <SerajewelKS> yes but an IOException seems unlikely in that case. and especially since the backtrace indicates this is happening in read() in think occam's razor suggests it's failing to read stdin.
3169[23:06:44] <SerajewelKS> what you're suggesting is a huge stretch in contradiction with the stack trace
3170[23:06:50] <Tenkawa> well ioexceptions are handlers and those do tend to get changed a lot
3171[23:07:42] <Tenkawa> the url you gave me only had 15 lines
3172[23:07:52] <Tenkawa> that wasnt much to work with
3173[23:07:54] <SerajewelKS> the trace shows an IOException from FileInputStream.read()
3174[23:07:56] <SerajewelKS> i agree
3175[23:08:08] <wyre> how can I provide you more info?
3176[23:08:19] <Tenkawa> hmmm
3177[23:08:22] <SerajewelKS> that trace indicates failure to read from standard input as the starting point, which is why we're stracing
3178[23:08:41] <Tenkawa> file handler path... config file maybe>
3179[23:08:47] <SerajewelKS> jumping into "maybe a .class file can't be loaded" is a huge leap...
3180[23:08:54] <Tenkawa> true
3181[23:09:09] <Tenkawa> does this thing use config files for path locations?
3182[23:09:30] <SerajewelKS> i mean the bottom of the trace is ConsoleReader
3183[23:09:31] <wyre> what thing? Minecraft server?
3184[23:09:38] <SerajewelKS> are we going to ignore that and assume it's NOT reading from the console?
3185[23:09:55] <wyre> the issue after this message when server is starting is that I cannot use the console server
3186[23:10:03] <wyre> that's why it is stdin involved
3187[23:10:04] <wyre> I think
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3193[23:10:51] <SerajewelKS> we're looking to see if the exception is caused by EAGAIN. if so, then NonBlockingInputStream should handle that (i'd think) and we can call a bug on that class.
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3196[23:11:30] <SerajewelKS> looks like this is a thread dedicated to console i/o though, so i have no idea why the i/o would need to be non-blocking in the first place
3197[23:11:31] <wyre> are you going to be able to read this log?
3198[23:11:46] <wyre> it is 186M large
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3200[23:12:05] <SerajewelKS> we're not reading the whole thing, just looking for the revelant part
3201[23:12:10] <Tenkawa> oh i'm finding interesting hits from google on this error
3202[23:12:23] <SerajewelKS> i found some too, which blamed the kernel
3203[23:12:29] <SerajewelKS> got a chuckle out of that
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3205[23:12:35] <wyre> SerajewelKS, where are you finding? in here? replaced-url
3206[23:12:39] <SerajewelKS> "we're doing non-blocking IO wrong, must be the kernel's fault"
3207[23:12:45] <friendofafriend> Sheesh, by the time you're making logs that big, it's time to start zipping them.
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3209[23:12:49] <Tenkawa> these blame multiple servers running and port forwarding
3210[23:13:00] <SerajewelKS> Tenkawa: the fuck?
3211[23:13:17] <Tenkawa> replaced-url
3212[23:13:21] <SerajewelKS> minecraft server support threads, a great place to find the blind leading the blind...
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3215[23:13:44] <SerajewelKS> Tenkawa: that's not the same error
3216[23:14:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1545
3217[23:14:06] <SerajewelKS> also "the handle is invalid" looks very much like a windows error
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3219[23:14:21] <Tenkawa> i looked up the java exceptions verbatim
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3221[23:14:57] <Tenkawa> and its in that thread
3222[23:14:58] <SerajewelKS> "the handle is invalid" != "resource not available", this is not the same error. and the server proceeds beyond that point anyway.
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3224[23:15:06] <SerajewelKS> no it's not
3225[23:15:25] <SerajewelKS> it's thrown at the same point but is a different error
3226[23:15:46] <SerajewelKS> wyre: is this exception where the server stops? is there anything else in the output?
3227[23:15:50] <wyre> the server is working fine, just that I cannot use console server
3228[23:15:58] <Tenkawa> oh
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3230[23:16:01] <wyre> SerajewelKS, nope
3231[23:16:13] <SerajewelKS> wyre: aha okay, i thought the server was dying here
3232[23:16:15] <wyre> well, wait, I'm gonna pass you the whole server starting log
3233[23:16:23] <wyre> no, the server works perfectly
3234[23:16:33] <SerajewelKS> regardless, it does look a lot like they're trying non-blocking IO without handling EAGAIN which would be a bug
3235[23:16:36] <Tenkawa> well that could very easily be a setting
3236[23:16:40] <wyre> is just I cannot control it from its own console
3237[23:17:02] <Tenkawa> that it cant read from a file
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3239[23:17:16] <Tenkawa> because of a missing attribute
3240[23:17:28] <wyre> a workaround is to include --nojline as spigot.jar parameter
3241[23:17:34] <wyre> then I have got a primitive prompt
3242[23:17:41] <wyre> without colours or autocomplete
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3244[23:18:26] *** Quits: station2 (~Adium@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3245[23:18:32] <SerajewelKS> aha so it's a readline-like thing
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3247[23:19:33] <SerajewelKS> wyre: i wonder what happens if you use oracle's JRE instead of openjdk
3248[23:19:48] <wyre> SerajewelKS, I'm using oracle's
3249[23:19:55] <wyre> but is the same with openjdk
3250[23:20:02] <wyre> I did test that yesterday xddd
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3255[23:21:09] <wyre> SerajewelKS, this is the whole log server in starting process replaced-url
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3259[23:21:38] <SerajewelKS> i'd 100% call a bug on jline
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3261[23:22:00] <wyre> SerajewelKS, where? minecraft server devs?
3262[23:22:02] <wyre> jre?
3263[23:22:09] <wyre> ubuntu?
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3275[23:28:54] <wyre> SerajewelKS, so are you suggesting me to fill a bug report, right?
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3298[23:43:30] <SerajewelKS> wyre: against jline, which appears to be part of (or imported into) craftbukkit
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3316[23:56:14] <rmzelnick> I need help resetting mysql server password
3317[23:56:15] <wyre> SerajewelKS, mmm I cannot find where report that
3318[23:56:40] <rmzelnick> I've tried using the skip-grant-tables and updated the user table, but still the error persists
3319[23:56:56] <rmzelnick> Now I'm trying this approach by using dpkg-reconfigure
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3322[23:57:09] <wyre> I think I've got jline2
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3325[23:57:17] <rmzelnick> however dpkg-reconfigure mysql-server does not prompts me to update the password
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