109[01:50:34] <hemebond> Is this the appropriate place to ask an
Apt question? I'm trying to install a package but it fails
saying the dependency isn't going to be installed and I
don't know how to tell it to install the dependencies.
110[01:52:13] <hemebond> It might have something to do with one
dependency repo having a higher priority but with a version too old
to meet the requirements.
123[02:04:16] <dpkg> In order to troubleshoot your problem with
apt-get, apt or aptitude we need ALL OF THE FOLLOWING information:
1. complete output of your apt-get/apt/aptitude run (including the
command used) 2. output from "apt-cache policy pkg1
pkg2..." for ALL packages mentioned ANYWHERE in the problem,
and 3. "apt-cache policy". Use
replaced-url
134[02:18:53] *** Quits: arthurmde_ (uid38505@replaced-ip) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
135[02:19:39] <bitess> hemebond: when installing from
jessie-backports you have to pass the -t jessie-backports argument
to temporarily raise the priority.
174[03:02:47] <mpo> What do I do, if I have opened a bug but
want to add further information after the bug was acknowledged? Is
that what the bug mail address is for? Do I send further info there?
389[08:27:18] *** Quits: mibo (~mibo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
390[08:29:25] <Joral> I have a computer with a radeon x1300
connected to my monitor and a nv760ti that I am attempting to use
for opencl support. I currently have debian 9.5 running. after
installing the nvidia driver it no longer boots to gui. tty7 is just
a blank screen with a cursor in the upper left. any idea what I did
wrong or how to fix it?
391[08:30:51] <rhizome_> ah ha, my card isn't supported by
390
430[09:29:14] <nezos> I have a pdf that doesn't have
embedded fonts (Helvetica) and it displays on screen correctly. When
I print it I get garbage characters. Any idea what to do? I tried
printing from command line lp myfile.pdf and again garbage
431[09:29:28] <nezos> I can print it on windows correctly
442[09:39:04] <nezos> canon's official driver doesn't
work, so I am using the generic drivers, they print correctly all
other documents but this one only garbage
452[09:45:00] <nezos> I don't have Helvetica installed, you
need to buy it to install it
453[09:45:49] <nezos> ok I did another test, I printed to PDF
(cups printer) and then I printed the resulting PDF and it worked,
CUPS substituted the Helvetica with a blank font Type-3
454[09:46:25] <Something1> Liberation-sans is metric compatible
I think, you could alias it?
461[09:54:35] <Something1> I am not too well versed with fonts
and printing and all that. I think you do
`~/.config/fontconfig/fonts.conf` and have
replaced-url
462[09:55:42] *** Quits: iflema (~ian@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
463[09:57:15] <nezos> I don't have a fontconfig folder
under .config but fonts.conf is in etc and it says not to change
it:P
465[09:58:02] <Something1> You can create it! mkdir -p
~/.config/fontconfig
466[09:59:19] <nezos> ok thanks Something1 I will try your
suggestion as well, now I have to wait for 2-3 hours cause I
overwrote the problematic file and I need to wait for the system to
generate a new one:P
485[10:19:10] <dionysus69> so I have an HDMI cable connected to
the monitor and monitor has an audio out jack, but the audio
isn't available, how do I troubleshoot that :S ?
492[10:29:56] <blackflow> dionysus69: are you using hdmi as
device to output audio on? I mean, is it configured to be used as
the active device by pulseaudio
493[10:30:21] <dionysus69> ohh
494[10:30:43] <dionysus69> blackflow: I forgot even though I
switch that daily on my laptop :D
500[10:32:43] <saulus> Hi, for systemd I have written
/lib/systemd/system/vncserver@.service and experience that changes
to that file are only recognized after a full reboot of the machine.
How can I make systemd recognize changes without rebooting?
501[10:32:55] <blackflow> dionysus69: but is it listed, does PA
see it as audio device? if not, then I suppose something something
drivers.
520[10:44:46] <alibert414141> hello, i have a strange issue. i
added lets encrypt certificates and ran dpkg-reconfigure
ca-certificates and now root see's a valid cert when using
openssl s_client connect, but a regular user does not. i mean how
the h.. can this be?
521[10:45:03] <alibert414141> (and how do i resolve this issue)
532[10:50:56] <saulus> Something1: I already do sudo systemctl
restart vncserver@:1.service
533[10:51:22] <saulus> Something1: directly thereafter I call
status and dont see the change
534[10:51:40] *** Quits: rootkea (~rootkea@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
535[10:51:50] <Something1> What about disable, enable, restart?
536[10:52:20] <saulus> also part of my command line
537[10:53:43] <saulus> This is my call, but it doesnt detect
file changes until I reboot the machine: daemon-reload; disable
vncserver@:1.service; daemon-reload; daemon-reexec; enable
vncserver@:1.service; reenable vncserver@:1.service; restart
vncserver@:1.service; status vncserver@:1.service
557[11:09:11] <blackflow> saulus: you wouldn't happen to
have an override for the service under /etc/systemd/system/? I just
noticed you said you wrote the template under /lib . Unless
you're doing that through a package, I'd say it's
really not recommended to write or change anything there, but use
/etc
561[11:12:15] <dionysus69> blackflow: yes there's some
output, about 4 lines, Its on different pc so I cant paste it here
562[11:13:41] <blackflow> dionysus69: so that's a start,
meaning the hdmi snd driver is there. next check what alsa sees/does
about that. this is the part I've never had to fiddle with
hdmi, so I don't know what would be needed to enable if, if it
requires enabling.
563[11:14:06] <dionysus69> ok thanks lots :) will try something
:)
571[11:18:19] <blackflow> saulus: though I'm not sure
there's that order necessary, perhaps you just need to _stop_
(as opposed to _restart_) it at some point after daemon-reload
579[11:27:02] <axgb> My computer won't boot. I updated
linux (as in the kernel) recently, but I did not restart the laptop
as it says to, but rather left it until the battery ran out. When I
tried to start it earlier, various error messages appeared and it
said that it went into emergency mode. What do I do?
619[11:42:09] <axgb> I have tried each of the options for
booting debian and all give the error message as in that picture
620[11:45:32] <axgb> I've tried to boot a live USB boot
repair program, but it says that it says it will only work if it is
booted using efi boot, but I cannot get the bios to do efi boot
621[11:45:41] <axgb> I can't determine if the memory stick
is faulty or something
643[11:56:48] <blackflow> dutchfish: if root partition was
failing, wouldn't the other services also be affected? or are
you referring to some partial corruption something? I'm more
willing to bet taht the kernel update borked something wrt network
drivers or config
645[11:57:40] <blackflow> if that failed network service is the
reason for this anyway. Network target was reached tho'
646[11:58:14] <dutchfish> blackflow, could be, we have not
enough info (yet) what really is happening. My best bet is, booting
into recovery mode and work from there to diagnose.
647[11:58:40] <dutchfish> blackflow, the boot partition
apperently is working
648[11:59:33] <blackflow> "root account is locked"....
yeah... why do people do that...
649[11:59:47] <dutchfish> blackflow, mm... maybe intramfs update
hosed something; that is more likely
650[11:59:56] <dutchfish> (on kernel update)
651[12:00:11] *** Quits: v01t (~v01t@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
657[12:01:45] *** Quits: lankanmon (~LKNnet@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
658[12:02:40] <blackflow> I think the error would be different
then. "root account is locked" is very specific to it
being.... locked. like, ! instead of password in /etc/shadow
744[13:33:37] <luckywho> alsa-lib_1.1.6-1.debian.tar.xz? how to
install
745[13:33:38] <alibert414141> blackflow: "added lets
encrypt" = i downloaded and added their CA and intermediate and
added them to my locally trusted CAs
771[13:50:16] <deadrom> can linux in general and deb9 in
particular handly displayport splitters? not
repeat-same-picture-on-2nd-monitor but Mulitple Stream Transport
splitters that give 2 independent monitors over one host output?
772[13:50:24] <deadrom> *handle
773[13:51:14] <dina16> maybe , it's say pulseaudio 12 have
bug, i don't have any issue with it :)
774[13:51:36] *** Quits: NightTrain (coffee@replaced-ip) (Quit: Lost terminal)
775[13:52:16] <blackflow> dina16: one month is not enough to
build the full picture of its stability. not trying to discourage
you, just lower your expectations and be prepared ;)
780[13:53:50] <blackflow> dina16: actually, I think OFTC is the
place for debian-next
781[13:53:52] <petn-randall> !debian-next
782[13:53:52] <dpkg> #debian-next is the channel for
testing/unstable support on the OFTC network (irc.oftc.net), *not*
on freenode. If you get "Cannot join #debian-next (Channel is
invite only)." it means you did not read it's on
irc.oftc.net.
783[13:53:59] <blackflow> yeah, that.
784[13:54:03] <petn-randall> dina16: This is the testing/sid
support channel. ^^^
785[13:54:20] <petn-randall> In case you hit any bugs
you'll get help a lot quicker over there.
815[14:10:55] <dionysus69> ok so I fixed the resolution of the
display by upgrading to the backports kernel, I have intel i7-8700
and the graphics is laggy
847[14:29:52] *** Quits: Brigo (~Brigo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
848[14:30:29] <deadrom> inch: ah, in case you want to know: the
required feature is called "Multi Stream Transport" or MST
and is a DP 1.2 feature which the host driver has to support. so
good to know nvidia have it in their binary blob
857[14:35:01] <axgb> I updated linux (kernel), but failed to
restart as directed, rather leaving the laptop till the laptop ran
out of battery and turned off, and I think this may be the cause of
the issue
871[14:38:55] <awal1> when grub prompt select second entry
advanced options is called if not wrong and there boot with old
linux
872[14:38:56] <oiaohm> axgb: I have fix by grub-install on
different machines a lot.
873[14:39:00] <sZbcE8qNfG> for a simple NAS server, is software
raid good enough?
874[14:39:06] <axgb> I'm trying to use a program called
"boot repair", but I can't make it work
875[14:39:19] <greycat> I'm wondering what
"doesn't boot" actually means, and what options exist
in his "Advanced options for Debian" GRUB menu, and which
ones he tried.
876[14:39:19] <awal1> !repair grub
877[14:39:49] <axgb> If I go into advanced options for debian,
it has two options: standard and safe mode
879[14:40:01] <axgb> I think it was safe mode, but whatever it
is, it does not boot
880[14:40:28] <petn-randall> sZbcE8qNfG: Probably, though it
depends on your requirements.
881[14:40:55] <awal1> !fixmbr
882[14:40:55] <dpkg> To reinstall <GRUB> boot to your
Debian install disk/live CD, switch to the other console (Alt-F2),
mount your root filesystem (mount -t ext4 /dev/whatever /target ;
mount --bind /dev /target/dev ; mount -t proc none /target/proc ;
mount -t sysfs none /target/sys), chroot into it (chroot /target),
run "mount /boot/efi" on EFI and "update-grub
&& grub-install /dev/whatever". See also <rescue
mode>, <dual boot guide>, <supergrub>.
883[14:41:01] <sZbcE8qNfG> i currently use a
synology...it's perfect does everything and more. Goes above
and beyond
886[14:41:17] <sZbcE8qNfG> thinking about replacing with a
Debian NAS server......but that's going to require a lot of
work
887[14:41:52] <awal1> dpkg: tell axgb about fixmbr
888[14:41:55] <axgb> Will those instructions work with this boot
repair startup disk? Or do I need to make a specifically debian one
889[14:42:22] <awal1> excuses
890[14:42:32] <awal1> not the topic i wanted
891[14:42:33] <greycat> axgb: those instructions assume a
specific problem, but as far as I know, you never actually stated
WHICH problem you have.
892[14:42:34] <oiaohm> axgb: those are debian install disc
instructions the network install disc version of debian will work
with those instructions.
893[14:43:07] <greycat> axgb: what does "doesn't
boot" mean? What actually happens? What do you see?
894[14:43:36] <greycat> Clearly you see the GRUB menu, so at
least we know that GRUB is installed and is executed by your
firmware/BIOS.
895[14:43:41] <axgb> GRUB appears; the option for windows works,
which is how I can chat here, but if I pick the option for debian I
get this:
896[14:43:46] <oiaohm> axgb: from the debian chroot with network
up in rescue moe to run apt upgrade and other apt commands to dig
you out hole if there has been some package install failure.
900[14:45:00] <greycat> OK, so it *does* boot, but it fails to
start the network interfaces, and then it wants to go to a
single-user-mode console, but it can't do so because
there's no root account password, because you did the
"I'll leave the password blank and survive on sudo"
thing.
901[14:45:19] <axgb> Yes
902[14:45:50] <greycat> I think ... what I would do is boot with
"init=/bin/sh" and all the remounting-read-write and so
on, then set a root password.
903[14:45:55] <greycat> !i forgot root's password
904[14:45:55] <dpkg> For GRUB: 1) press 'e' to edit
the kernel setting in the grub command line (add
'init=/bin/sh' to the end of it) 2) 'fsck' your
root file system, 3) 'mount -o remount,rw /', 4)
'passwd root' 5) 'mount -o remount,ro /' 6)
'reboot -d -f' (exec /sbin/init should work); For LILO: 1)
'Linux init=/bin/sh' at the LILO boot prompt (hold Shift
while booting), steps 2-6 are the same; For yaboot: 1) 'Linux
init=/bin/sh' at yaboot prompt.
911[14:47:18] *** Quits: CyberHacker (~CyberHack@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
912[14:47:35] <axgb> So I use those commands to enable root
account, then I run update-grub
913[14:48:00] <oiaohm> The reason why I go to the network
install disc with debian with this problems is you don't need
to know the root password that way.
914[14:48:21] *** Quits: argoneus (~argoneus@replaced-ip) (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.)
920[14:49:40] <axgb> Why would it refuse to go any further if it
fails to start the network hardware?
921[14:50:14] <greycat> I do not know. It wants you to run
"systemctl status networking.service" to find out.
922[14:51:27] <axgb> OK; I just assumed that since I had updated
linux kernel and then not properly turned off the computer that
doing as such must have caused it
939[14:59:25] <Brigo> axgb, i can't read in that image,
What have just failed?
940[14:59:26] <greycat> My eyes aren't good enough to read
all of that, but it looks like "failed to start file system
something on /dev/disk/something"
947[15:01:08] <Brigo> axgb, maybe you need to fsck that.
948[15:01:21] <greycat> So, *not* a grub problem. The file
system that it wants to mount on /home (?) is not mountable, either
because the device is no longer responding, or the file system needs
to be checked manually, etc.
957[15:04:22] <axgb> So it is from unclean shutdown, but not
necessarily relating to having updated kernel at the same time?
958[15:04:31] <greycat> that's my current hypothesis, yeah
959[15:04:55] <greycat> the kernel *appears* to be booting
960[15:05:26] <axgb> This is a new computer I am using: the old
one had a terrible battery so it would just run out of battery and
shut down all the time and nothing ever happened?
961[15:05:46] <greycat> dumb luck?
962[15:06:04] <axgb> It had a faulty power connector, so it
would be randomly shut absolutely all the time
963[15:06:22] *** Quits: Brigo (~Brigo@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
965[15:07:12] <axgb> What happens once I have done fsck
966[15:07:48] <greycat> !ifrp
967[15:07:49] <dpkg> For GRUB: 1) press 'e' to edit
the kernel setting in the grub command line (add
'init=/bin/sh' to the end of it) 2) 'fsck' your
root file system, 3) 'mount -o remount,rw /', 4)
'passwd root' 5) 'mount -o remount,ro /' 6)
'reboot -d -f' (exec /sbin/init should work); For LILO: 1)
'Linux init=/bin/sh' at the LILO boot prompt (hold Shift
while booting), steps 2-6 are the same; For yaboot: 1) 'Linux
init=/bin/sh' at yaboot prompt.
968[15:07:56] <greycat> Proceed with steps 5 and 6.
986[15:18:23] *** Quits: fedorafan (~fedorafan@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
987[15:18:30] <kbob> hello, after a system crash (unplug power
cord by mistake) I can't type as usual, it's slow and I
can't type some letters. The keyboard is working properly in
this PC: what can be the prob?
1010[15:31:19] <dionysus69> I tried this i915.alpha_support=1 and
didn't help. I still have a problem with intel i7-8700, I have
kernel from backports 4.17 version which it says everywhere online
that it supports coffee lake, so why isnt my pc recognizing the
video accelerator then?
1012[15:34:10] <jelly> dionysus69: full support probably requires
upgrades on all the components in the X stack, not just the kernel.
So you'd probably need newer X server, newer libdrm, newer Mesa
(OpenGL)
1023[15:35:47] <jelly> dionysus69: you can TRY and see if merely
upgradeing mesa, and installing intel gpu firmware from
stretch-backports as well, makes things better
1024[15:35:51] <dionysus69> I could handle debian-testing branch
as I have before but I will have extra headaches
1025[15:36:13] <dionysus69> ok thanks so those two packages that
you listed?
1026[15:36:25] <dionysus69> or do you mean
xserver-xorg-video-intel
1027[15:36:30] <kbob> blackflow: there is nothing in the logs,
luckily I have done the backup few ours ago so reinstall is not a
problem
1030[15:36:49] <jelly> the libgl1 one is mesa, you sohuld not be
using xserver-xorg-video-intel, and I don't know what the intel
gpu firmware package is called
1031[15:37:01] <blackflow> kbob: don't assume reinstallation
would fix this. I don't see any causality there software-wise.
only hardware-wise
1037[15:37:41] <blackflow> kbob: the only software related thing
I could think of is probably unlikely in your case, eg. system being
extra sluggish because something something btrfs raid broke and is
now resilvering, stuff like that.
1038[15:38:13] <jelly> yeah. that firmware-* thing needs to match
the kernel you're running, so if the kernel is from
stretch-backports, this and any other firmware will also need to be
that new
1083[16:01:34] *** Quits: argusbr (~online@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1084[16:01:57] <jelly> dionysus69: my rule of thumb is: for
Debian, either get previous gen hw (never the latest), or hw that
has been at least 12 months in the market
1085[16:02:27] <greycat> this is also good advice for budget
reasons
1114[16:09:33] <dionysus70> jelly: it says it is already the
latest veersion
1115[16:09:44] <dionysus70> that package got upgraded I guess
when I was upgrading others
1116[16:09:53] <jelly> I _think_ mesa pulls it in automatically
but maybe not. Since there's no backport of X server, if that
does not make a difference you're out of luck and have to go
buster
1171[16:55:02] <dka> I am looking for a Debian Stretch tutorial
to configure my UNIX hosts to authenticate against LDAP. Would be
appreciated if we could also pull group from the LDAP.
1193[17:13:53] <Akuw> after light go off my debian server
can't boot properly, i got this when use fdisk -l
"Partition does not start on physical start boundary after
shutdown"
1197[17:21:00] <jelly> dka: setting up a ldap server for the
first time is not 5hours, just reading and understanding I'd
say would take 1-3 weeks worth, probably setting it up once,
figuring you chose the wrong schema or wrong UI, and redoing
everything anew
1198[17:21:08] *** Namarrgon is now known as Guest17061
1214[17:25:30] <jelly> wr: quit hexchat, make sure there are no
leftover hexchat processes anywhere (kill them if needed, and
reverify), start again and see what happens
1215[17:25:46] <jelly> wr: do the contents of that file look like
normal text?
1216[17:25:58] <wr> jelly, my doubt is... if i reboot, what makes
file get empty?
1226[17:29:38] <wr> jelly, now i have many more because restored
it like 783
1227[17:30:02] <jelly> oh, you could have mentioned that
1228[17:30:11] <wr> jelly, i have two more machines with it and
does not happen too, now does this, cant get why
1229[17:31:29] <jelly> wr: is this reproducible, does it always
happen on a reboot? Might be a slight fs corruption, might be a disk
full situation, it's hard to say if you can't show actual
symptoms.
1235[17:34:55] <wr> jelly, i dont reboot that often debian as you
can imagine uptimes are high but last time i did it got erased
again, i would have to do a backup on file and restart to see if
does by third time
1236[17:35:24] <jelly> ask again next time it happens and try not
to destroy evidence
1237[17:36:09] <jelly> could be any number of things, I
don't want to guess wildly
1238[17:36:44] <wr> jelly, i can just reboot and see if happens
again
1239[17:37:17] <jelly> yes, that might provide an answer to
"is this reproducible"
1243[17:40:11] <Akuw> after light go off my debian server
can't boot properly, i got this when use fdisk -l
"Partition does not start on physical start boundary after
shutdown"
1244[17:42:06] *** Quits: v01d4lph4 (~v01d4lph4@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1250[17:51:33] <jelly> it is probably not relevant to machine
failing to boot, at all
1251[17:51:50] <jelly> !ask
1252[17:51:51] <dpkg> If you have a question, just ask! For
example: "I have a problem with ___; I'm running Debian
version ___. When I try to do ___ I get the following output ___. I
expected it to do ___." Don't ask if you can ask, if
anyone uses it, or pick one person to ask. We're all
volunteers; make it easy for us to help you. If you don't get
an answer try a few hours later or on debian-user@lists.debian.org.
See <smart questions><errors>.
1273[17:59:31] <jelly> Akuw: then, reboot, remove
"quiet" option from the kernel boot parameters, tell us
what it shows and where the boot process seems to hand
1274[17:59:31] <gedia> hello all. is there any way to determine
the association between traditional and persistent device names for
disk other than looking for symlinks under /dev/disk/by-id for
example?
1275[17:59:37] <jelly> to hang*
1276[17:59:38] <obiwahn> jelly via login?
1277[17:59:39] <wr> jelly, this time didnt happen
1278[17:59:44] <Akuw> After press Control-D
1279[17:59:58] <Akuw> there is shell promt
1280[17:59:59] <obiwahn>
/usr/lib/systemd/user-environment-generators/30-systemd-environment-d-generator
is compiled
1290[18:00:58] <greycat> obiwahn: what part of the output of
jelly's command did you not understand? what did your own
testing reveal, when you tried it?
1322[18:04:08] <greycat> obiwahn: some of the DEs fuck with the
locale environment settings when you login, so it's important
to rule that out.
1323[18:04:15] <greycat> GNOME fucks with EVERYTHING.
1324[18:04:40] <jelly> in a bad way, not a pleasurable way
1325[18:04:44] <greycat> Yeah.
1326[18:04:52] <jelly> gnome is not a slut
1327[18:04:54] <rant> I did like picpaste but it is no more.. and
imgur is the only other one I know of that doesnt require a
registration to use.. flikr works.. has android apps and such but
afaik it requires a yahoo account
1328[18:05:07] <obiwahn> gnome and kde do far too much magic i
relly just need a few windows :)
1329[18:05:16] <jelly> obiwahn: how do you start X?
1342[18:07:11] <obiwahn> hum with startx i get the LC_TIME value
1343[18:07:21] <rant> wr: yes.. both are replaced now
1344[18:07:29] <obiwahn> that was a good hint!!! ill inspect my
lightdm!!!
1345[18:07:46] <greycat> obiwahn: because this time, you logged
in on the Linux virtual console using login(1), and login has a PAM
config file that tells it to read the horrible stupid useless broken
/etc/default/locale file.
1349[18:08:27] <jelly> Akuw: is this with or without
"quiet"? Can you show what's on screen BEFORE typing
anything, including Control-D?
1350[18:08:34] <greycat> Using /etc/default/locale is BAD,
because it overrides the locale variables that you set in your ssh
client that you want to be propagated into your ssh session on the
Debian machine.
1351[18:08:38] <obiwahn> greycat: you do not like /etc/default
1352[18:08:51] <jelly> greycat: it's neither horrible nor
useless. Just a bit redundant
1353[18:08:52] <obiwahn> or you think it is horrible to have
different locales?
1354[18:08:57] <greycat> I do not like "dpkg-reconfigure
locales" setting a "default" that isn't a
default but a hard override.
1355[18:09:08] <greycat> I think it's AWESOME to have
user-configurable locales!
1359[18:09:30] <jelly> greycat: it's a global default that
is applied at the only sane point where it can be applied
1360[18:09:35] <obiwahn> but a sane preset is good
1361[18:09:44] <greycat> jelly: except it's broken and
wrong.
1362[18:09:45] <jelly> unless you want systemd-specific solution
1363[18:09:51] <wr> !dpkg debian
1364[18:09:51] <dpkg> i heard debian is
replaced-url
1365[18:10:03] <obiwahn> egnlish manpages are the only sane
option but time or papersize etc
1366[18:10:21] <jelly> greycat: how is it "wrong"
1367[18:10:31] <greycat> If you ssh into a Debian server from an
HP-UX box with a *.iso88591 locale, and the Debian server has
LANG=en_US.utf8 or whatever in /etc/default/locale, it will OVERRIDE
what ssh sends, and then you will be in the wrong encoding.
1369[18:11:07] <greycat> The only way to get it to work is to
REMOVE the setting from /etc/default/locale and put something
CONDITIONAL in the /etc/profile and whatever the *csh equivalent is,
and let DM logins go fuck themselves.
1370[18:11:21] <themill> err, no? the encoding asked for by ssh
is honoured.
1372[18:11:38] *** Quits: nathamanath (~nathamana@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1373[18:11:43] <themill> That's actually a common failure
when people ssh in from a mac and Debian doesn't have the same
locale names
1374[18:12:40] <inquisitiv3> I'm trying to expand a
partition (contains everything) in a VM running Sid. The disk has
MBR and is just partitions with FS (no LVM or encryption). The FS is
EXT4. According to resize2fs' manpage I should expand the
partition with fdisk or a similar program before expanding the FS.
I've done this before, but with a disk running LVM. But I
can't find out how to extend the partition without first
deleting it. Is there a way to do that?
1375[18:12:45] <jelly> greycat: that's just broken, how is
it wrong?
1376[18:13:56] <obiwahn> inquisitiv3: partition and fs are
different things
1377[18:14:04] <Wulf> inquisitiv3: it's okay to delete the
partition and recreate it with bigger size
1378[18:14:15] <Wulf> inquisitiv3: but make sure it starts at the
same position as before
1379[18:14:18] <obiwahn> you need the expand the partition and
then you will be able to grow the filesystem
1380[18:14:33] <obiwahn> if it is too complicated use gparted
1382[18:14:34] <greycat> jelly: All I can tell you right now, as
I head out to find food, is that after removing the crap from
/etc/environment and from /etc/default/locale and putting
conditional ${LANG:=...} in /etc/profile, my shit all worked
correctly.
1391[18:16:14] <inquisitiv3> Wulf: So I've to boot a live
system in the VM and do it? No expansion without unmounting and
deleting the current root partition?
1407[18:20:35] <rant> wr: yes file.io seems decent but the
firefox one, like many google projects doesnt seem like its more
than someones pet project that will probably disappear like google
wave :P
1408[18:20:52] <inquisitiv3> Wulf: So I should just delete it and
create a new partition?
1414[18:22:55] <jelly> LANG=C surely exists, even if locale.gen
is for some reason out of sync. Let me check if I've messed up
my client ssh_config maybe
1415[18:23:36] <jelly> oh, I did -_-
1416[18:24:58] <themill> jelly: LANG gets walloped by pam,
apparently. Everything else makes it through
1420[18:25:16] *** Quits: Uberius (~Uberius@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1421[18:26:13] <inquisitiv3> Does fdisk list partition's
sizes or fs' sizes?
1422[18:26:34] <themill> and that pam config was added because
other people were complaining that ssh sessions didn't use
/etc/default/locale (i.e. the poor maintainer can't win)
1423[18:29:59] <jelly> nope, I can't LC_CTYPE either
1439[18:38:20] <inquisitiv3> What partitions does Debian create
by default on a BIOS system? I did as Wulf suggested and only
deleted my root part., but when I create it again to takes the same
amount of space. I guess it's because another partition comes
after that and lastly the swap partition. The confusing thing is
that `lsblk` and fdisk report different sizes of the middle part.
According to lsblk it's 1K, but according to fdisk it's
4G. But if I summarize
1440[18:38:20] <inquisitiv3> the sizes reported by fdisk it
doesn't make sense.
1452[18:44:46] <inquisitiv3> jhutchins_wk: Maybe I'm blind,
but I can't find the information I'm looking for... Do you
happen to know what section explains the partitions that's is
created automatically when you use the guided partitioning on a BIOS
system?
1453[18:47:14] <rant> is there a way for me to logout and keep
the wifi connected with n-m or do I need to just install a lock
program?
1454[18:48:00] <greycat> I don't know anything about n-m but
I would definitely advise installing a session locking program.
1455[18:48:09] <rant> I just dont really wanna bother with
another program especially if I'm not sure if it'll work
right with fingerprint auth, when I know lightdm works.. but loggin
out kills my wifi when I got stuff running in screen
1456[18:49:03] <rant> cause honestly I'm not even sure what
my passwd is :P I know the rootfs password and I use fingerprint for
user identity..
1469[18:53:00] <judd> Package debian-archive-keyring (misc,
important) in buster/amd64: GnuPG archive keys of the Debian
archive. Version: 2017.7; Size: 55.6k; Installed: 114k
1470[18:53:30] <rant> hmm I could swear testing/unstable keys
were in the stable package but I dont see them on my system.. just
stretch, jessie, wheezy
1478[18:56:14] <rant> but the package is simpler imho
1479[18:56:37] <ExoUNX> yah I just did dpkg -i keyring.deb
1480[18:57:01] <rant> o.O
1481[18:57:15] <jelly> ExoUNX: however, don't mix repos for
different releases (or distros) unless you know EXACTLY what
you're doing and what the consequences can be
1482[18:57:38] <rant> where/how did you get this keyring.deb? :P
1483[18:57:40] <ExoUNX> jelly, yah, I'm using the repo for
one package
1505[19:03:02] <nodiscc> dpkg bot used to have a one-line answer
on how to backport a sid package, where is it?
1506[19:03:03] <dpkg> nodiscc: I think you lost me on that one
1507[19:03:08] <rant> !ssb
1508[19:03:08] <dpkg> First, check for a backport on
<debian-backports>. If unavailable: 1) Add a deb-src line for
sid (not a deb line!); ask me about <deb-src sid> 2) enable
debian-backports (see <bdo>) 3) aptitude update; aptitude
install build-essential; aptitude build-dep packagename; apt-get -b
source packagename; 4) install the resultant debs. To change
compilation options, see <package recompile>; for versions
newer than sid see <uupdate>.
1523[19:08:05] <EdePopede> what happened to the pa mixer between
the versions? seems i can't change volume on one channel
anymore or main volume without the values in the other tab also
changing. is there a hidden setting or something?
1524[19:08:36] <rant> hmm well that works.. actually I havent
found anything that doesnt work with this fingerprint yet but I
swear some things work better than others.. I put a 2nd print in
there and like synaptic only seems to work with my pinky where
lightdm works better with my index it seems.. I gotta be imagining
that crap.. its all the same backend :P
1525[19:08:44] <jelly> EdePopede: do you mean pavucontrol or some
other thing?
1526[19:09:22] <EdePopede> jelly: right, it is pavucontrol
1528[19:09:51] <petn-randall> Hmm, I've got rhythmbox stuck
in the "D" state, I can't even kill -9 it. I
didn't even know that was possible with rhythmbox.
1529[19:10:53] <jelly> EdePopede: there's a lock button
right of every Playback stream and every Output Device
1530[19:11:13] <jelly> petn-randall: it's not poor
rhythmbox, it's the kernel's fault
1531[19:11:25] <petn-randall> Apparently it's due to an
Android phone connected via USB, even though I never told it to
access it. *sigh*
1532[19:12:07] <jelly> your DE might have tried to mount it
automagically, it MIGHT HAVE SONGS
1533[19:12:16] <sZbcE8qNfG> anyone know of a dual ethernet low
powered x86 x64 machine?
1534[19:12:19] <at0m> ringsong
1535[19:12:44] <greycat> I picture random applications chatting
up the sexy little number that just dropped in. "Heeey there,
babe."
1536[19:12:45] <jelly> petn-randall: if it's a fuse-based
mount as it oft happens, find the backend process and kill it, that
releases IO
1537[19:12:48] <sZbcE8qNfG> trying to replace my custom router
that has 2 USB ethernet with a one that has 2 nics built in
1539[19:13:48] <EdePopede> jelly: this only splits both channels
from each other. dragged mail left down, player left went down too.
that's one of the things, input channel can't be louder
than main volume. dragging the channel up again also changed the one
on the player. they are now at 80% and 51% (mouse wheel changes in
5% steps)
1540[19:13:49] <jelly> petn-randall: with a stuck sshfs, -9 is
required
1541[19:15:19] <jelly> EdePopede: honestly I never figured out
why/how changing the output device volume affects app stream or not
1542[19:15:25] <petn-randall> jelly: There's no fuse to be
done, it's just plugged in to charge. I haven't enabled
any file transfer on the phone. I got it fixed but I'm still
wondering how it can blow up like that.
1543[19:15:36] <rant> sZbcE8qNfG: not really a debian question
replaced-url
1546[19:16:04] <sZbcE8qNfG> i can't believe people trust
ebay for computing devices...the firmware could be installed by the
CIA
1547[19:16:07] <EdePopede> jelly: this is new behaviour in erm...
debian 9... stretch? twitch? *g*
1548[19:16:14] *** Quits: jfoy (~jfoy@replaced-ip) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1549[19:16:21] <at0m> sZbcE8qNfG: then why not go for a dedi
router? it's taken me some time, but find a nice cheap one that
nearly runs debian, and
replaced-url
1566[19:20:32] <rant> they have complete systems for like $150
1567[19:20:33] <EdePopede> jelly: maybe you have an idea for an
alternative? on wheezy i installed it when skype (don't ask...)
stopped supporting alsa. looks more flexible when it comes do
combining channels, but the interface is (and was then) horrible and
now this one.
1568[19:20:47] <sZbcE8qNfG> no way, I will never trust any junk
sold on ali express
1572[19:21:35] <EdePopede> i'm not even sure if the changes
happen on the card, in the driver or whereever or if the application
behaves like this now (what i think it does, since it was behaving
at least under this aspect in the past)
1579[19:24:29] <rant> if you just go to one of these damn sites,
look this up, theyll suggest similar things like the sophos, zygel,
etc.. and then you can search for one you like and buy it from
whomever you trust
1580[19:24:49] <rant> thats just the cheapest, lowest power one I
know of
1592[19:27:17] *** Quits: SopaXorzTaker (~SopaXorzT@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1593[19:28:42] <EdePopede> even the interface elements jump
around, something has a long name, BANG it suddenly needs half of
the screen width (whereas i keep it on the right border). and when i
changed volumes by dragging, not mouse wheel, and then the numbers
changing numbers of digit (like around 100% or -10dB), the width of
the controller changes. and there seem to be no text mode
alternative :/
1597[19:29:11] <context> so i have an already existing debian
install, whats the easiest package to install to have gnome (and be
able to remove it if i dont want it)
1598[19:29:28] <greycat> !install gnome
1599[19:29:28] <dpkg> To install GNOME: «apt-get install
…» 1. 'task-gnome-desktop' (Debian installer
default) 2. 'gnome' (recommended) 3.
'gnome-desktop-environment' (upstream GNOME) 4.
'gnome-core' (like 3, minus end-user applications) 5.
'gnome-session gdm3 network-manager-gnome' (minimalist,
not recommended). You will need Xorg installed as well, ask me about
<install x>.
replaced-url
1602[19:29:44] <context> im having a hard time getting X with DPI
working nicely between my two monitors so i want to see if gnome can
set things nicely that i can steal settings from
1604[19:30:10] <Iarfen> when installing Debian under Windows 10
it can after some time get uninstalled without doing any kind of
partition that after the uninstalling can't be changed again?
I'm trying to avoid to have to install Windows 10 again
1605[19:30:33] <context> also are there any known / useful WM /
setup instructions for wayland? maybe ill give that a go too :x
1606[19:30:43] <petn-randall> Iarfen: I cannot parse your
sentence.
1612[19:32:22] <Iarfen> jelly: no, well, installing it in some
way that I can execute it outside Windows 10, alone :D
1613[19:32:30] <Iarfen> it's mandatory to do a partition for
that purpose?
1614[19:32:39] <jelly> Iarfen: you can use a separate disk
1615[19:32:44] <johnfg> however, the debian system is *not* seen
in the network and sharing center. All seems right on the windows
side. Is there something that has to be set or turned on in debian?
1616[19:32:51] <Iarfen> jelly: another physical hdd you say?
1617[19:33:01] <jelly> Iarfen: or ssd, sure
1618[19:33:03] <petn-randall> Iarfen: Do you want to dual-boot
Windows 10 and Debian? Is that your question?
1619[19:33:11] <Iarfen> petn-randall: yes
1620[19:33:55] <rant> Iarfen: you could even run it from a
thumbdrive.. I've installed to a 32GB thumbdrive before so I
could use it anywhere
1621[19:34:03] <jelly> Iarfen: it is possible to install a linux
like debian side by side with windows, and choose whether windows
loader or grub boots from uefi
1622[19:34:16] <petn-randall> Iarfen: Debian does not touch
anything that could make Windows 10 unbootable. It's usually
the other way around if you have a legacy BIOS. Windows for some
reason sometimes overwrites the bootloader. UEFI eliminates this
issue.
1623[19:34:35] <jelly> that's aobut the only thing UEFI does
better
1638[19:44:43] <inquisitiv3> Thanks for earlier Wulf! You helped
me out :)
1639[19:46:12] <inquisitiv3> Is there a way to automatically
generate a new fstab based on the currently mounted filesystems? Or
do I need to manually edit /etc/fstab?
1640[19:47:14] <inquisitiv3> Every thread I find talks about
editing the file, but I don't know if it's because it
didn't work earlier/people being overly nostalgic.
1641[19:47:48] <greycat> Usually one edits the file FIRST, then
does "mount /foobar" to make sure it works, then reboots
to perform the ultimate test.
1685[20:03:18] <inquisitiv3> I remember seeing a talk by one of
the X.org devs saying that there's bug reports that opened in
the 80's (I think) that hasn't been solvable because of
its architecture.
1686[20:03:36] <Tramtrist> :(
1687[20:03:59] <jelly> greycat: apparently it's a system
where not every app can spy on your keyboard and mouse and events
and windows of any other app.
1688[20:04:29] *** himcesjf_ is now known as him-cesjf
1689[20:05:15] <greycat> Fair enough, and I did read about that,
and the fact that this means you can't copy/paste stuff between
applications in wayland.
1690[20:05:28] <greycat> Unless they came up with some
workaround-hack for that.
1691[20:05:34] <context> what ?
1692[20:05:44] <context> im copy/pasting just fine
1693[20:05:54] <greycat> OK, then the outdated stuff I had been
reading is outdated.
1694[20:06:05] <greycat> I wonder how they hacked that in.
1695[20:06:48] <context> hacked?
1696[20:07:06] <context> copy/paste has nothing to do with what
jelly said
1697[20:07:28] <context> you can share a clipboard. but every app
being able to read your keyboard/mouse events at all times is....
scary
1705[20:11:44] <ticapix> I want to install Debian on a small pc
(a bee-link X55). I managed to burn and install ubuntu server,
centos7. but for debian, it just freeze on the blank screen with
just a non-blinking white cursor.
1736[20:23:06] <blackflow> Sep 07 20:14:05 debian systemd[1]:
apache2.service: Failed to run 'start' task: No such file
or directory
1737[20:23:24] <blackflow> is your config correct? iirc apachectl
-t should test it
1738[20:23:37] <SPF> yes, but I don't know what it means.
Missing a file named 'start' ?
1739[20:24:10] <blackflow> no, some file accessed durign the
start task. I'm guessing, apache is not sysv init script still,
right? it's a proper systemd unit?
1740[20:24:31] <greycat> last time I checked, apache2 on debian
still has an init.d script only
1741[20:24:43] <blackflow> ugh....
1742[20:25:10] <SPF> greycat: yes I read that as well, I also
found some request for systemd scripts
1756[20:27:21] <SPF> blackflow: only one warning -> AH00558:
apache2: Could not reliably determine the server's fully
qualified domain name, using 127.0.1.1. Set the
'ServerName' directive globally to suppress this message
1757[20:27:40] <FXpro> also, if I have custom coded files I want
to copy into my app, it will not copy over. is there a work around?
1827[20:46:55] <greycat> I saw that part, but didn't trace
it any further.
1828[20:47:07] <Scriptonaut> does anyone know how to make
ssh-agent not expire/timeout? It seems to timeout by default after a
few hours
1829[20:47:19] <blackflow> I swear these systemd service files in
debian are borderline moronic. circular deps, nginx using
start-stop-daemon, uwsgi is a mess.... who is writing those
things....
1830[20:47:28] <greycat> Scriptonaut: that has not been my
experience
1831[20:47:31] <SPF> blackflow: it only says AH00558: apache2:
Could not reliably determine the server's fully qualified
domain name, using 127.0.1.1. Set the 'ServerName'
directive globally to suppress this message
1833[20:47:55] <blackflow> SPF: but is it started? ps axu | grep
apache shows stuff?
1834[20:48:29] <SPF> blackflow: oh yes, it's started now
1835[20:48:37] <Scriptonaut> greycat: I don't know why
it's doing it. I run ssh-agent, and then ssh-add, and a few
hours later when I try to push to a git repo or something it will
give me access denied (publickey). Then I run ssh-add again and it
works
1836[20:48:42] <greycat> Scriptonaut: ssh-agent(1) says "-t
life ... Without this option the default maximum lifetime is
forever."
1837[20:48:48] <blackflow> SPF: right, so there seems to be a
problem with the systemd service, either the unit file or something
else
1838[20:49:03] <Scriptonaut> ya I was just reading that it
defaults to forever, something on my machine must be changing the
default
1839[20:49:20] <greycat> Scriptonaut: also points to a config
setting in sshd_config but doesn't give the name of it
1840[20:49:27] <Scriptonaut> ah ok, I'll check that out
1843[20:49:56] <blackflow> SPF: in a bare stretch VM, default
install, apache starts fine fwiw. So it must be something about your
config there, but I'm guessing not apache config, something
else.
1844[20:50:37] <greycat> I keep thinking it's not config,
but some sort of missing/corrupted file (e.g. when I asked about
/usr/sbin/apache2 existing)
1845[20:50:41] <SPF> blackflow: is it something you can strace?
1865[20:56:22] <greycat> oh, if you haven't actually started
apache2 *successfully* since upgrading jessie->stretch then it
could indeed be a config issue
1866[20:56:44] <SPF> after upgrade after reboot, apache2 was
working normally
1867[20:57:09] *** Quits: Zvmdyv (~Zvmdyv@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
1868[20:57:10] <SPF> but I do update the apache2 config from time
to time
1869[20:57:10] <greycat> So... you upgraded, rebooted, it was
working, then you rebooted a second time, and now it's not?
1870[20:57:17] <SPF> greycat: exactly
1871[20:57:21] <blackflow> I don't think the problem is in
apache, but sure, you could try purge and reinstall.
1891[21:03:19] <jelly> so all the threads (or processes,
depending on mpm used) got stuck and did not close the tcp
connection properly, and the parent got to the limit and did not
create more
1892[21:03:21] *** Quits: Dat (dat@replaced-ip) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
1906[21:06:21] <blackflow> SPF: any hints in dmesg or journal
from previous boot, about disk or I/O issues? grep -i "blocked
for more than 120" in /var/log/messages*
1907[21:06:24] <jelly> I'd suggest using /var/log/mail.log,
and disabling .warn .err and .info, but that's not the cause
1908[21:07:13] <C00kie> Ok, could you tell me how to change all
to mail.log?
1955[21:19:57] <jelly> something changed it to /var/log/maillog,
that's not default on Debian. So you can change it, but you
might have something else on your system expecting the non-default
path.
1956[21:20:03] <C00kie> I've chaged it in the rsyslog.conf
to /var/log/mail.log
1972[21:24:40] <blackflow> SPF: sorry then, not sure what else to
check. you could try (re)starting the service again, and pastebin
full journal, last, say, 50 entries.
1983[21:28:41] <jelly> C00kie: and output of
"fail2ban-client status" for sanity
1984[21:29:03] <C00kie> Status |- Number of jail: 3 `- Jail list:
postfix, sasl, ssh
1985[21:30:20] <SPF> blackflow: there's nothing written to
journal matching *apache* while apache2 was started using workaround
1986[21:30:49] <jelly> C00kie: so the right one is called [sasl]
on jessie as well. You can disable the [postfix] one and let's
see why the right one does not work
1987[21:30:58] <C00kie> k
1988[21:31:28] <blackflow> SPF: can you pastebin the entire
journal, no matches, no filters? last say 50 entries with -n 50
1989[21:31:45] <blackflow> SPF: in particular I'm curious if
anything else is logged before that "file not found"
1990[21:31:49] <SPF> blackflow: it's much bigger than that
1991[21:32:02] <C00kie> Status |- Number of jail: 2 `- Jail list:
sasl, ssh
1992[21:32:13] <jelly> okay
1993[21:32:28] <jelly> C00kie: care to paste some grep 'SASL
LOGIN authentication failed:' /var/log/maiol
1994[21:32:31] <jelly> argh.
1995[21:32:33] <SPF> -n 1000 will capture all lines since apache2
manual start
1996[21:32:38] <jelly> C00kie: care to paste some grep 'SASL
LOGIN authentication failed:' /var/log/mail.log
1997[21:33:01] <blackflow> SPF: I don't care about that,
only about logs created between you hit <enter> and that error
messge came out
1998[21:33:06] <blackflow> if there are any
1999[21:33:18] <jelly> or even grep 'SASL .* authentication
failed:' /var/log/mail.log
2003[21:36:57] <jelly> C00kie: well that looks about the same as
mine
2004[21:37:12] <jelly> same IP addresses even
2005[21:37:20] <blackflow> SPF: first of all, move that ssh to a
nonstandard port asap and disable password authentication
completely. second, yeah there's nothing else there relevant.
I'm sorry I have no idea what could be wrong. I don't
think it's apache. third..... that _is_ a public server, so
consider not running one until you're familiar with all the
important parts of it.
2006[21:37:26] <C00kie> lol
2007[21:37:57] <jelly> C00kie: what does "uname -a"
say, is this a physical system, a VM or a physical machine?
2008[21:38:15] <C00kie> its a (v)root from netcup.de
2027[21:42:10] <C00kie> after changing all to mail.log an
deactivating postfix it seems to wirk now
2028[21:42:13] <blackflow> a waste of icmp :)
2029[21:42:24] <C00kie> *work
2030[21:42:59] <C00kie> -A fail2ban-sasl -s 181.214.206.84/32 -j
REJECT --reject-with icmp-port-unreachable -A fail2ban-sasl -s
181.214.206.87/32 -j REJECT --reject-with icmp-port-unreachable
2031[21:43:08] <jelly> C00kie: yes, it looks like it works
2032[21:43:18] <C00kie> i don't know why but it works.
2033[21:43:23] <C00kie> Thanks a lot :-)
2034[21:43:31] <jelly> perhaps it reads the right log
2035[21:43:36] <SPF> blackflow: I do disable root ssh access, and
use fail2ban with 24h ban. regarding the port, I visited many
premises where port 22 was one of the few ports allowed
2042[21:44:17] <C00kie> Thank you very much for your help. :-)
2043[21:44:25] <C00kie> i ve sitting here 4 hours
2044[21:44:35] <C00kie> and the solution is so easy xD
2045[21:44:53] <C00kie> There logfiles drives me crazy
2046[21:45:00] <C00kie> *These
2047[21:45:22] <jelly> it would be better if you figured out what
changed the path for mail.* log file in the first place
2048[21:45:59] <C00kie> I dont have to do this. I'll move to
new hardware nex week xD
2049[21:46:21] <C00kie> then time for fresh install xD
2050[21:46:23] <jelly> maybe it's your provider's crazy
template. Maybe you have some sort of weird control panel software
that absolutely relies on redhattish maillog without a dot
2156[23:37:41] *** Quits: ardualabs (~poot@replaced-ip) (Remote host closed the connection)
2157[23:38:24] <EdePopede> is there a newer live disc than 9.5
(files in /boot from the day after independence day)? just curious
if they changed something around lockscreen and user password. just
had to google it again...
2160[23:40:07] <Tenkawa> Anyone know much about the realtek
rtsx_usb driver that likes to corrupt microsd cards ?
2161[23:41:01] <EdePopede> Akuw: depends on the problem. non
working passwords -> change with root, non working root password
-> login directly into root shell, damaged fs on the partition
-> 2 of the tools from gr security helped me out on 2 different
occasions (worked on the copy of an dd image of course)
2162[23:41:15] <Tenkawa> (contents... not the card itself of
course)
2163[23:42:44] <Tenkawa> even mounting read only you cant read
the data (on a fat/exfat/ntfs filesystem) although soon as you
reboot it to win10 or use the card on another machine the data is
still there
2164[23:43:30] <Tenkawa> if it gets mounted read write or
fsck'ed then its hit/miss if it even survives at all