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10 [00:03:39] <EdePopede> i could just need a bit of a big
picture right now. apt-cache shows me 2 available versions of nginx:
1.10.3-1+deb9u2 and deb9u1. apt-get -s install prefers u2. judd has
u1 in stretch, u2 in proposed-updates and security.
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12 [00:04:03] <EdePopede> so 1) what's the logic behind it
and 2) how do i get more info locally?
13 [00:04:33] <petn-randall> ,v nginx
14 [00:04:34] <judd> Package: nginx on amd64 -- wheezy:
1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4; wheezy-security: 1.2.1-2.2+wheezy4+deb7u1;
jessie: 1.6.2-5+deb8u5; sid: 1.10.1-1; jessie-backports:
1.10.3-1+deb9u1~bpo8+2; stretch: 1.10.3-1+deb9u1;
stretch-proposed-updates: 1.10.3-1+deb9u2; stretch-security:
1.10.3-1+deb9u2; stretch-backports: 1.13.3-1~bpo9+1;
stretch-backports: 1.14.0-1~bpo9+1; stretch-backports:
15 [00:04:35] <judd> 1.14.1-1~bpo9+1; buster: 1.14.2-2; sid:
1.14.2-2
16 [00:05:15] <rant> EdePopede: you have the stretch version and
the security update available
17 [00:05:28] <petn-randall> EdePopede: `apt-cache policy nginx`
will show you which package will be preferred during installation,
and where they come from. u2 is from stretch-security, btw.
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20 [00:06:57] <EdePopede> i'm afraid i'm gonna develop
a migraine over debian's software management, there are simply
too many tools to remember
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22 [00:07:19] <EdePopede> and they all have too many commands
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25 [00:07:56] <rant> EdePopede: you realize they invented the
apt command which pretty much does it all, right?
26 [00:08:19] <EdePopede> i used it *once* and then it
didn't keep the deb :(
27 [00:08:22] <frikinz> It's way easier that other distro
IMO. But you don't learn things in a week.
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29 [00:09:09] <EdePopede> week? i try to memorize those things
for MONTH now, before the upgrade i stayed with aptitude's ui
mostly to keep it easy
30 [00:09:20] <rant> yeah.. its annoying like that.. does a lot
of stuff automatically
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32 [00:10:17] <EdePopede> but it feels like when i tried to get
through bertrand russel's book where he mentions a new
philosopher or some long forgotten city on every bloody page :|
33 [00:10:24] <frikinz> I used apt a lot then aptitude a lot but
yeah, it had phases were it would do too many things ... like
proposing you to uninstall the package you just requested to install
XD
34 [00:11:01] <rant> could be worse.. Long Walk To Freedom had
some african word every 3rd word..
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36 [00:11:33] <EdePopede> my problem with bare cli is that i
can't go with just text output floating by. mc instead of
ls/rm/mv/mkdir and such things....
37 [00:11:35] <petn-randall> EdePopede: It helps taking notes if
you can't easily remember commands / parameters and stuff.
38 [00:11:50] <petn-randall> EdePopede: I do it for a lot of
things I only touch once or twice a year.
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40 [00:12:21] <EdePopede> petn-randall: that's the thing
atm, i try to rearrange this thing, some cli fed wiki or something
41 [00:12:45] <EdePopede> and i always have been on war with
names of any kind
42 [00:12:59] <rant> are you familiar with apropos?
43 [00:13:11] <EdePopede> imagine your brain filled up with
stacks of boxes with no label on them
44 [00:13:23] <frikinz> Is that for professional or personnal
projects?
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46 [00:13:37] <EdePopede> rant: that's the opposite
approach from what i've need :/
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49 [00:14:17] <EdePopede> frikinz: atm only for arranging stuff.
taking notes. making those little cards. putting them into some
context
50 [00:15:23] <EdePopede> i tried to manage a tree of markdown
files with make, compiling them and putting them into the doctree,
but meh
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52 [00:16:11] <EdePopede> and i tried some wikis in the past,
but don't ask me... for their names
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55 [00:17:22] <EdePopede> and i really prefer to do it in the
shell, have a script around the editor, save, leave, and then a
quick upgrade.
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57 [00:18:17] <frikinz> notes are nice for things you don't
do often or which are very obscure but practice is important. and
reading docs, manpages.
58 [00:18:36] <EdePopede> actually i was only trying to see the
tags for a webserver to get a list of options then
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62 [00:20:20] <frikinz> Don't be too impatient also.
It's not just point and click. Go progressively.
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64 [00:21:12] <EdePopede> frikinz: i never used a shell but bash
on a regular base. sure, i looked into zsh, csh years ago. but what
did i try recently to avoid an arbitrary variable for read? i tried
using $_. took me some time to remember that in bash it was $REPLY.
names, remember?
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67 [00:21:52] <EdePopede> frikinz: the boxes, remember?
that's f'n annoying after all these years.
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74 [00:23:31] <EdePopede> and man pages... like nginx has
"Tag: implemented-in::c, interface::daemon, network::server,
network::service, protocol::http, role::program, use::proxying"
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78 [00:23:52] <EdePopede> and now "man debtags" for
the 180th time to look up for the syntax
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80 [00:24:27] <jmcnaught> I reread man pages all the time.
Sometimes just knowing where to look is enough.
81 [00:24:56] <rant> which is what apropos is for :P
82 [00:25:07] <frikinz> I use debtags once a year so that'd
be a candidate for notes :) not sure I wouldn't classify these
as obscure. Like a bit :)
83 [00:25:27] <rant> and what I do is write my own wrappers and
scripts for shit I know I wont remember
84 [00:25:58] <rant> then I have something I created that works
in a way that makes sense to me..
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88 [00:26:32] <rant> when I hit a limitation of that, IT becomes
my reference
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90 [00:27:19] <jmcnaught> EdePopede: you might like ikiwiki,
it's a lot like what you described of keeping a tree of
markdown files and compiling them
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94 [00:27:59] <EdePopede> jmcnaught: now that you mentioned it,
iki is one of those i did use in the past
95 [00:28:08] <frikinz> I use cherrytree but its so looking like
80s and not easily convertible.
96 [00:28:10] <EdePopede> nope: debtags cat
'network::server && protocol::http &&
role::program'
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98 [00:28:52] <EdePopede> i used cherrytree for some time, but i
really prefer some file based approach
99 [00:29:19] <EdePopede> i tend to reorganize things sometimes
and i live in mc :>
100 [00:29:20] <frikinz> Yeah but I have several hundreds by now.
What a mess
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102 [00:30:02] <EdePopede> this one: debtags search
'network::server && protocol::http &&
role::program'
103 [00:30:58] <frikinz> I live in ranger or just zsh
104 [00:31:09] <frikinz> anyway, back to discoverying redmine
installation
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106 [00:31:35] <frikinz> o/ good luck ;p
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108 [00:31:53] <EdePopede> thanks for you too
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110 [00:32:33] <EdePopede> rant: guess what my problem with
wrapper scripts (or functions) is
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112 [00:34:15] <EdePopede> really have to read that one
replaced-url
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115 [00:34:37] <joepublic> Instead of writing wrappers, I usually
write a script whose name I will probably try first that tells me
what to actually do
116 [00:34:49] <joepublic> years of writing wrappers, I
didn't learn much
117 [00:35:06] <EdePopede> the perfect approach for me, one topic
in depth
118 [00:35:10] <rant> ffmpeg is one that was way too damn
complicated for me.. so I wrote a wrapper script with defaults for
it
119 [00:36:33] <EdePopede>
find-a-name-for-your-wrapper-mini-HOWTO
120 [00:36:39] <EdePopede> problem #1
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123 [00:37:16] <rant> heh.. I often have issues with naming
things.. even vars when programming
124 [00:37:19] <bites> <command>-wrapper#.sh
125 [00:37:23] <EdePopede> and then after 2 weeks i usually have
to look into .bash_aliases or /usr/local/bin (being the only user
here)
126 [00:37:23] <bites> zsh has better completion than bash.
<command> -<tab> shows a list of options with
description for example. it helps a bit.
127 [00:37:48] <EdePopede> youtube-dl has such a file for bash
128 [00:37:52] <rant> I was for awhile writing my scripts with my
own style headers showing their function and the dependencies
129 [00:38:04] <rant> but that practice fell out of style
130 [00:38:26] <EdePopede> something like javadoc? hmm...
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133 [00:39:00] <EdePopede> have a script parsing your wrappers in
the bin and doing something like apropos for them
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136 [00:39:26] <rant> one issue I have with naming vars is that I
like things to make sense literally if I have an array of things I
don't like to call it things because things[1] doesn't
make sense like thing[1] does
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138 [00:39:47] <rant> but then iterating over thing when its
things..
139 [00:39:53] <rant> heh
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142 [00:40:05] <EdePopede> with thing from things do
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145 [00:40:08] <EdePopede> or so ;)
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147 [00:41:06] <rant> cause years ago I got to just using
alphabetical vars to avoid fretting over the names but then
following wth was going on got confusing
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151 [00:42:59] <EdePopede> just imagine you'd had to do it
in MUMPS
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186 [01:05:22] <EdePopede> > debtags search
'network::server && protocol::http &&
role::program' | column -t -c 2 -s '-'
187 [01:05:27] <EdePopede> what's wrong with this?
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189 [01:05:55] <EdePopede> or: doeas debtags(1) have a table
mode?
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199 [01:13:00] <rant> EdePopede: debtags search
'network::server && protocol::http &&
role::program' | cut -d '-' -f 2- | sed -e 's/^\
//'
200 [01:13:50] <rant> EdePopede: the sed expression is just to
remove any leading space the problem with trying to get the 2nd
field after a - delimiter is that there are often - in that text so
you need the 2nd field and anything after it
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202 [01:14:32] <EdePopede> rant: it's not about the spaces,
it splits in 5 or so columns. i know it worked in the past as i
intended
203 [01:14:40] <EdePopede> | name | explanation |
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206 [01:15:08] <rant> oh. you WANT both coloumns, just more
formatted
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208 [01:15:27] <EdePopede> could be i did a sed s/// before to
replace "-" by "°" or something
209 [01:15:43] <EdePopede> rant: i depend on data presentation
210 [01:16:26] <EdePopede> i even have problems reading here
judd's output, in the query it has at least bold names for the
distro
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212 [01:18:24] * rant shrugs
213 [01:18:38] <rant> I can do something fugly with subshells
that'll work but I dont know how to do that elegantly
214 [01:19:14] <rant> awk would be the tool to do it properly
215 [01:19:26] <EdePopede> "give me $n columns, divide at
$c"
216 [01:19:38] <EdePopede> i know. but awk, you know
217 [01:19:38] <jmcnaught> EdePopede: maybe you'll like
aptitude's formatting better. It has a ~G search filter for
debtags: aptitude search
~Gnetwork::server~Gprotocol::http~Grole::program
218 [01:20:32] <EdePopede> jmcnaught: i used aptitude with erm...
debian 7 (hint: names!). now it wasn't installed and i try to
go with the cli tools
219 [01:20:49] <jmcnaught> you can also customize the package
list with aptitude:
replaced-url
220 [01:20:59] <EdePopede> and remembering all these config
options that's again a thing...
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222 [01:21:37] <EdePopede> and the thing here is, i know i did it
before. debtags | cut
223 [01:22:03] <EdePopede> i've read man cut for maybe 10
minutes now and still can't find the option
224 [01:22:11] <EdePopede> column
225 [01:22:12] <EdePopede> not cut
226 [01:22:45] <EdePopede> -c Output is formatted for a display
columns wide
227 [01:22:50] <EdePopede> sounds clear to me
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229 [01:23:20] <rant> yeah thats the bit I dont get is that its
not limiting it to 2 cols
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232 [01:24:12] <EdePopede> do they mean "screen
columns"?
233 [01:24:21] <EdePopede> like in 80cols in VGA?
234 [01:26:07] <EdePopede> but then:
235 [01:26:09] <EdePopede> -t Determine the number of columns the
input contains and create a table.
236 [01:26:18] <EdePopede> column [-entx] [-c columns] [-s sep]
[file ...]
237 [01:26:26] <EdePopede> so "-t" takes a value?
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239 [01:27:49] <aloo_shu> or means 'guess from input'?
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242 [01:29:51] <EdePopede> # debtags search 'network::server
&& protocol::http && role::program' | column -t
2 -s '-'
243 [01:29:52] <EdePopede> Exception ignored in:
<_io.TextIOWrapper name='<stdout>'
mode='w' encoding='UTF-8'>
244 [01:29:52] <EdePopede> BrokenPipeError: [Errno 32] Broken
pipe
245 [01:29:55] <EdePopede> same with 40
246 [01:30:12] <EdePopede> so "table columns" and
"screen columns" are both wrong
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250 [01:31:21] <EdePopede> that's exactly why i want such
things written down. try&error until it works, save it to a
notepad or something and then c&p from there.
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259 [01:34:59] <rant> EdePopede: debtags search
'network::server && protocol::http &&
role::program' | awk 'BEGIN { FS = " - ";
format="%-20s %60s\n" }; {printf format, $1, $2}'
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263 [01:35:33] <rant> debtags search 'network::server
&& protocol::http && role::program' | awk
'BEGIN { FS = " - "; format="%-20s %60s\n";
printf format, "Name", "Desc"; printf
format,"----","----" }; {printf format, $1,
$2}'
264 [01:35:39] <EdePopede> > debtags search
'network::server && protocol::http &&
role::program' | sed -e 's/ - /|/' | column -s
'|' -t
265 [01:35:39] <rant> latter uses column headers
266 [01:35:42] <EdePopede> hail sed
267 [01:36:19] <EdePopede> when it comes to awk i just can nod
and trust you :D
268 [01:36:43] <rant> heh
269 [01:37:26] <EdePopede> the nice thing about `column` is that
per default it checks the lines for column width, so there are no
surprises
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271 [01:37:56] <EdePopede> i'd only use "%-60§
272 [01:38:10] <EdePopede> s/§/s/
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274 [01:39:18] <rant> ah I didnt notice I was missing the - in
%-60s
275 [01:39:32] <rant> was wondering wth that column was justified
wrong :P
276 [01:39:53] <EdePopede> half an hour for something which
should need half a minute -.-
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278 [01:40:54] <rant> yeah but you could just take the awk line
and save it to /usr/local/bin/dashcol or something :P
279 [01:41:10] <rant> then you got a program that formats output
seperated by a dash to columns
280 [01:41:13] <EdePopede> wondering if i could install
doc-central and somehow implement my notes
281 [01:41:39] <EdePopede> i'd prefer to have my local
version of sth like greg's wiki
282 [01:41:49] <rant> really that's still problematic as its
using " - " for the FS rather than matching the first one
only
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286 [01:42:40] <EdePopede> that's why i usually prefer gnu.
they have the habit to implement useful extensions
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288 [01:43:28] <EdePopede> rant: do you really expect me to
remember "dashcol" in 2 weeks from now? ;)
289 [01:44:17] <rant> idk I find it easy enough to know all my
custom shit is in /usr/local/bin and just look there for crap I know
I did already :P
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291 [01:45:39] <rant> I used to use my own shebang style headers
like say #$ for the description or #@ for the programs it depends on
and such.. then I could make my own tool to search those headers
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294 [01:46:41] <rant> I usually only listed depends not part of
the base
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296 [01:47:53] <rant> I also sometimes write my scripts,
especially those in /usr/local/sbin/ to hook custom items in
~/.local/bin or such
297 [01:48:19] <EdePopede> markdown has such a simple systems, 3
lines: title, author, date. maybe some awk... und as for deps, only
direct ones are interresting. feed it to dot and let it create an
SVG
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300 [01:49:46] <EdePopede> i like to keep things safe. though
i'm the only user here i don't rely on things i have in
$HOME ;)
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308 [01:52:50] <cluelessperson> so, on boot, I'd like the
system to ask a user for a decryption passphrase to decrypt their
home directory and login, what do you suggest?
309 [01:52:59] <cluelessperson> but, in this case, let's say
the user has never existed before
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313 [01:55:48] <Nixmeister>
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359 [02:36:48] <acidtripper> Hi there
360 [02:37:10] <acidtripper> somebody know which version of kde
will be included on debian 10 "buster"?
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365 [02:46:40] <woenx> nope
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391 [03:04:43] <well_laid_lawn> !kde
392 [03:04:43] <dpkg> KDE software is based on the Qt toolkit.
See
replaced-url
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404 [03:15:57] <themill> AciD`: very likely the one that is
currently there
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408 [03:18:00] <cluelessperson> how do I learn about how debian
starts up?
409 [03:18:03] <cluelessperson> step by step?
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411 [03:18:19] <cluelessperson> bios, bootloader, kernel
412 [03:18:29] <cluelessperson> how is, /proc /sys /boot mounted
and what are they used for
413 [03:19:24] <cluelessperson> I'm starting from here:
replaced-url
414 [03:19:32] <cluelessperson> and here:
replaced-url
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440 [03:40:14] <acidtripper> Somebody having with debian 9.7 the
iwlwifi driver error?
441 [03:40:29] <acidtripper> "Failed to load
iwlwifi-8000C-26.ucode"
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446 [03:49:14] <Deihmos> i created a folder in /mnt/
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448 [03:49:42] <Deihmos> i changed ownership of the folder to my
account but when I mount a usb drive the ownership changes to root
449 [03:49:55] <Deihmos> when i unmount the drive it changes back
to my user account.
450 [03:50:28] <acidtripper> hhehe Deihmos with which user are
you mounting?
451 [03:50:30] <themill> Deihmos: what filesystem is on this usb
drive?
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455 [03:51:19] <Deihmos> default user. not sure what you call it.
ntfs usb drive. same process works fine on ubuntu
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457 [03:51:34] <themill> !ntfsrw
458 [03:51:35] <dpkg> NTFS-3G is a userspace driver providing
NTFS read and write support. "aptitude install ntfs-3g".
Usage examples:
replaced-url
459 [03:51:42] <themill> !user accessible ntfs
460 [03:51:42] <dpkg> To get an NTFS or VFAT file system
accessible by users and groups on the local machine, man mount; man
5 fstab; and read about the umask, fmask, dmask, uid, and gid
options. You'll end up sticking something like
conv=auto,uid=<user>,gid=<group>,dmask=0002,fmask=0003
into your fstab's mount option field.
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463 [03:52:03] <acidtripper> default user? Deihmos there not such
user
464 [03:52:09] <acidtripper> tell me the username
465 [03:52:13] <acidtripper> $whoami
466 [03:52:30] <acidtripper>
replaced-url
467 [03:52:35] <acidtripper> google doesn't bite
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469 [03:53:14] <acidtripper> you have to specify when mounting
which user you want to use+
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471 [03:53:45] <Deihmos> ntfs support isn't included by
default?
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474 [03:54:15] <acidtripper> what distro are you using?
475 [03:54:20] <acidtripper> debian stable or ubuntu?
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477 [03:54:26] <Deihmos> actually the drive can be read so
that's not the issue. when it mounts i had to change user again
478 [03:54:28] <themill> Deihmos: there are about 40k packages
that are not included by default
479 [03:54:47] <acidtripper> read the link i sent you
480 [03:54:50] <Deihmos> debian stable
481 [03:54:55] <acidtripper> you have to specify user in mount
line
482 [03:54:57] <Deihmos> i also have ubuntu server
483 [03:54:57] <acidtripper> or in fstab
484 [03:55:06] <themill> Deihmos: you need to set the mount
option to give the user the permissions you desire
485 [03:55:06] <Deihmos> oh
486 [03:55:28] <Deihmos> thought it would be the same as in
ubuntu
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489 [03:55:40] <acidtripper> ubuntu is for lamers :P
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492 [03:56:05] <acidtripper> and as i see on my pc... i have
installed debian-with non free firmware.. and ntfs-3g is installed
by default
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494 [03:56:10] <themill> Deihmos: are you actually running
'mount' or something else?
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500 [03:58:15] <acidtripper> does somebody have the iwlwifi-8000c
missing firmware when booting?
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504 [03:59:41] <Deihmos> UUID=1CFA6A8CFA6 /mnt/medialibrary auto
nosuid,nodev,nofail,x-gvfs-show 0 0
505 [03:59:55] <Deihmos> that's what i use with ubuntu.
wouldn't it be the same?
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508 [04:00:51] <themill> Deihmos: how are you actually mounting
it though?
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512 [04:01:29] <Deihmos> I mounted it manually. sudo mount
UID=1CFA6A8CFA6 /mnt/medialibrary
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516 [04:03:07] <themill> in both places? Nothing there has given
any sort of permission mapping
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518 [04:03:30] <themill> (it's possible ubuntu gives members
of some group access by default, no idea)
519 [04:06:33] <acidtripper> add user
520 [04:06:37] <acidtripper> in that seb
521 [04:06:40] <acidtripper> sentence
522 [04:07:00] <acidtripper> have you read the url i sent you?
523 [04:07:02] <acidtripper> ....
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525 [04:08:07] <themill> acidtripper: I think it's fairly
obvious that they have, yes.
526 [04:08:45] <acidtripper> mmm... he's not adding a vital
option... that was in that url that's why i doubt
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529 [04:09:21] <Deihmos> reading it now
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531 [04:09:55] <Deihmos> in ubuntu i use the same thing no
issues. about to try it now
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554 [04:37:38] <cluelessperson> Deihmos: you'll want to set
it so it mounts as user owned
555 [04:38:13] <Deihmos> installing ntfs-3g solved the issue
556 [04:38:26] <Deihmos> i did the minimum install. maybe it
wasn't included
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560 [04:41:42] <acidtripper> hehe :D
561 [04:41:48] <acidtripper> cool you could solve it Deihmos
562 [04:42:18] <Deihmos> lol
563 [04:42:22] <acidtripper> in ntfs-3g changing umask let you
read read/write as user or root
564 [04:42:27] <acidtripper> there was some setting about it
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930 [10:09:33] <Skandalist> Is it possible to merge correctly bin
CD image files in Debian?
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994 [10:45:19] <rant> Skandalist: I suppose so, if you were to
elaborate
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1076 [11:32:40] <wrksx> hello guys
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1078 [11:33:26] <wrksx> There's an already running process on
my box (rsync), it's been running for quite a while and
I'd like to know the time it will exit at.
1079 [11:34:03] <oo_miguel> I wonder why I get only 50Mb/s when
using scp over a 1gbit connection. any suggestions how to
troubleshoot this ?
1080 [11:34:05] <wrksx> What can I do to somehow
'monitor' the process and detect when it exits to register
the time ?
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1089 [11:35:54] <__m4ch1n3__> wrksx, next time run "rsync
--progress"
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1092 [11:36:16] <rant> wrksx: you could perhaps attach say strace
followed by a timestamp program
1093 [11:36:19] <wrksx> __m4ch1n3__, lol
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1095 [11:36:34] <rant> wrksx: i.e. strace -p 1234; date >
timestampfile
1096 [11:36:36] <wrksx> rant, thx I'll look into rtrace,
dunno about it
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1098 [11:36:51] <wrksx> strace =)
1099 [11:36:54] <rant> the strace will detach when process dies
and shell will then execute the next command
1100 [11:37:12] <wrksx> nice idea
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1102 [11:37:30] <wrksx> ty
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1105 [11:38:15] <rant> or you could kill it now and restart it
with a progress option
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1107 [11:38:22] <rant> rsync is designed to be interrupted and
resume
1108 [11:38:50] <rant> there will be some overhead while it
figures out where it left off
1109 [11:39:26] <rant> but as for the generic solution, this is
the way you think on linux.. :P
1110 [11:39:36] <__m4ch1n3__> echo 'alias rsync="rsync
--progress" >> ~/.bashrc
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1113 [11:40:55] <wrksx> I'm not looking for a progress
option, but thanks
1114 [11:41:27] <__m4ch1n3__> time left == progress
1115 [11:41:46] <wrksx> I'm not looking for the time left
either
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1117 [11:42:02] <__m4ch1n3__> oh ok
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1121 [11:42:16] <rant> well if you just want to know when it
finishes my solution or anything that'll attach to the process
and die with it will work
1122 [11:42:28] <wrksx> I just wanted to know what time did the
process exit when I get back
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1124 [11:42:47] <wrksx> rant, yeah that's exactly the kind of
thing I wanted to try out
1125 [11:42:58] <wrksx> to try. period
1126 [11:43:01] <wrksx> =)
1127 [11:43:03] <rant> test it on something like sleep or
something
1128 [11:43:09] <rant> make sure it works
1129 [11:43:11] <wrksx> I wiil
1130 [11:43:24] <n4dir> well you could to somethink like rsync ...
&& date; i guess
1131 [11:43:30] <wrksx> once I'll get it installed =)
it's not here
1132 [11:43:51] <FinalX> wrksx: there's no way of displaying
the status of a running rsync, and for new rsyncs there's not
really a proper gauge to see how it's doing on an overall
basis. you could restart with increased verbosity and it'll
tell you which files it has already done, and how much are left in
the directories it already readdir()d, but not dirs it hasn't
done that for yet.
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1135 [11:44:28] <rant> well there are other utils that will attach
themselves but strace was the first that came to mind other than xev
1136 [11:44:29] <wrksx> Thx FinalX but I'm NOT looking for
progress or status
1137 [11:44:39] <FinalX> same thing with stracing it, you have no
idea where it is. it might've started at the dir that's
last in the alphabet and then go do m, then a, then back to x, etc.
1138 [11:44:58] <wrksx> Dude read the conversation
1139 [11:45:13] <FinalX> yeah, I did. started with your comment.
1140 [11:45:23] <rant> FinalX: yeah you're way off base.. the
point is to timestamp it exiting.. the strace is only to hook when
it exits
1141 [11:45:25] <wrksx> I don't care what is it doing I want
to know when it exits, that's all
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1143 [11:45:37] <rant> when it exits, strace exits, then it can
run date for the timestamp
1144 [11:46:16] <rant> this is barring any sort of elaborate
process accounting
1145 [11:46:31] <rant> which is available but more cumbersome to
setup for a one time use
1146 [11:47:16] <rant> really you may want to run strace with
options to limit its output and polling
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1148 [11:47:23] <rant> since you dont care about that anyhow
1149 [11:48:08] <wrksx> rant, exactly but that shouldn't be
hard I guess, just reading the man atm
1150 [11:48:22] <FinalX>
replaced-url
1151 [11:48:35] <rant> strace is nice to have when you got issues
that go beyond what logs, stdout, stderr will tell you
1152 [11:48:58] <FinalX> and if it's not just for this
running process, just && date >> /path/to/whatever.log
1153 [11:49:04] <FinalX> (for the next iteration)
1154 [11:49:10] <wrksx> FinalX, thank you very much Final,
I've found what I need
1155 [11:49:25] <wrksx> It's a one time thing
1156 [11:49:40] <rant> I'd vote for strace to be included in
standard system utils
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1158 [11:49:51] <rant> rather than an optional thing :P
1159 [11:50:16] <wrksx> I agree, 533 kB seems affordable nowadays
1160 [11:50:40] <rant> there are lots of things that are nice to
have when SHTF that people dont have when they need them
1161 [11:51:22] <wrksx> maybe strace is a bit overkill for that
usage =)
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1163 [11:52:15] <rant> yeah its a tad overkill.. just the first
thing that came to mind
1164 [11:52:28] <rant> I most often run it only showing open calls
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1170 [11:56:42] <wrksx> I tried strace -qq but it still prints
some stuff... nevermind it'll do for my simple job
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1203 [12:10:05] <rant> wrksx: you apparently didnt read that
manual well :P -e none
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1206 [12:10:16] <rant> wrksx: strace -p <pid> -e none
1207 [12:10:32] <rant> will print nothing but the
attachment/detachment of the trace type stuff
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1210 [12:11:47] <rant> the -q options only control those
messages.. the ones from strace itself, not the ones from the
attached process
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1222 [12:23:57] <JustASlacker> is there an easy way to go back a
package version?
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1224 [12:24:10] <JustASlacker> I just got php-redis 4.2 but I need
4.1 for reasons
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1228 [12:28:15] <themill> !snapshots
1229 [12:28:15] <dpkg>
replaced-url
1230 [12:28:18] <themill> but also
1231 [12:28:21] <themill> !downgrade
1232 [12:28:21] <dpkg> Downgrading is not, nor will ever be
supported by apt. Programs change their data in a way that
can't be rolled back, and package maintainer scripts support
upgrades to new config file formats but not downgrades. Try:
"dpkg -i olderversion.deb" or "aptitude install
package=version" using "apt-cache policy package" to
get the old version number. See also <partial downgrade>,
<unstable->testing>, <sdo>.
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1248 [12:38:38] <JustASlacker> thx
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1278 [12:52:39] <coltkirk> i was told Debian was named after the
inspiration of Ted Debiase, professional wrestling's
'million dollar man,' in efforts to create the
'million dollar distrobution'
1279 [12:53:05] <coltkirk> sorry i had to say that. it popped into
my head
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1283 [12:53:40] <a__pi> The Debian project founded on 1993 by Ian
Murdock was named that way because of the three first letters of his
wife’s name Deborah and his own name Ian Debian.
1284 [12:53:51] *** Joins: n_1-c_k (~nick@replaced-ip )
1285 [12:54:09] <jelly> coltkirk: "had to?" Might want
to work on impulse control, lack of it can lead to problems!
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1287 [12:54:23] *** Joins: jubo2 (~juboxi@replaced-ip )
1288 [12:54:37] <coltkirk> i fancy myself funny some times
1289 [12:55:17] <jelly> conservative estimates value the work put
into debian at around 1 billion, so a thousand teds
1290 [12:55:32] *** Joins: citypw (~citypw@replaced-ip )
1291 [12:56:02] *** Joins: FightingFalcon (FightingFa@replaced-ip )
1292 [12:56:36] <FightingFalcon> how am i supposed to install the
latest stable version of certbot on debian?
1293 [12:56:55] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
1294 [12:58:23] <bites> if you are worried about ACME TLS-SNI-01
reaching eol, you can use certbot from backports.
1295 [12:58:28] <bites> ,v certbot
1296 [12:58:29] <judd> Package: certbot on amd64 --
jessie-backports: 0.10.2-1~bpo8+1; stretch: 0.10.2-1;
stretch-backports: 0.28.0-1~bpo9+1; stretch-proposed-updates:
0.28.0-1~deb9u1; stretch-updates: 0.28.0-1~deb9u1; buster: 0.28.0-1;
sid: 0.28.0-1
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1306 [13:01:02] <FightingFalcon> umm didnt understand
1307 [13:01:15] <FightingFalcon> i added backports repo to
sources.list
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1310 [13:01:23] <FightingFalcon> but certbot is still 0.10 version
1311 [13:01:50] <bites> you can find instructions here:
replaced-url
1312 [13:02:06] <FightingFalcon> apt-get -t stretch-backports
install "package"
1313 [13:02:14] <FightingFalcon> here what shall i write instead
of "package"?
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1315 [13:02:26] <bites> the name of the package.
1316 [13:02:33] *** Quits: rpifan_ (~rpifan@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
1317 [13:02:43] <FightingFalcon> and in my case?
1318 [13:02:48] <bites> certbot
1319 [13:02:49] *** Joins: rpifan (~rpifan@replaced-ip )
1320 [13:02:58] <FightingFalcon> apt-get -t stretch-backports
install certbot
1321 [13:03:06] <FightingFalcon> right? and this will install the
latest version?
1322 [13:03:16] <bites> make sure to run apt update after you
change your sources.
1323 [13:03:38] <jelly> FightingFalcon: don't forget to
apt-get update before that
1324 [13:03:42] * jelly slow
1325 [13:03:43] <FightingFalcon> i did that thanks
1326 [13:04:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1555
1327 [13:04:11] <Phizzy> I moved our communal PC back to
Debian.org Stable, after a brief trial of
"unstable/testing". It's runnning perfectly now!
1328 [13:04:13] <jelly> use "atp-cache policy
packagename" to see which versions are available from repos
configured and enabled
1329 [13:04:54] <Phizzy> I used
replaced-url
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1333 [13:06:29] <FightingFalcon> I have 7 certificates, first one
is renewed. But the others are NOT. Timeout during connect (likely
firewall problem) is the error
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1351 [13:20:31] <murii> does anyone know if an user has a limit on
how many threads it can spawn at once?
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1354 [13:20:54] <murii> how how many threads an application can
have at once
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1358 [13:22:36] <BCMM> murii: it is possible to limit how many
threads a user can have, but there is no limit by default in debian.
in bash, you can type `ulimit` to view your current limits.
1359 [13:22:51] <murii> ok
1360 [13:22:53] <murii> I'll do that now
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1362 [13:23:09] <murii> BCMM: I get unlimited
1363 [13:23:15] <murii> this means the default hasn't been
alterated?
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1367 [13:24:55] <BCMM> actually i'm a bit confused about
ulimit invocation...
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1369 [13:25:11] <BCMM> i'm not sure exactly what it does when
invoked without parameters
1370 [13:25:22] <murii> I also ran ulimit -a
1371 [13:25:38] <BCMM> ah yeah, that's probably the command
you want
1372 [13:25:59] <BCMM> i mis-remembered and thought that was the
default
1373 [13:26:22] <murii> thanks
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1375 [13:26:58] <BCMM> i get "max user processes (-u)
46797" - i would assume that threads count as processes for
this purpose
1376 [13:27:08] *** Joins: MenschZwoNull (~MenschZwo@replaced-ip )
1377 [13:27:30] <e> yes
1378 [13:27:31] *** Joins: elkalamar (~elkalamar@replaced-ip )
1379 [13:27:41] *** Joins: LeFnorZ (~FnorZ@replaced-ip )
1380 [13:28:50] <BCMM> incidentally, does anybody know of a
standalone equivalent to the ulimit shell builtin?
1381 [13:28:58] <e> prlimit
1382 [13:29:01] <FightingFalcon> How come certbot updates 1st
certificate but the rest cannot be updated due to a timeout error?
1383 [13:29:17] <BCMM> e: thanks! i've been looking for that
for ages
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1387 [13:30:23] <BCMM> for some reason every example i've
been able to find of how to launch an application with a memory
limit (for applications prone to memory leaking) have involved
spawning a superfluous shell
1388 [13:30:41] <wrksx> rant, thank for the tip, it was kinda hard
to tell from the wording in the manual.
1389 [13:31:25] *** Quits: OS-36013 (~OS-36013@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
1390 [13:31:45] <e> np :) i think i discovered prlimit by wanting
to change the limits for a process that already existed
1391 [13:31:48] *** Joins: OS-36013 (~OS-36013@replaced-ip )
1392 [13:32:11] <e> it turned out the process in question cached
the limit value on startup so it didn't fix my problem, but at
least i learned something
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1406 [13:44:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1562
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1414 [13:49:38] <jelly> BCMM: or softlimit from daemontools
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1416 [13:49:56] *** Joins: redcheckers (~gentoo-ir@replaced-ip )
1417 [13:50:27] <jelly> BCMM: and you can exec whatever at the end
of your shell wrapper to get rid of the shell process
1418 [13:50:47] <BCMM> jelly: thanks
1419 [13:50:48] *** Joins: gintonyc (~gintonyc_@replaced-ip )
1420 [13:51:17] <redcheckers> I tried installing xen using the
guide, but when i boot i get a black screen issue. I previously had
the same issue with the regular kernel and had to put '
nomodeset ' in my grub cfg. however when attempting the same
with the pre-generated debian xen entry, it gives me an error
message about a module. Do I put such options somewhere else? or
what do i need to do
1421 [13:51:28] <jelly> limits are inherited from parent, so any
other tool will also basically be a wrapper
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1437 [13:58:09] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: You need to install the
new certbot from stretch-updates.
1438 [13:58:37] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: (Probably)
1439 [13:58:38] <FightingFalcon> karlpinc, i did, version is 0.28
1440 [13:58:54] <FightingFalcon> i have 7 certificaes, 4 of them
could be upgraded. but the rest cannot be
1441 [13:58:56] *** Quits: gm152 (coffee@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1442 [14:00:28] *** Quits: Brigo (~Brigo@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1443 [14:00:30] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Can you pastebin the
command and output?
1444 [14:01:11] *** Joins: Brigo (~Brigo@replaced-ip )
1445 [14:01:30] <FightingFalcon>
replaced-url
1446 [14:02:53] <wrksx> !paste
1447 [14:02:53] <dpkg> Do not paste more than 2 lines to this
channel. Instead, use for text:
replaced-url
1448 [14:04:50] *** Joins: CrystalMath (~coderain@replaced-ip )
1449 [14:05:28] *** Quits: g0t11_ (~live@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1450 [14:05:50] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Well, it says the
certbot server cannot connect to your server. There's (usually)
somewhere in your webserver's document root a directory that
certbot uses for this. The certbot server must be able to connect
with http to the domain's webserver and get a file. This is all
setup in the config so you should be able to look at the config and
see what the URL is and see if you can connect to it. Also check
your webserver
1451 [14:05:50] <karlpinc> logs.
1452 [14:06:23] <FightingFalcon> karlpinc, how come it connects to
4 of them but not 3?
1453 [14:06:39] <karlpinc> If it's timing out then the
webserver is not listening or a firewall is blocking.
1454 [14:07:01] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Because the 4 are
different from the 3. Somehow.
1455 [14:07:04] <wrksx> ohoh
1456 [14:07:06] <FightingFalcon> So you mean nginx MUST be
working?
1457 [14:07:07] *** Joins: uniqdom (~uniqdom@replaced-ip )
1458 [14:07:11] <wrksx> ohohohohoh
1459 [14:07:17] *** Parts: uniqdom (~uniqdom@replaced-ip ) ()
1460 [14:07:53] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Some webserver.
(Assuming you've configured certbot to validate via http, which
is typical.)
1461 [14:08:20] *** Joins: wredny (red@replaced-ip )
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1471 [14:12:54] <FightingFalcon> karlpinc, i have to setup NGINX
to work with cerbot?
1472 [14:13:04] <JustASlacker> no, any webserver will do
1473 [14:13:10] *** Quits: conta (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
1474 [14:13:43] <FightingFalcon> it doesnt WORK when nginx is
running. When its running it says: Attempting to renew cert
(paganx.org) from /etc/letsencrypt/renewal/paganx.org.conf produced
an unexpected error: Problem binding to port 80: Could not bind to
IPv4 or IPv6.. Skipping.
1475 [14:14:08] *** Quits: dtux (~dmtucker@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1476 [14:14:11] <JustASlacker> because there is already a
webserver running
1477 [14:14:13] *** Quits: V7 (~v7@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1478 [14:14:22] <FightingFalcon> So tell me what should i do?
1479 [14:15:06] <JustASlacker> find out where in the filesystem
the following url leads to:
replaced-url
1480 [14:15:11] *** Joins: Marie-Odile (~marie-odi@replaced-ip )
1481 [14:15:35] <JustASlacker> or tell apache/nginx to use a
certain directory for that path
1482 [14:15:37] <Marie-Odile> Bonjour
1483 [14:15:45] <Marie-Odile> Transcription de
l'émission Libre à vous ! de l'April
diffusée le 22 janvier :
replaced-url
1484 [14:15:54] *** Joins: greenzap (~nova@replaced-ip )
1485 [14:15:57] <Marie-Odile> On y parle de Debian
1486 [14:16:18] *** Joins: Guest55125 (~FnorZ@replaced-ip )
1487 [14:16:24] * redcheckers wants to make the system boot right before
worrying about reading articles though
1488 [14:16:25] <SwedeMike> !fr | Marie-Odile
1489 [14:16:46] <SwedeMike> Marie-Odile: this is an english
speaking channel.
1490 [14:17:47] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon:
replaced-url
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1497 [14:18:45] <sn00ker> hi all
1498 [14:18:46] <sn00ker> Hello. I wanted to ask how you
programmed a software. So it's generally about software. So,
for example, what I mean. is it useful to make data from a table in
a loop with a sleep or just in a loop? So what is the burden on the
system more? or is the cpu bored one way or the other?
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1502 [14:19:48] <JustASlacker> why sleep?
1503 [14:20:00] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, i need to install
nginx plugin right? its a must?
1504 [14:20:07] <JustASlacker> no
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1507 [14:20:55] <sn00ker> moment, i make an example
1508 [14:21:37] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: can you show the
output of ss -tlpn | grep "*:80"
1509 [14:22:24] <sn00ker> JustASlacker,
replaced-url
1510 [14:22:34] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, currently varnish
is running on port 80 and nginx on port 8080.. however i shut down
varnish when i try to update
1511 [14:22:39] <sn00ker> what is the cpu burdening more now?
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1515 [14:23:59] <JustASlacker> sn00ker: not much
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1517 [14:24:02] <JustASlacker> sn00ker: also
replaced-url
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1519 [14:24:28] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: well, you dont need
to shutdown varnish
1520 [14:24:48] <FightingFalcon> Then it says port 80 is taken
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1524 [14:25:31] <JustASlacker> how do you start the cert renewall?
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1527 [14:25:49] <JustASlacker> In your nginx config you can add a
location to redirect letsencrypt
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1529 [14:26:05] <JustASlacker> location ^~
/.well-known/acme-challenge/ {root /var/replaced-url
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1532 [14:26:18] <FightingFalcon> certbot renew --dry-run
1533 [14:26:26] *** Quits: monkey-b (~monkey-b@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
1534 [14:26:49] <sn00ker> JustASlacker, I am well aware of how
many cycles a cpu can handle. but without sleep and in my example,
he asks hundreds of times in the second from the ping and write this
in a file. does the system use write cycles of ssd or hdd?
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1537 [14:27:51] <JustASlacker> sn00ker: well, does it work without
the slee?
1538 [14:28:00] <avu> "a few hundred times per second"
is still nothing for a CPU
1539 [14:28:14] <avu> just look at your system load if you want to
be sure
1540 [14:28:23] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: you cant check in
/etc/letsencrypt/renewal/ how the renewal is configured
1541 [14:28:28] <sn00ker> avu ia if it ran empty it would run but
many other programs
1542 [14:28:43] <avu> I can't parse that sentence, sorry
1543 [14:28:54] <sn00ker> yes it clearly works without the sleep.
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1545 [14:29:28] <JustASlacker> then why add sleep?
1546 [14:29:38] <sn00ker> avu debian alone already consumes cycles
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1548 [14:30:18] <avu> sn00ker: as I said, look at your system load
with (h)top or something, it'll be easy to see if your script
produces more load than you'd like or not
1549 [14:30:26] <sn00ker> JustASlacker, My question was what makes
more sense. I've run several such scripts in parallel. is it
better to install sleeps or just let it run in "real time"
because the cpu eh...
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1551 [14:31:24] <JustASlacker> I would do it without sleep. think
you worry too much
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1553 [14:31:40] <sn00ker> and then ... what makes more sense .. to
write this data only in the ram or really in a file. So there are
cylcs of ssd / hdd consumed?
1554 [14:32:14] <avu> oh, now I realize who you are, sorry for
helping
1555 [14:32:48] <sn00ker> o.O what have I done?
1556 [14:33:15] *** Quits: manuelschneid3r (~manuelsch@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
1557 [14:33:46] <avu> I know you from #linux.de where you have
showed us numerous times what kinds of systems you are building.
1558 [14:34:26] *** Quits: gradio (~gradio@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
1559 [14:34:45] <sn00ker> is this forbidden?
1560 [14:35:13] <themill> asking the same thing in multiple
channels and not really listening to the answers isn't much fun
for anyone.
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1562 [14:35:23] <sn00ker> Do you know. Do not claim things against
me of which you have no knowledge. this is called reputation damage.
1563 [14:35:31] <JustASlacker> libel or slander
1564 [14:35:49] <JustASlacker> rufmord
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1566 [14:36:26] <sn00ker> thanks google says "call
murder" xD
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1571 [14:38:52] <sn00ker> themill, Yes sorrys for crossposting.
but there are only a few people with understanding and life
experience who understand and respond. most just know kick ban ..
1572 [14:39:38] <themill> Umm, there are plenty of people who
would answer a carefully researched question.
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1586 [14:44:06] <sn00ker> themill, yes ... see avu until you
realize "who" I am because .. which is just ridiculous and
childish behavior
1587 [14:44:51] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, no matter what i
do. its not working
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1589 [14:45:15] <JustASlacker> paste your
/etc/letsencrypt/renewal/ config, be sure to exclude auth
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1599 [14:50:12] <FightingFalcon>
replaced-url
1600 [14:50:21] <FightingFalcon> there are 5 files there, but all
are the same except domain name
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1613 [14:56:10] <sn00ker> does any of you have any experience with
snd_aloop?
1614 [14:56:12] <JustASlacker> yeah, its configured for standalone
1615 [14:56:15] <sn00ker>
replaced-url
1616 [14:56:24] <JustASlacker> you can shutdown varnish and try to
renew
1617 [14:56:33] <JustASlacker> or change the configuration
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1620 [14:57:36] <FightingFalcon> shall i configure it for nginx?
and how?
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1622 [14:57:53] <JustASlacker>
replaced-url
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1628 [14:58:14] <neilthereildeil> hey guys
1629 [14:58:26] <FightingFalcon> When i use certbot --nginx
command it still isnt working
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1636 [14:59:11] <neilthereildeil> i set ecryptfs to encrypt my
home directory in a root shell running in screen. then i
disconnected the shell with ctrl a+d, and logged out of the computer
with that one screen shell still logged in. why did ecryptfs fail?
1637 [14:59:52] <JustASlacker> FightingFalcon: check my config
1638 [14:59:58] <JustASlacker>
replaced-url
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1643 [15:01:29] <FightingFalcon> JustASlacker, now all of them
WORKED except one of them. whats going on?
1644 [15:01:41] <JustASlacker> varnish dead?
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1649 [15:02:51] <FightingFalcon> yes
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1659 [15:04:32] <neilthereildeil> does ecryptfs stop working when
i disconnect from the screen?
1660 [15:04:36] <neilthereildeil> screen session*
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1665 [15:05:51] <FightingFalcon> Does certbot --nginx permanently
change nginx config files?
1666 [15:06:16] <karlpinc> FightingFalcon: Probably.
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1702 [15:24:01] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1570
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1715 [15:31:50] <ksk> FightingFalcon: iirc yes, but it puts
changes in some type of header, so you can make them out kind of
easily.
1716 [15:32:04] <ksk> better do a backup before running that
command ;)
1717 [15:32:17] <ksk> ,v certbot
1718 [15:32:18] <judd> Package: certbot on amd64 --
jessie-backports: 0.10.2-1~bpo8+1; stretch: 0.10.2-1;
stretch-backports: 0.28.0-1~bpo9+1; stretch-proposed-updates:
0.28.0-1~deb9u1; stretch-updates: 0.28.0-1~deb9u1; buster: 0.28.0-1;
sid: 0.28.0-1
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1752 [15:51:26] <uio> Hi! How can I change the weird flame image
on the xscreensaver login?
1753 [15:52:22] <uio> I tried renaming
/usr/share/pixmaps/xscreensaver.xpm but that didn't work...
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1757 [15:53:22] <die7> nay chance to get udev rules reloaded (inet
renaming) without reboot?
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1759 [15:53:26] <die7> *any
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1761 [15:54:15] <shtrb> plasma ?
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1765 [15:55:46] <jelly> die7: "udevadm trigger" as root,
maybe?
1766 [15:57:33] <LtL> uio: run xscreensaver-demo i believe and
configure it
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1771 [15:59:08] <uio> LtL, I think that that only allows one to
slect the images in the background. I chose 'nothing'. But
when one starts to enter the password, the ugly fire picture pops up
still...
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1778 [16:00:12] <LtL> uio: i don't know, i tried it, then
promptly uninstalled it.
1779 [16:00:24] <uio> LtL, What do you use instead?
1780 [16:00:55] <LtL> uio: nothing
1781 [16:01:07] <neilthereildeil> why does ecryptfs-migrate exit
when i disconnect the screen session with ctrl a + d?
1782 [16:01:36] <uio> LtL, Ah.... unlocked screen...
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1785 [16:02:57] <neilthereildeil> uio: im using screen in a shell,
and ctrl a + d and the exit from the outter shell
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1791 [16:05:22] <die7> jelly: does not work, udev rule is fine
which works also as expected after reboot, but I wish to avoid
rebbot
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1809 [16:10:07] <Jubei> Howdy. Is it possible to set the ACL
permissions for files newly created in a directory? i.e. I have a
directory that has an ACL user:replaced-url
1810 [16:10:18] <Jubei> is that possible?
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1816 [16:11:11] <sn00ker> you know all the boot messages when
booting up with ok or fail. they are also coming off. how can you
switch off the messages? At the start, I have them away. only a
black screen. but how can I do that when shutting down?
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1818 [16:11:45] <sn00ker> So I would like to start just a black
picture with "start" or turn off "drive down".
but no messages
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1837 [16:20:38] <wrksx> I'm trying to setup smartmontools to
run autmatic checks on my disks
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1839 [16:21:01] <uio1> !ping
1840 [16:21:02] <dpkg> Sorry uio1, you're not online.
1841 [16:21:11] <wrksx> After installing the smartmontools, I have
two services running: smartd and smartmontools
1842 [16:21:16] *** Joins: gradio (~gradio@replaced-ip )
1843 [16:21:32] <wrksx> what is the difference between those two
services
1844 [16:21:33] <uio> Any other thoughts on how to change the
picture? I tried looking at all the files I found for xscreensaver
in catfish, but couldn't see where the flame image is stored...
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1854 [16:23:39] <wrksx> ah my bad, I didn't look well enough,
it seems that both are the same, actually pointing to smartd
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1862 [16:27:00] <wrksx> I've been looking for a few online
tutorials about smartd, and there are two files usually involved:
/etc/default/smartmontools and /etc/smartd.conf
1863 [16:27:28] <wrksx> Can anyone tell we why there are two
distinct files ?
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1881 [16:33:43] <rant> wrksx: /etc/smartd.conf is for the smart
deamon and /etc/default/smartmontools is for the init script that
starts it
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1883 [16:34:52] <wrksx> ty rant, is that a common practice in
Debian to have init scripts in /etc/default ? I'm discovering
this
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1886 [16:35:23] *** Parts: diogenes_ (~diogenes_@replaced-ip ) ("vergissmeinnicht")
1887 [16:35:35] <greycat> /etc/default/ contains configuration
files that are dotted in by traditional SysV-rc init scripts.
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1890 [16:35:38] <blackflow> more precisely, /etc/default/ files
are _environment_ settings for the services, both sysv and systemd
if they're sourcing the file
1891 [16:35:52] <greycat> As those are slowly being phased out,
there's less and less going on in there.
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1896 [16:38:19] <wrksx> ha right, I see /etc/init.d/smartmontools
sourcing/dotting /etc/default/smartmontools
1897 [16:38:48] <greenzap> quit
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1902 [16:42:13] <neilthereildeil> any ideas why
ecryptfs-migrate-home is exiting when i disconnecte from the screen
session where i am running it using ctrl a + d?
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1904 [16:42:26] <greycat> What do you see when you reattach to it?
1905 [16:42:27] <wrksx> I find it troubling that the (smartmonctl)
service is up and running automatically after install, but not
configured to start on system startup
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1909 [16:44:09] <neilthereildeil> greycat: it says it finished
encrypting the whole home directory
1910 [16:44:15] <neilthereildeil> and the program exited
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1912 [16:44:23] <neilthereildeil> but i know it didnt encrypt the
whole thing so quick;y
1913 [16:44:31] <wrksx> Is there any obvious reason for that I
might be missing ?
1914 [16:44:39] <idiot136> can u test my torrentt?
replaced-url
1915 [16:44:43] <idiot136> its subgenius
1916 [16:44:43] <neilthereildeil> greycat: do i have to run screen
in a special mode or something?
1917 [16:44:45] <idiot136> pls i need to test
1918 [16:45:23] <blackflow> wrksx: what do you mean? the systemd
service is. init scripts aren't by default, if there's a
systemd unit
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1920 [16:46:31] <wrksx> blackflow, ha sorry then it make sense,
reading old tutorials and limited knowledge about systemd played
against me...
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1922 [16:46:59] <greycat> If the package supplies both an init.d
script *and* a systemd unit file, the systemd unit file has
precedence. The init.d script only gets used if you boot under
sysvinit.
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1925 [16:47:27] <wrksx> okay ty for the explanation
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1928 [16:49:34] <wrksx> So now I'm looking for the systemd
unit file provided by smartmontools
1929 [16:50:04] <wrksx> but can't find it
1930 [16:50:18] <greycat> did you do a dpkg -L on the package and
see what files it has?
1931 [16:50:31] <blackflow> wrksx: systemctl status smartd.service
shows you where it us, under "Loaded"
1932 [16:50:33] <rant> wrksx: /lib/systemd/system/smartd.service
1933 [16:50:40] <wrksx> nope I'm looking throught
/etc/systemd/system
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1936 [16:50:49] <greycat> why would you look there? that's
for your local overrides.
1937 [16:51:09] * rant just did what blackflow said
1938 [16:51:10] <greycat> or automatically generated alias
symlinks and so forth
1939 [16:51:40] <wrksx> blackflow, right it says
/lib/systemd/system/smartd.service
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1941 [16:51:43] <wrksx> thanks for the help
1942 [16:51:52] <jelly> it's vaguely interesting init script
and s'd unit have different names
1943 [16:52:31] <blackflow> yeh, it's finally more correct,
as "smartd.service" :)
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1946 [16:53:27] <jelly> unit name matching the package names seem
more sensible
1947 [16:53:53] <wrksx> hum so in that unit file there is this:
/lib/systemd/system/smartd.service
1948 [16:53:59] <wrksx> oops sorry
1949 [16:54:22] <greycat> jelly: so you're saying almost
nobody has any sense
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1951 [16:54:33] <wrksx> hum so in that unit file there is this:
environementFile=-/etc/default/smartmontools
1952 [16:54:41] <wrksx> why is there a dashh in front of the path?
1953 [16:54:42] <greycat> hopefully without the typo
1954 [16:54:51] <greycat> read the man pages to see what the
hyphen means
1955 [16:54:57] <wrksx> greycat, yeah lol
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1957 [16:55:10] <wrksx> greycat like, man systemd ?
1958 [16:55:27] <greycat> that would be a valid starting point,
yes
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1962 [16:56:42] <blackflow> wrksx: systemd.exec(5)
1963 [16:56:42] <greycat> Oh, there were TWO typos. No wonder
I'm having trouble finding it.
1964 [16:56:52] <greycat> The actual spelling is EnvironmentFile
with a leading capital E.
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1967 [16:57:24] <wrksx> greycat, yeah sorry had some issues with
the clipboard so I quickly typed this, obviously I should have been
more carfull
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1969 [16:57:31] <wrksx> careful
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1973 [16:58:27] <wrksx> blackflow, ty will have a look. How did u
find out it's in that man page though ?
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1977 [16:59:22] <blackflow> wrksx: learned over time where in the
several manpages stuff is. systemd.unit, systemd.service,
systemd.exec being the primary oness
1978 [16:59:43] <wrksx> okay no magic search involved =)
1979 [16:59:56] <iovec> there's also systemd.directives(7) to
quickly find where to jump to
1980 [17:00:00] <greycat> "man systemd.service"
"/EnvironmentFile" "man systemd.exec"
"/EnvironmentFile" etc.
1981 [17:00:01] *** Quits: smokals (~smokals@replaced-ip ) (Quit: My MacBook has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…)
1982 [17:00:12] *** Quits: Ooze (~Ooze@replaced-ip ) (Quit: I have to return some videotapes...)
1983 [17:00:25] <greycat> and that's after they all failed
when trying /environmentFile
1984 [17:00:28] *** Quits: shtrb (~shtrb@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
1985 [17:00:31] *** Joins: Ooze (~Ooze@replaced-ip )
1986 [17:00:44] <blackflow> iovec: +1
1987 [17:01:05] <greycat> iovec: oh, nice.
1988 [17:01:39] <greycat> Would've been even nicer if they
had simply put them all in ONE page, but....
1989 [17:02:05] <wrksx> yeah
1990 [17:02:27] *** Quits: T4P4N (~T4P4N@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
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1993 [17:03:25] *** Joins: Mazhive_one (~Mazhive@replaced-ip )
1994 [17:03:29] <blackflow> TIL ctrl-v ctrl-r = regex off in less
= case insensitive search
1995 [17:03:40] *** Quits: cdown (~cdown@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
1996 [17:03:43] *** Joins: jhutchins_wk (~jonathan@replaced-ip )
1997 [17:03:50] <iovec> it's in .exec because you can use
those settings in all units that encapsulate processes (so services,
sockets, etc). Similarly, the systemd.unit is its own because it
applies to the [Unit] section which would be similar for all units,
then every unit has its own systemd.[type] to cover what goes in
[Type] and so on.
1998 [17:04:21] <greycat> You know what else would have been super
nice? Not having separate bloody Windows-style SECTIONS in unit
files.
1999 [17:04:31] *** Quits: Mazhive (~Mazhive@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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2002 [17:05:10] <greycat> It just creates another way you can
screw things up, without giving you any benefits to compensate for
that.
2003 [17:05:23] *** Joins: bouba (~bouba@replaced-ip )
2004 [17:05:30] <blackflow> nitpick, but it isn't Windows
style, it's INI form
2005 [17:05:31] *** Quits: chele (~chele@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2006 [17:05:39] <greycat> Windows INI.
2007 [17:05:44] <blackflow> predates windows
2008 [17:05:50] <wrksx> u guys are funny
2009 [17:06:02] *** Quits: interrobangd (~interroba@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2010 [17:06:04] <joepublic> We'll be here all week. Try the
fish.
2011 [17:06:29] <iovec> well, it was inspired by D-Bus service
files (and .desktop entries), that were in turn inspired by windows
.ini files, not some variant of them predating it
2012 [17:06:36] <greycat> OK, wikipedia page says some MS-DOS
things used it too. Whatever.
2013 [17:06:55] <blackflow> php ini does that form as well
2014 [17:07:00] *** Parts: bouba (~bouba@replaced-ip ) ()
2015 [17:07:06] <blackflow> ft=dosini for the colour :)
2016 [17:07:10] <wrksx> okay, I know I should read all man systemd
but I'm trying to figure out what makes a service srat on
system startup
2017 [17:07:14] <greycat> all the more reason to run away
screaming
2018 [17:07:53] <blackflow> whether it's [Section] or section
{ .... } doesn't bother me as long as thre's some logical
grouping
2019 [17:07:54] <greycat> wrksx:
replaced-url
2020 [17:08:09] <jelly> greycat: apache makes sense!
2021 [17:08:10] <blackflow> but having one giant namespace? nah
2022 [17:08:13] *** Joins: dunix (~dunix@replaced-ip )
2023 [17:08:25] <greycat> Why?
2024 [17:08:38] <greycat> What POSSIBLE benefit to you gain by
splitting a 10 line file into 3 sections?
2025 [17:08:55] <blackflow> wrksx: systemd does away with such
concepts in favor of targets and dependencies. something is started
on boot if the configured target depends on it
2026 [17:09:11] <joepublic> compliance with the INI
specifications?
2027 [17:09:24] <joepublic> oh, wait, benefit; um, i dunno
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2031 [17:10:31] <iovec> it might not be apparent but properties
applying to the unit "object" and the unit class
"service, socket, mount, ..." are different, so that is
why you have sections, to make life easier for it =)
2032 [17:10:46] *** Joins: DmanT_ (~Tobias@replaced-ip )
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2034 [17:11:26] *** Quits: aspyct (~aspyct@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2035 [17:11:37] <blackflow> it's dumb complaining about
logical grouping. it doesn't matter if it's [Section], or
section{...}, or section_somevar that many flat formats do
because.... they're flat and encode grouping in var names.
2036 [17:11:49] <iovec> and the reasoning for having [Install] is
a bit different, systemd does lazy loading of units (only following
forward dependencies) so you need to create forward dependencies by
means of symlinks to do that
2037 [17:12:09] <blackflow> namespacing like this is good forward
thinking so one day you can't say "Oh, shi-! we already
have that name in the global, flat namespace"
2038 [17:12:20] *** Quits: manjeet (uid343474@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
2039 [17:12:23] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
2040 [17:12:26] <iovec> otherwise if it follows multi-user.target
and only loads what it requires (recursively), and something else it
isn't going to read has RequiredBy=multi-user.target, it will
never see it
2041 [17:12:33] <iovec> it's a design choice that led to that
2042 [17:12:53] *** Joins: zeden (~user@replaced-ip )
2043 [17:12:56] *** Quits: sn00ker (~Tobias@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2044 [17:13:16] <wrksx> blackflow, okay so it's thanks to the
WantedBy=multi-user.target line in the unit file that my smartd
service will start on system startup
2045 [17:13:32] <greycat> So once again, the decisions were made
entirely to make things slightly easier for the developers of
systemd, at the expense of totally unnecessary complexity being
inflicted on the thousands of systemd users.
2046 [17:14:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1571
2047 [17:14:06] <n4dir> makes you wonder, doesn't it?
2048 [17:14:25] *** Quits: msimpson (~msimpson@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2049 [17:14:27] <iovec> greycat: ofcourse, for example see the
specifier vs environment variable parsing discrepancy (the first
resolved at load time, and the second at execution time)
2050 [17:14:37] <petn-randall> !light weight
2051 [17:14:38] <dpkg> <mjg59> To a first approximation,
when someone says "Lightweight" what they mean is "I
don't understand the problems that the alternative
solves". (replaced-url
2052 [17:14:43] <blackflow> fussy fossy is never satisfied.
don't do monolithic designs! ooh ooh don't fragment into
non-monolithic sections either! tough crowd to satisfy ;)
2053 [17:14:52] *** Quits: afroboy (~afroboy@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2054 [17:14:56] *** Quits: Ricardo__ (~rick@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2055 [17:15:03] <iovec> since systemd units are not executable, it
is hard for them to add dynamism because then it is difficult to
decide when to resolve a variable, so they instead resort to saying
things like that shouldn't be needed
2056 [17:15:03] *** Joins: T4P4N (~T4P4N@replaced-ip )
2057 [17:15:13] <iovec> going as far as calling specifiers "a
mistake"
2058 [17:15:37] *** Quits: PinguiN9w (~PinguiN9w@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2059 [17:15:50] *** Quits: Brainium (~brainium@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2060 [17:15:54] *** Quits: sonic_dee (~linushec@replaced-ip ) (Quit: byby)
2061 [17:16:15] <jelly> greycat: clearly we need a parser to
convert systemd units into s6 and use s6init!
2062 [17:16:20] <iovec> and if they add too much stuff, like %U
(resolving to user name of the executed unit), they might have to do
NSS, and since they do resolution at load time, that would mean
doing it in PID 1 (because that's where they parse all units,
in privileged context)
2063 [17:17:03] <jelly> iovec: NSS can be done in a sane way, tho,
pretend you're nscd.
2064 [17:17:15] * jelly has a feeling of deja vu
2065 [17:17:26] *** Quits: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2068 [17:18:02] <mdk> Hum, hello here, I'm having
python3.6-minimal and python3.7-minimal installed, but
python3-distutils is only installing for 3.7, so my 3.7 install
don't have distutils and won't properly work (in venvs),
any idea how to get distutils installed for 3.6 too?
2069 [17:18:22] <mdk> (testing my code with both versions using
tox usually, but today, it's broken :()
2070 [17:18:36] *** Quits: Sepultura (~quassel@replaced-ip##) (Quit: ##replaced-url
2071 [17:19:14] <petn-randall> mdk: What OS release are you
running?
2072 [17:19:24] <petn-randall> neither of those are in Debian
stable.
2073 [17:19:27] *** Joins: matchaw (~matchaw@replaced-ip )
2074 [17:19:28] <mdk> petn-randall: Debian testing
2075 [17:19:46] <mdk> yup, can't use python3.5 from debian
stable, too unstable for asyncio :(
2076 [17:19:47] *** Joins: dtux (~dmtucker@replaced-ip )
2077 [17:20:19] <jelly> 3.6 will hopefully be gone from buster
before the freeze? :-)
2078 [17:20:43] <petn-randall> ,v python3.6-minimal
2079 [17:20:44] <judd> Package: python3.6-minimal on amd64 -- sid:
3.6.8-1
2080 [17:21:01] <jelly> 3.6 hopefully won't be default before
the freeze? :-)
2081 [17:21:04] <petn-randall> mdk: I don't see that package
in testing, I also checked on my local system.
2082 [17:21:14] <wrksx> systemctl get-default returns
graphical.target
2083 [17:21:22] *** Joins: lolnibba (~libba@replaced-ip )
2084 [17:21:24] <wrksx> Why graphical ?
2085 [17:21:32] <jelly> oh it's gone already, nice
2086 [17:21:39] <mdk> petn-randall: oohhh I may have a tiny bit of
sid too: "500
replaced-url
2087 [17:21:47] <wrksx> is it possible to make sense of the target
names ?
2088 [17:21:52] <mdk> petn-randall: didn't though a second I
had 3.7 from testing and 3.6 from sid oO
2089 [17:21:55] <petn-randall> Actually, I don't see any
python 3.6 package in buster right now ...
2090 [17:21:57] * mdk scratch heads
2091 [17:21:58] <greycat> wrksx: because Red Hat is driving it
all. graphical.target corresponds to the old Red Hat run level 5
with *dm running.
2092 [17:22:09] <jelly> dpkg, tell mdk about debian-next
2093 [17:22:21] <greycat> wrksx: multi-user.target corresponds to
the old Red Hat run level 2 or 3 (I don't know which) without
*dm running.
2094 [17:22:26] <jelly> 3.
2095 [17:22:40] <blackflow> good ol' telinit 3 :)
2096 [17:22:41] *** Quits: kirk781 (~kirk781@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2097 [17:23:02] <blackflow> "3" is still working as
kernel command line option to force that target, right?
2098 [17:23:17] <joepublic> I wrote a help desk management system
in php once called "work sucks"
2099 [17:23:47] <joepublic> technicians loved it, customers
didn't know what it was called.
2100 [17:23:50] <blackflow> joepublic: and that's when the
fight started?
2101 [17:24:17] *** Quits: guru (~guru@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2102 [17:24:43] <wrksx> greycat, so it doesn't make sense
that my default target is graphical since I have no dm running
2103 [17:24:51] <wrksx> or am I mistaken ?
2104 [17:24:59] <greycat> If you have no dm installed, then no dm
will be started.
2105 [17:25:08] <joepublic> oooooh
2106 [17:25:48] <blackflow> jelly: python3 in buster is 3.7.2, so
far so good
2107 [17:25:59] *** Joins: hipp (~hipp@replaced-ip )
2108 [17:26:00] *** Joins: afuentes (~kusanagi@replaced-ip )
2109 [17:26:05] <wrksx> greycat, but system will still "go
to" the graphical target ?
2110 [17:26:51] <wrksx> greycat, nevermind, I think I need
extensive reading on systemd to understand what goin on really
2111 [17:26:57] *** Quits: mortderi1 (~mortderir@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2112 [17:27:29] <greycat> *.target is basically a run level with a
different name. Going to "run level 5" (graphical.target)
starts everything.
2113 [17:27:53] *** Quits: encod3 (~encod3@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2114 [17:28:01] <greycat> Going to "multi-user.target"
starts everything except display managers, because some person at
Red Hat thought this was a useful thing.
2115 [17:28:14] <blackflow> wrksx: yes, but doesn't matter,
its dependencies matter. meaning you have a debian
"server" and you can install a desktop on it (eg for
remoting via vnc), it's still a server, but the
graphical.target does it job, dependency-wise
2116 [17:28:36] <jhutchins_wk> greycat: Being able to start a
graphical system in non-graphical mode is definitely useful.
2117 [17:28:46] *** Quits: T4P4N (~T4P4N@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2118 [17:29:07] *** Quits: bertbob (~bertbob@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2119 [17:29:11] <wrksx> blackflow, so basically it's set on
graphical run level just in case you need it one day
2120 [17:29:14] <wrksx> right ?
2121 [17:29:15] <blackflow> it's a just a naming convention.
you can set up a systemd based system with any arbitrary target name
2122 [17:29:42] <blackflow> wrksx: forget run levels, the targets
don't correspond to them, there's only minor analogy
between 3 and multi-usre, and 5 and graphical, as greycat suggested
2123 [17:29:42] <SerajewelKS> wrksx: more because that's the
easiest way to say "start everything" regardless of what
"everything" means on your system
2124 [17:29:45] *** Quits: Tenkawa (~Tenkawa@replaced-ip ) (Quit: leaving)
2125 [17:29:51] *** Quits: ChubaDuba (~ChubaDuba@replaced-ip ) (Quit: WeeChat 1.6)
2126 [17:29:59] <iovec> it isn't even like runlevels, in
runlevels had the semantics that everything in a runlevel should
finish starting before it moves on to the next one. Without explicit
ordering in systemd, there is no such thing, which ends up causing
problems like these
replaced-url
2127 [17:30:07] <blackflow> wrksx: you can make up your own
target, make it default, and define what it depends on
2128 [17:30:15] <blackflow> so don't overthink the
"graphical" part of it
2129 [17:31:30] <greycat> iovec: "isolate NAME ... This is
similar to changing the runlevel in a traditional init system. The
isolate command will immediately stop processes that are not enabled
in the new unit, possibly including the graphical environment or
terminal you are currently using."
2130 [17:31:38] *** Joins: bertbob (~bertbob@replaced-ip )
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2132 [17:32:01] *** Joins: jhutchins_wk1 (~jonathan@replaced-ip )
2133 [17:32:12] <iovec> it isn't, they're wrong about
it.
2134 [17:32:20] <iovec> See:
replaced-url
2135 [17:32:22] <iovec> it's broken
2136 [17:32:54] <blackflow> gah.
2137 [17:33:18] *** Joins: dartleader (~dartleade@replaced-ip )
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2140 [17:34:22] <iovec> they worked around it for getty et all
using IgnoreOnIsolate= but obviously that's just a hacl
2141 [17:34:24] <iovec> hack*
2142 [17:35:12] *** Quits: jhutchins_wk (~jonathan@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
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2146 [17:35:30] <blackflow> transitional and backwards
compatibility is what's killing it. in turn makes you see
nonsense like nginx systemd unit calling start-stop-daemon
2147 [17:35:41] <jelly> so... which init fur bullseye? :-)
2148 [17:35:53] *** Joins: ijash (~ijash@replaced-ip )
2149 [17:36:03] <blackflow> nosh of course
2150 [17:36:12] <jelly> blackflow: backward compatibility is a
must, no flag days plz thnx
2151 [17:36:15] <blackflow> post-systemd, better implementation,
still compatible with the unit files.
2152 [17:36:40] *** Quits: mibo (~mibo@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2153 [17:37:11] <jelly> ooh, it's by JBP which probably means
daemontools compat as well
2154 [17:38:14] *** Quits: Kevlar_Noir (~manjaro-u@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2155 [17:39:45] *** Quits: Haudegen (~quassel@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2156 [17:40:21] <jelly> ,v nosh
2157 [17:40:22] <judd> No package named 'nosh' was found
in amd64.
2158 [17:40:33] *** Joins: ijash_ (~ijash@replaced-ip )
2159 [17:40:43] <jelly> ,rfp nosh
2160 [17:40:49] <iovec> it isn't in debian
2161 [17:40:54] <jelly> yet!
2162 [17:41:01] <iovec> :-)
2163 [17:41:03] *** Joins: dyskon (~HydraGene@replaced-ip )
2164 [17:41:11] *** Quits: mmaddin (~mmaddin@replaced-ip ) (Quit: leaving)
2165 [17:41:18] <jelly> ,wnpp nosh
2166 [17:41:19] <judd> Bug
replaced-url
2167 [17:41:31] <iovec> IDK why you'd use nosh if you wanted
something daemontools like, s6 seems a lot more easier to work
2168 [17:41:36] *** Quits: Ceber (~cerberus@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2169 [17:41:47] <jelly> s6 is a bit of a pain packaging wise
2170 [17:42:29] <iovec> probably better designed than systemd in
some aspects (notify-fd vs sd_notify, s6-fdholder-daemon vs
FDSTORE=1)
2171 [17:42:33] *** Quits: ijash (~ijash@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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2173 [17:43:17] <jelly> ,wnpp s6
2174 [17:43:18] <judd> Sorry, no wnpp bugs were found.
2175 [17:43:54] *** Quits: lolnibba (~libba@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2176 [17:43:54] <iovec>
replaced-url
2177 [17:44:02] *** debhelper sets mode: +l 1560
2178 [17:44:30] <t3st3rV2> jelly> sometimes it still good idea
to clean up prehistoric cruft for the fear turning system into
archeologic museum.
2179 [17:44:40] <blackflow> iovec: hey do you know if that problem
with restarting journald is fixed upstream? speaking of fd
stashing....
2180 [17:44:59] <t3st3rV2> even MS with their overinclination on
MS-DOS compatibiliity eventually got it.
2181 [17:45:15] *** Quits: Workbench (~quassel@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2182 [17:45:32] <iovec> blackflow: it is always going to be
unreliable when the system in overloaded, by virtue of the
transmission mechanism used to store file descriptors in PID 1, but
yes, the official stance is "systemctl restart systemd-journald
is OK to use"
2183 [17:46:05] <iovec> and yes, Lennart knows it, but until
people make noise, it isn't going to be fixed. Requires some
non-trivial redesign of sd_notify (the whole interface is full of
races)
2184 [17:46:41] <blackflow> iovec: do you know with which version?
I'm hoping the one buster will use. right now it's broken
even on bionic (v237)
2185 [17:47:11] *** Joins: uniqdom (~uniqdom@replaced-ip )
2186 [17:47:17] <t3st3rV2> I wonder if he also willing to do
something about just journal needing way too elevated rights? So
once there is vuln it allows to take Os over. Which is silly.
2187 [17:47:22] <iovec> buster is okay, stretch should be fine too
(but I think it misses a fix where journald getting killed will make
PID 1 remove them from its store, not sure)
2188 [17:47:32] <iovec> anything 232+ is fine
2189 [17:47:34] *** Quits: MenschZwoNull (~MenschZwo@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2190 [17:48:03] *** Joins: BuzzBuzzard (~kvirc64@replaced-ip )
2191 [17:48:10] *** Joins: Ceber (~cerberus@replaced-ip )
2192 [17:48:26] <iovec> blackflow: how is it broken on 237?
2193 [17:48:50] <iovec> note that stop+start != restart (in
systemd), you explicitly need to use restart.
2194 [17:49:05] *** Joins: marsupapu (~marsupapu@replaced-ip )
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2196 [17:49:21] <blackflow> iovec: stops logging. haven't
tested fully with services that rely on stdout being logge
2197 [17:49:56] <iovec> then most likely it wasn't able to
store them in PID 1, it will happen when the system is being
thrashed, i've had it happen to me =)
2198 [17:50:04] <t3st3rV2> say I don't really get why
journald needs something like CAP_SYS_ADIN oO
2199 [17:50:08] <blackflow> iovec: then again, could be an
artifact of the config change I did. switched from persistent
(default) to volatile (I like to keep journal only as a short
in-memory buffer, as it forwards to syslog anyway)
2200 [17:50:11] <iovec> it uses a non-blocking write and then
polls for EPOLLOUT on the notify socket, so there's that.
2201 [17:50:21] <iovec> blackflow: nah, that doesn't matter.
2202 [17:51:24] <blackflow> t3st3rV2: so it can read the kernel
buffer?
2203 [17:51:35] *** Quits: BuzzBuzzard (~kvirc64@replaced-ip ) (Client Quit)
2204 [17:51:42] <iovec> t3st3rV2: also, it needs to be root to
fake credentials (when forwarding to syslog)
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2206 [17:51:56] <t3st3rV2> blackflow> actually users coula be
able to access kernel buffer, this depends, though.
2207 [17:52:11] <blackflow> t3st3rV2: not on debian by default
2208 [17:52:37] <blackflow> (kernel.dmesg_restrict)
2209 [17:52:47] <t3st3rV2> Yes, I know this tunable.
2210 [17:53:02] <blackflow> and enabled by default, is what I mean
2211 [17:53:10] <t3st3rV2> iovec> I guess it really weird idea
to "fake credentials" and so on. Logger is meant to log.
Journald gone doing way too much things - and recently paid for it.
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2215 [17:54:45] <SerajewelKS> the principle of least privilege is
rarely used anymore it seems
2216 [17:54:46] <iovec> what, are you asking for separation of
concerns and modularisation? =)
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2219 [17:55:36] <t3st3rV2> iovec> well, at least it would be
logical if Poettering & Co would be able to use rather good
security mechanisms they've put in place in EFFICIENT manner.
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2221 [17:56:09] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: along with its sister,
POLA
2222 [17:56:33] <blackflow> Téh Forgotten Siblings.
2223 [17:56:40] <t3st3rV2> As for modularization there could be
plenty of woes if one wants to lock things down. Say if we have
private filesystem there could be no modular component to call into.
Or it have to be set up as fake/abstraction. It gets complicated.
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2230 [17:59:16] <iovec> the problem with how do they do things
(i.e. standardize on something) is that it kills competition and
being able to experiment with alternative approaches. You cannot
replace journald, so you cannot explore some different way of doing
logging on your system (like doing it daemontools style with a
logger per service instead of using a daemon to fan in all logs from
the system, to prevent making it a central I/O / CPU
2231 [17:59:16] <iovec> bottleneck)
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2234 [17:59:35] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: some people use POLA in
weird anti-POLA ways and it makes me laugh. every so often i'll
read a bug report along the lines of "this flag does what it
says and doesn't do this other thing which is what i meant and
that surprised me."
2235 [18:00:00] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: it's often abused
and misunderstood yes :)
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2241 [18:00:57] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: a backup tool i use has
the special backup ID "latest" to mean "the most
recent backup taken with the same hostname as the machine" and
someone complained that if you try to restore a file that isn't
in that backup, it should move to the prior snapshot and so on until
it finds the file.
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2244 [18:01:43] <SerajewelKS> because that makes more sense and it
was surprising that it didn't do that for him
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2247 [18:03:35] <DoomPatrol> SerajewelKS: whats "POLA"
2248 [18:03:41] <SerajewelKS> because yes, if i typo the filename,
i'd like the backup tool to look through every damn backup for
a file that doesn't exist
2249 [18:03:46] <SerajewelKS> DoomPatrol: principle of least
astonishment
2250 [18:03:50] <DoomPatrol> oic
2251 [18:04:05] <SerajewelKS> don't do shit that a reasonable
user wouldn't expect
2252 [18:05:09] <SerajewelKS> it's often violated by tools
trying to be too smart and helpful
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2254 [18:05:19] <t3st3rV2> You cannot replace journald, so you
cannot explore some different way of doing logging on your system
<- Why can't you? System can even run with journalctl
totally out...
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2256 [18:05:45] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: that'd be the
"abuse" of POLA. It's primarily meant to guard
against sudden, unexpected and unintuitive changes in specification.
2257 [18:06:18] <t3st3rV2> still I can understand their wish for
anyhow standard api to access logs. What has happened before it has
been utter BS.
2258 [18:06:20] <blackflow> eg, rm -rf has that protection about
removing / right? it was _added_. now, if it was removed later, for
no particular reason, that'd be a POLA violation, because its
removal would make nosense.
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2260 [18:07:02] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: that's one facet of
POLA but i don't think that's the primary facet
2261 [18:07:12] <iovec> t3st3rV2: no, replacing journald is
unsupported and going to break things
2262 [18:07:28] <t3st3rV2> each and every thing logged in whatever
ad-hoc format, and even very basic things like getting e.g. user who
did that could be a very tricky and perilous action, where remote
can feed you with bogus data.
2263 [18:07:50] <iovec> things should just log to stderr, and call
it a day
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2266 [18:08:16] <joepublic> and services should be allowed to die
a natural death, no heroics.
2267 [18:08:25] <jelly> you misspelled syslog
2268 [18:08:29] <t3st3rV2> up to forging log entry by smartass
input like 0x0d and 0x0a in some field, that generally sends most
text-mode tools to where they belong.
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2270 [18:09:28] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: well, that's my
understanding of it anyway. if something is unintuitive from the
beginning, I wouldn't call it POLA violation, personally.
2271 [18:10:27] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> things should just log to
stderr, and call it a day <- syslog() looks more logical.
stdin/out/err are rather meant for interactive programs I guess.
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2278 [18:11:36] <iovec> logging to stderr is totally fine, has
nothing to do with interactive programs...
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2281 [18:12:07] <iovec> syslog is fine too, ofcourse, but stderr
is probably a lot more composable
2282 [18:12:10] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: eh, even documented stuff
can violate POLA in my opinion
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2284 [18:12:33] <SerajewelKS> the classic example is
javascript's parseInt() which will infer the radix from the
first argument, unless you explicitly specify the radix
2285 [18:12:46] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: sure, the removal of
--preserve-root, in my example, could be well documented :)
2286 [18:12:51] *** Quits: theluckymike (~theluckym@replaced-ip ) (Quit: leaving)
2287 [18:12:52] <SerajewelKS> it's documented but it still
catches people off guard
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2289 [18:13:03] <blackflow> maybe that was an insufficient example
of being astonished about a change
2290 [18:13:42] <blackflow> here's one major POLA violation
in my book. ZFS doesn't clobber mountpoints on Linux. if you
import a pool that has a dataset that mounts on /, it will refuse to
do so.
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2292 [18:13:53] <blackflow> on FreeBSD, it will happily do so,
without any warning or log entry that it did so.
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2294 [18:14:27] <blackflow> (it will do so for any mounted path,
which is particularly nasty for / )
2295 [18:14:54] <blackflow> I would go as far as to call it a
security vulnerability, but the FreeBSD secteam disagreed. but,
irrelevant.
2296 [18:15:04] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> logging to stderr is
totally fine, has nothing to do with interactive programs... <-
well, systemd handles it reasonably but I still think it weird idea
overall.
2297 [18:15:12] <jelly> that's weird, you can mount other
crap on top of / otherwise can you not
2298 [18:15:37] <blackflow> well you could _overlay_ afaik
2299 [18:15:42] <blackflow> but not fully replace the mountpoint
2300 [18:15:51] <iovec> t3st3rV2: it is weird because nothing does
it, but technically it's totally OK to log to it, infact,
that's what you should keep it open for
2301 [18:15:58] <jelly> it's replaced for all the new
processes :-)
2302 [18:16:04] <blackflow> in FreeBSD, you can fully replace the
mountpoint by mere action of importing a pool.
2303 [18:16:17] <iovec> it allows you to then redirect that to
wherever you want, it's a lot more flexible than having to do
the same through syslog
2304 [18:16:18] <jelly> blackflow: what about open fds?
2305 [18:16:19] <blackflow> jelly: existing ones will error out
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2307 [18:16:28] <jelly> ouch
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2310 [18:16:36] <jelly> thass nasty
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2312 [18:16:41] <blackflow> that's the thing. importing zpool
succeeds, no warning, and you've just broken everything.
2313 [18:16:50] <t3st3rV2> iovec> well, some program do output
errors to stderr. However using it as logging facility looks like
weird idea. Even it name implies it for errors. But informative log
message isn't necessarily error.
2314 [18:17:16] <SerajewelKS> it surprises me a bit that
"importing a pool" results in anything being mounted
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2317 [18:18:14] <iovec> t3st3rV2: even systemd's daemon(7)
recommends not using syslog() but simply fprintf to write to stderr
for log messages
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2319 [18:18:38] <SerajewelKS> as though activating an LVM VG would
result in LVM mounting everything. (other stuff on the system might,
e.g. systemd will automount stuff that's in fstab, but
that's expected.)
2320 [18:18:38] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: it's a result of the
zfs mount service, to be precise.
2321 [18:18:46] <iovec> that's the whole point, not tying
yourself to syslog, the logging subsystem can actually choose with
stderr to connect you to syslog anyway, but logging to stderr keeps
a lot of choices open.
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2323 [18:19:00] <iovec> but anyway, nobody is trying to convince
you.
2324 [18:19:14] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: isn't it
fstab's job to know what you want automounted?
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2327 [18:19:35] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: for ZFS it is only for
"legacy" mount points. That's where ZFS breaks the
established standards.
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2330 [18:19:46] <SerajewelKS> jeez. remind me never to use ZFS.
2331 [18:19:52] <blackflow> :)
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2334 [18:20:11] <SerajewelKS> if your fs needs its own service to
mount things and doesn't even respect fstab...
2335 [18:20:47] <t3st3rV2> iovec> it's written "may
choose" which is != "recommends". Its easier to do
and systemd would handle it. However, I think it debatable if it
good thing.
2336 [18:20:50] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: ironically, zfs root on
linux with systemd requires you to use legacy mountpoints and fstab,
if you have separate datasets for things like /var and /tmp, because
of boot race condition between -- I think -- tmpfiles that pre-set
stuff under /var and /tmp, and then zfs will refuse to mount on
non-empty paths.
2337 [18:21:08] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: well there's a
reason linux kernel devs don't like ZFS at all
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2339 [18:21:48] <SerajewelKS> all the people i've seen
touting ZFS over btrfs or dmraid+LVM fail to mention shit like that
2340 [18:21:57] <iovec> t3st3rV2: fine, you still haven't
presented why you think it isn't a good thing
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2342 [18:22:59] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: well, I've been a
fanboi of it. not so much lately. the zfsonlinux toxic community is
a turnoff.
2343 [18:23:08] <iovec> the reason it wasn't a good idea
before systemd is because nobody used per service loggers capturing
stdout/err for daemons
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2345 [18:23:28] <iovec> but that shouldn't be confused with
anything else, it was a deficiency in the supervision tooling people
had
2346 [18:24:20] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: for the systems i
maintain, online shrinking of ext4 would be all i'd need to
make btrfs/ZFS mostly irrelevant
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2348 [18:25:00] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: but good bits like data
checksums, snapshots, compression and ability to send|recv are still
huge bonuses for btrfs/zfs in my book
2349 [18:25:14] <blackflow> let's see what Stratis will turn
into.
2350 [18:25:34] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: sure. we don't need
most of that, except snapshots for taking atomic backups, and LVM
gives me that. (the snapshots are short-lived. <5min daily.)
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2353 [18:26:38] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: do you raid through LVM
or mdadm?
2354 [18:26:45] <SerajewelKS> mdadm
2355 [18:26:48] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
2356 [18:27:00] <blackflow> still best tool for that job, innit.
2357 [18:27:14] <SerajewelKS> it's fantastic
2358 [18:27:36] *** Joins: mibo (~mibo@replaced-ip )
2359 [18:27:40] <SerajewelKS> i like the idea of btrfs for being
able to join a bunch of drives and have filesystems with differing
redundancy levels that share the storage pool
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2361 [18:28:08] <SerajewelKS> in practice that seems a bit risky.
e.g. i have a filesystem that is not redundant, on a single drive,
for storing transient data.
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2363 [18:28:35] <blackflow> but you can have raid-1 level blocks
on the single disk, can't you?
2364 [18:28:37] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> t3st3rV2: fine, you still
haven't presented why you think it isn't a good thing
<- because it very limited as logging api, for example?
2365 [18:28:38] <SerajewelKS> using a storage pool for a
filesystem like that feels too much like raid0
2366 [18:28:45] <blackflow> at least it'll have an extra copy
in case of bitrot
2367 [18:28:51] <SerajewelKS> e.g. i've way increased the
odds of that filesystem failing
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2371 [18:29:18] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i'm not sure what
you're asking or how it relates
2372 [18:29:19] <t3st3rV2> <iovec> the reason it wasn't
a good idea before systemd is because nobody used per service
loggers capturing stdout/err for daemons <- actually, before
systemd, debugging boot faults has been pain in the rear.
2373 [18:29:41] <t3st3rV2> where one had to code some logging
facility substitute before getting idea what's wrong.
2374 [18:29:44] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: nvm I misunderstood what
you meant
2375 [18:30:02] <t3st3rV2> so I would call what systemd does quite
an improvement.
2376 [18:30:04] <SerajewelKS> e.g. have three disks and a 2-copies
volume and a 1-copy volume
2377 [18:30:11] <iovec> t3st3rV2: if you want priority, you could
easily prefix the message with <4> for instance, and so on,
how that has to be interpreted is then up to you. it's just
text. but I get your point, if you need what syslog() gives you, use
it.
2378 [18:30:25] <iovec> journald will interpret it, for example
2379 [18:30:38] <SerajewelKS> the 1-copy volume would still spread
its contents out over the disks, i think. which seems good in theory
except now that volume is subject to higher failure odds. not a
problem because the data is transient, but a problem because
i'm having to recover it more often.
2380 [18:30:40] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: and the 1-copy volume is
striped x3 ?
2381 [18:30:46] <blackflow> yeah that.
2382 [18:30:50] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i dunno, however btrfs
does it
2383 [18:30:51] <t3st3rV2> SerajewelKS> btw even in such
configuration btrfs would by default write metadata twice to 2
distinct locations. A very good idea btw.
2384 [18:31:12] <SerajewelKS> t3st3rV2: right so basically if a
disk dies, 1/3 of the files go with it. i'd rather the whole
damn fs fail.
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2386 [18:31:36] <t3st3rV2> so random rogue bad sector doesn't
causes tremendous corruption due to metadata damage, etc.
2387 [18:31:52] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: from what I've
researched about it, years ago, it'll make sure to use all the
disks, but eg for "mirror" level it won't go beyond 2
copies, no matter how many disks you've got. I could be wrong
and that changed now.
2388 [18:32:08] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i thought you specified
the number of copies on a per-volume basis
2389 [18:32:13] <SerajewelKS> volume/subvolume
2390 [18:32:14] <blackflow> which means more than 2 disks is a
combo of striped mirror
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2392 [18:32:38] <t3st3rV2> btrfs does not deals with notion of
"volumes" or so.
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2394 [18:32:52] <SerajewelKS> t3st3rV2: btrfs has subvolumes which
can have differing redundancy levels
2395 [18:33:07] <t3st3rV2> subvolumes are purely management thing,
like a empowered version of directory.
2396 [18:33:37] <SerajewelKS> yes, directories that can have
different redundancy policies. which is what i'm talking about.
2397 [18:33:44] <t3st3rV2> SerajewelKS> hmn... have they
implemented this setting finally? Technically design can do it,
sure. But so far it lacked configuration to do that.
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2400 [18:33:56] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: I don't remember
being able to define number of copies. there's "dup"
(two copies on single disk), and "single", and say
"raid1" which won't go beyond 2 copies afaik
2401 [18:33:59] <SerajewelKS> oh. maybe?
2402 [18:34:13] <SerajewelKS> i remember it was on the roadmap for
"soon" some years ago. i assumed they'd gotten to it
by now.
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2404 [18:34:17] <SerajewelKS> but it still seems like a bad idea
2405 [18:34:55] <t3st3rV2> on its own btrfs can even live with
e.g. mix of raid levels or so - or even live conversion in process,
but per-file or per-subvolume configuration of that is remaind to be
seen last time I checked?
2406 [18:35:05] <SerajewelKS> it's attractive because if i
have three disks, i can use as much of it for redundant and as much
for non-redundant as i want, and that can change over time. but with
raid1 on two, and flat fs on the third, i can't.
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2408 [18:35:15] <t3st3rV2> though idea is very cool and I like
their techs allow it internally
2409 [18:35:25] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: yeah, see
replaced-url
2410 [18:35:45] *** Quits: NetTerminalGene (~NetTermin@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
2411 [18:35:49] <SerajewelKS> yes i like the idea until i think
about it, and then it seems like a problem waiting to happen
2412 [18:35:59] *** Quits: pmden_ (~patrick.m@fsf/member/pmden) (Ping
timeout: 272 seconds)
2413 [18:36:33] <blackflow> SerajewelKS: nah, you only risk ONE of
3 drives to die. it wouldn't nuke the volme because each block
has a copy on at least one of the non-failing disks
2414 [18:36:41] *** Quits: lastrodamo (~lastrodam@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Quitte)
2415 [18:36:49] *** Joins: ekix (~eki@replaced-ip )
2416 [18:36:57] <SerajewelKS> blackflow: i'm talking about
the theoretical scenario with a raid1 volume and a
"single" subvolume for transient data
2417 [18:37:19] <blackflow> I see
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2420 [18:38:28] <SerajewelKS> that seems like the magical use case
for btrfs but dmraid+LVM seems like the failure scenarios are better
2421 [18:38:36] <SerajewelKS> if we disregard disks dying,
it's great
2422 [18:38:47] *** Joins: spacemanspam (~weechat@replaced-ip )
2423 [18:39:18] *** Joins: mikedruu (~mikedruu@replaced-ip )
2424 [18:39:29] <nirakara> why does running rsync whilst copying
from a faulty drive to a non faulty one "micro lockup" my
system
2425 [18:39:34] *** Quits: mikedruu (~mikedruu@replaced-ip ) (Client Quit)
2426 [18:39:44] <nirakara> mini little freezes as its reading from
the faulty drive
2427 [18:40:32] <nirakara> cpu is at aroudn 25% and 1.5GB/8gb ram
used
2428 [18:40:49] <nirakara> the whole system locks up, everything.
even typing into irssi
2429 [18:41:05] <nirakara> but the CPU is not at 100% and RAM is
available
2430 [18:41:10] <jelly> nirakara: io stack does not deal well with
sata drives just stopping to reply in the middle of a transaction;
basically this is normal
2431 [18:41:19] *** Joins: mikedruu (~mikedruu@replaced-ip )
2432 [18:41:25] *** Joins: Scrutinizer (~Scrutiniz@replaced-ip )
2433 [18:41:36] <rant> nirakara: most tools will only show you
normal CPU usage not IO waits
2434 [18:41:40] <jelly> nirakara: ideally you'd keep OS disk
array and data disk array on different controllers
2435 [18:41:48] *** Joins: esro (~esro@replaced-ip )
2436 [18:41:51] <jelly> but you don't, so you don't
2437 [18:42:02] <nirakara> right, im running this stuff on a
laptop
2438 [18:42:02] *** Quits: faw (~faw@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2439 [18:42:18] *** Quits: raidsec (~admin@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
2440 [18:42:20] <rant> IO waits are far more serious than normal
CPU usage
2441 [18:42:20] <nirakara> so file this as #wontfix?
2442 [18:42:24] <jelly> and you wouldn't use crappy onboard
sata controller, perhaps
2443 [18:42:39] *** Quits: x10 (~x10@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2444 [18:42:42] <SerajewelKS> wait but then isn't the faulty
drive e.g. an external drive with a USB controller? or do you have
two HDD bays?
2445 [18:42:52] *** Joins: snowgoggles (~snowgoggl@replaced-ip )
2446 [18:43:04] <nirakara> yeah i hooked it up to a USB controller
(powered)
2447 [18:43:19] <nirakara> strange how the whole system locks up.
any reading on this?
2448 [18:43:29] <jelly> nirakara: is the system booted from the
faulty drive (not that it matters a lot)?
2449 [18:43:43] <SerajewelKS> i guess if the keyboard is
internally attached to the same USB controller, the USB controller
could be hung waiting on the drive
2450 [18:43:49] <SerajewelKS> so it looks like the system
isn't responsive even when it is
2451 [18:43:52] <nirakara> no it's not its booted from an
internal ssd and im copying from the faulty drive (USB) to a normal
drive (USB)
2452 [18:44:04] *** Quits: sanroot (~saaB_@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2453 [18:44:09] <nirakara> everything hangs actually, kbd, mouse
all apps
2454 [18:44:16] *** Joins: _0bitcount (~Big_Byte@replaced-ip )
2455 [18:44:24] <nirakara> god forbid i let the screen lock :/
2456 [18:44:27] <jelly> nirakara: if your ssd device is mSATA or
sata as well, controller hiccups stopping ssd io might be a thing
2457 [18:44:43] *** Joins: prince_j1mmys (~mischa@replaced-ip )
2458 [18:45:22] <blackflow> I remember that happening on <4.9
kernels when dd'ing an ISO with bs=1M. total system hoggery
until it's done.
2459 [18:45:23] *** Joins: faw (~faw@replaced-ip )
2460 [18:45:29] *** Joins: raidsec (~admin@replaced-ip )
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2462 [18:45:33] *** Quits: stefanc_diff (~stefanc_d@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2463 [18:45:53] <nirakara> im also getting this constantly in
syslog, what does it mean
2464 [18:45:54] <nirakara> Jan 28 19:45:19 dags lircd[1209]:
lircd-0.9.4c[1209]: Error: Cannot glob
/sys/class/rc/rc0/input[0-9]*/event[0-9]*
2465 [18:46:06] <blackflow> (and no problem with smaller block
sizes, but that stopped being a problem with 4.9+ kernels)
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2467 [18:46:12] *** Joins: rpifan (~rpifan@replaced-ip )
2468 [18:46:21] <jelly> nirakara: probably means "disable
lircd if you don't use it"
2469 [18:46:56] *** Quits: anavel (~shandy@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2470 [18:47:04] <SerajewelKS> IRC server on a laptop!
2471 [18:47:05] <nirakara> right, will do, it's eating up my
diskspace spamming that to syslog
2472 [18:47:14] <jelly> SerajewelKS: no, remote control thingy
2473 [18:47:16] <nirakara> actually that's an infrared
receiver or something
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2475 [18:47:24] <SerajewelKS> oh. right. what am i thinking of?
2476 [18:47:33] *** Parts: autofsckk (~autofsckk@replaced-ip ) ()
2477 [18:47:43] <SerajewelKS> probably just ircd
2478 [18:47:53] *** Quits: mikedruu (~mikedruu@replaced-ip ) (Quit: leaving)
2479 [18:47:58] <jelly> other *ircd might be ircd.
2480 [18:47:58] *** Quits: prince_jammys (~mischa@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2481 [18:48:03] <jelly> but this one is not
2482 [18:48:11] <blackflow> Linux Infrared Remote Control :)
2483 [18:48:16] <blackflow> (daemon)
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2487 [18:48:50] *** Quits: iderik (~weechat@replaced-ip ) (Quit: iderik)
2488 [18:48:53] <jelly> nirakara: USB2 speeds instead of USB3 can
also make responsiveness shitty
2489 [18:49:27] <jelly> Linux _never_ got that right unlike
Windows
2490 [18:49:36] <nirakara> im struggling to understand why the
whole system would lockup, it really sucks. it's workable but
like blackflow said, total system hoggery sucks
2491 [18:49:46] *** Joins: a_l_b (~a_l_b@replaced-ip )
2492 [18:49:47] <nirakara> i think one is plugged into usb2 and
one is usb3 yeah
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2494 [18:49:59] *** Joins: anavel (~shandy@replaced-ip )
2495 [18:50:01] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
2496 [18:50:23] <jelly> an external usb3 switch if you just have a
single usb3 port might be better
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2498 [18:50:45] *** Quits: XsiSec (~xsisec@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2499 [18:50:56] <nirakara> i can hear the spinning rust clicking
which indicates a lock is coming. heh
2500 [18:51:10] *** Joins: mike_ (~mike@replaced-ip )
2501 [18:51:33] *** mike_ is now known as Guest14976
2502 [18:51:38] <jelly> things linux software also has problems
with: reading s.m.a.r.t. over various usb/sata bridges
2503 [18:52:09] <jelly> non-free bianry-only HDSentinel thing does
a lot better than smartmontools there.
2504 [18:52:26] *** Quits: a_l_b (~a_l_b@replaced-ip ) (Client Quit)
2505 [18:52:46] <nirakara> tbh im glad linux will mount and read
data from this drive; im recovering it (for a second time!) for a
relative
2506 [18:52:55] *** Joins: Haudegen (~quassel@replaced-ip )
2507 [18:52:55] <jelly> also it gives a silly percentage health
value for each drive!
2508 [18:52:56] *** Quits: pingfloyd (~pingfloyd@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2509 [18:53:03] <nirakara> also glad there's nothing wrong
with my laptop and this behaviour is expected
2510 [18:53:10] <jelly> yeah, ride it out
2511 [18:53:22] <nirakara> and glad i didn't need to use
ddrescue etc
2512 [18:53:22] <nirakara> :D
2513 [18:53:58] <jelly> if the drive is nearly full, ddrescue or
dd_rescue might have been faster options
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2517 [18:54:40] <nirakara> yeah but then i end up with an image
which i need to mount and copy out of again, which means i need a
drive twice the size of the thing im recovering (which i did get
anyways just in case)
2518 [18:54:55] <nirakara> unless there's a better approach
you can enlighten me on
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2522 [18:56:12] <jelly> if you have a whole empty drive as
destination you can just copy the whole disk as-is, I wouldn't
do it that way but you end up with an identical partition table and
can mount things right away
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2525 [18:56:49] <jelly> doing a file-based copy means free defrag!
2526 [18:57:14] <nirakara> jelly: and then you need to fiddle with
fdisk and maths i can never remember to get all the freespace on the
drive if its not exactly the same size
2527 [18:58:09] <nirakara> i thought linux doesn't need
defrag
2528 [18:58:27] *** Quits: hspcd (~hspcd@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2529 [18:58:27] <nirakara> told that to all my windows friends
when installing gentoo for them and running cs:source under wine
2530 [18:58:38] <nirakara> "its all compiled for your system
so its super fast AND you don't need defrag"
2531 [18:58:56] <nirakara> oh wait these are win fs
2532 [18:58:57] <nirakara> :x
2533 [18:59:03] <jelly> bwahahaha. haha.
2534 [18:59:26] * jelly looks at fragmentation levels on $work mail
server
2535 [19:00:22] <jelly> nirakara: no, linux filesystems are just
slightly better at trying to not fragment too much. As long as there
20-30% block space free.
2536 [19:00:34] *** Quits: setra (~Seth@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
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2538 [19:01:01] <jelly> once you fill an ext4 fs up above say
80-85% it all goes to crap
2539 [19:01:04] *** Quits: Hooloovo0 (Hooloovoo@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 268 seconds)
2540 [19:01:20] <jelly> and stays there after cleaning it up, of
course
2541 [19:01:21] <oiaohm> jelly: not exactly.
2542 [19:01:38] <oiaohm> jelly: I have filled ext4 up to 95
percent and it not stuffed up.
2543 [19:01:59] <oiaohm> Does pay to have online defrag on .
2544 [19:02:00] <jelly> oiaohm: just once, or repeated cleaning
and filling?
2545 [19:02:10] <oiaohm> repeated
2546 [19:02:37] <jelly> how new is that feature
2547 [19:03:14] <oiaohm> Its not a new feature.
2548 [19:03:23] *** Quits: sauvin (~sauvin@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2549 [19:03:29] <oiaohm> It a feature some turn off to gain
performance and it comes back and bites.
2550 [19:03:51] <jelly> how long has it been default, then?
2551 [19:04:00] *** Joins: pax (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip )
2552 [19:04:31] <oiaohm> jelly: since 2009
2553 [19:05:00] <oiaohm> You also have e4defrag to force a defrag
as well with ext4
2554 [19:05:02] <jelly> wasn't that just the _ability_ to run
online defrag
2555 [19:05:06] <jelly> right
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2558 [19:05:41] *** Parts: Guest14976 (~mike@replaced-ip ) ()
2559 [19:05:49] <jelly> but debian never set up regular or
irregular defrag jobs
2560 [19:06:00] *** Joins: id10t (~serf@replaced-ip )
2561 [19:06:08] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
2562 [19:06:11] <jelly> and the kernel does not do it on its own
2563 [19:06:30] *** Joins: theluckymike (~mike@replaced-ip )
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2569 [19:08:08] <oiaohm> jelly: ext4 driver will trigger the
online defrag automatically once you start hitting too much
fragmentation.
2570 [19:08:29] <jelly> also since 2009?
2571 [19:08:37] *** Joins: Qay1N (~ejakuk@replaced-ip )
2572 [19:09:26] <SerajewelKS> we have online defrag?
2573 [19:09:30] <tw> Is there a way to filter by cap (eg. getcap
-r) in find? eg, programs with cap_net_raw w/ -mtime -30?
2574 [19:09:31] <oiaohm> Also since 2009 but its not highly
recommended.
2575 [19:09:42] <SerajewelKS> shit. if we can move data online
when do we get online shrink? :)
2576 [19:09:44] <jelly> news to me!
2577 [19:09:51] <oiaohm> You attempting to write files and it
stalled while file system defrags hurts like hell.
2578 [19:09:53] <jelly> SerajewelKS: data. Not metadata!
2579 [19:09:59] <SerajewelKS> true
2580 [19:10:07] *** Joins: s3rf (~serf@replaced-ip )
2581 [19:10:12] <SerajewelKS> online shrink would get me pretty
close to never needing downtime on anything
2582 [19:10:26] *** Quits: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2583 [19:10:26] <oiaohm> So basically it better to trigger
e4defrag in background in low load
2584 [19:10:29] <jelly> I don't like shrinks, who needs them
2585 [19:10:40] <tw> <- this guy.
2586 [19:10:47] *** Quits: emucla (~emucla@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2587 [19:11:05] <jelly> tw: xfs doesn't support them at all!
2588 [19:11:16] <tw> smaller ext4 fs yields less crazy.
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2590 [19:11:49] *** Quits: Sollg3r (~ejakuk@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
2591 [19:12:05] <SerajewelKS> if i need emergency space for an fs
or an LVM snapshot, at least i can online shrink swap
2592 [19:12:20] *** Quits: Scrutinizer (~Scrutiniz@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
2593 [19:12:27] *** Quits: hph^ (hph@replaced-ip ) ()
2594 [19:12:42] <tw> more layers, more problems.
2595 [19:12:50] *** Joins: gonza_ (~acidtripp@replaced-ip )
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2597 [19:13:35] *** Joins: hc^ (hc@replaced-ip )
2598 [19:13:39] <tw> I'm going to assume find + cap_* search
is impossible, just like find + user.* xattr.
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2604 [19:14:31] <oiaohm> jelly:
replaced-url
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2611 [19:15:12] <oiaohm> xfs was one of the first with online
defrag.
2612 [19:15:20] <SerajewelKS> i mean i assume it's
theoretically possible to write online ext4 shrink. "it's
just software."
2613 [19:15:26] *** Quits: acidtripper (~acidtripp@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2614 [19:15:55] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: online shrink equals arguing
with page cache badly.
2615 [19:16:32] <oiaohm> Grow is safe online shrink not so much.
2616 [19:16:47] *** Joins: s3rf (~serf@replaced-ip )
2617 [19:18:51] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS:
replaced-url
2618 [19:18:57] <t3st3rV2> <nirakara> i can hear the
spinning rust clicking which indicates a lock is coming. heh <-
Linux throws command to read data to HDD. HDD struggles to execute
it and retries reading attempts. It takes long, kernel waits for it.
You call it "deadlock".
2619 [19:18:57] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: i'm not sure what you
mean. both should be safe, though online shrink would consume iops
shuffling things more than online grow, which doesn't need to
move things.
2620 [19:19:12] *** Quits: dtux (~dmtucker@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
2621 [19:19:25] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: yeah those methods are
pointless if you can just boot the installer
2622 [19:19:54] *** Quits: NetTerminalGene (~NetTermin@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
2623 [19:19:57] <oiaohm> I could not find the one there is one out
there where you don't reboot.
2624 [19:20:13] <SerajewelKS> sure, but "no reboot" does
not mean "no downtime"
2625 [19:20:35] <oiaohm> The one I am referign to is techically no
downtime if it works.
2626 [19:20:46] <oiaohm> If it does not it totally disaster.
2627 [19:20:50] *** Joins: diogenes_ (~diogenes_@replaced-ip )
2628 [19:20:59] <t3st3rV2> nirakara> FYI, you may rather want
to create faulty drive image usint tools like gddrescue, myrescue,
etc. Linux and usual programs do not play well if drive fails to
read sectors.
2629 [19:21:05] *** Joins: No_One (~DB@replaced-ip )
2630 [19:21:06] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: that's growing
2631 [19:21:17] <SerajewelKS> i know you can online grow,
i've done it many times
2632 [19:21:39] <SerajewelKS> and it's not dangerous if you
are careful. i've never had it fail yet.
2633 [19:21:39] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: shrinking required end of
disc to be not written. It can be done.
2634 [19:22:00] *** Joins: bouba (~bouba@replaced-ip )
2635 [19:22:03] <SerajewelKS> shrinking could be done by
coordinating with the fs driver
2636 [19:22:04] *** Quits: bouba (~bouba@replaced-ip ) (Client Quit)
2637 [19:22:34] <oiaohm> You need coordination of fs driver and
page cache system.
2638 [19:22:57] <SerajewelKS> sure
2639 [19:23:11] <oiaohm> Ie page cache attempting to load from
inode from a disc that does not exist does not go well.
2640 [19:23:34] <SerajewelKS> right
2641 [19:23:41] <SerajewelKS> still plausible to implement
2642 [19:23:52] <oiaohm> partically when it executable space of a
program that been pushed out due to low memory.
2643 [19:24:55] <SerajewelKS> oiaohm: i'd assume online
defrag has to solve that problem as well
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2646 [19:25:31] <t3st3rV2> <SerajewelKS> i mean i assume
it's theoretically possible to write online ext4 shrink.
"it's just software." <- it is, but moving away
data from certain location could be tricky.
2647 [19:25:42] *** Joins: quad_ (9d2fbaeb@replaced-ip )
2648 [19:25:42] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: no online defrag can just
avoid the files currently in use.
2649 [19:26:06] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: resizing you don't have
that loop hole.
2650 [19:26:07] <SerajewelKS> t3st3rV2: of course
2651 [19:26:21] <oiaohm>
replaced-url
2652 [19:26:26] <SerajewelKS> i'm not saying it's easy,
just plausible
2653 [19:26:31] <oiaohm> So it possible todo it but is level of
pain.
2654 [19:26:32] <t3st3rV2> Say btrfs keeps inverse tracking of
what belongs to what for that reason, they call it backrefs. So they
can move offending data away fast. EXT4 likely lacks it so it could
be challenging.
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2663 [19:28:37] <t3st3rV2> it really works better when it has been
foreseen as design requirements, otherwise it risky lengthy slow
operation, rather scary thing to do.
2664 [19:28:54] <s10gopal> installed fresh debian , uname -a says
Debian 4.9.130-2 (2018-10-27) but unable to update it
2665 [19:29:44] <SerajewelKS> s10gopal: that is the latest kernel
version
2666 [19:29:51] <SerajewelKS> s10gopal: (in stable) why do you
think you need to update?
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2672 [19:30:51] <s10gopal> SerajewelKS: added new repo , want to
install it
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2675 [19:32:07] <SerajewelKS> s10gopal: what repo?
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2678 [19:33:40] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: there is a difference
between plausible and sane. Like it plausible to jump out a aircraft
from 25000 feet without a parachute and land safely
replaced-url
2679 [19:34:20] <oiaohm> SerajewelKS: not like you will be getting
rid of parashute any time soon because not parachute path has lots
of complexity.
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2698 [19:45:08] <de-facto> In the debian netinst terminal
installer (partitioning): what does M, G stand for? 1000 or 1024
based? How can I create partitions aligned to 1024 (as normal in
computer systems)?
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2700 [19:45:30] <greycat> "normal" hasn't existed
for a couple decades
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2702 [19:45:54] <bolt> oiaohm: parashutes have not been
scientifically proved to increase landing survival. there's not
a single peer reviewed study on the matter with any significant
number of participants and a control group.
2703 [19:45:57] <de-facto> well i want to use it still since it
makes most sense with 512 byte sectors
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2707 [19:47:21] <de-facto> greycat, does your answer mean debian
installer uses 1M = 1000 * 1000 instead of 1M = 1024 * 1024?
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2712 [19:48:30] <bolt> de-facto: i have no idea what the installer
uses, but if you're picky about the matter, you could try using
your favorite partitioning tool beforehand and simply going with
those pre-existing partitions in the installer
2713 [19:48:35] <blackflow> bolt: I think you mean have BEEN
scientifically proven NOT to.... there was this recent research that
exposed the absurdity of scientific methodology abuse.
2714 [19:48:40] <greycat> What I mean is that there is no such
thing as "normal" when it comes to whether M means
1,000,000 or 1,048,576. With hard drives in recent decades, you are
*far* more likely to get 1,000,000 but there are no guarantees.
2715 [19:50:15] <blackflow> for which reason people should spell
MB or MiB, to specify what they really mean
2716 [19:50:28] <de-facto> i am picky and insist on using 1024
based measurements. So i would have to use parted for that because
debian installer does not support it anymore?
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2723 [19:51:50] <greycat> blackflow: well, if someone writes MiB
then you can be somewhat confident, but if they write MB, you have
no idea which one they mean
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2725 [19:53:12] <blackflow> yeah unfortunately
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2730 [19:55:00] <de-facto> debian installer writes MB and GB but
probably means MiB and GiB, not sure though
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2733 [19:55:50] <greycat> You could create a partition in the
installer and then use your favorite tool to see how big it ended
up.
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2735 [19:57:15] <de-facto> all units in computers are 2^n based
(HDD sectors 512, RAM/SWAP etc), so why should I use MiB and GiB for
partitioning? Just because HDD manufacturers want to advertise
bigger numbers does not make any technical sense to me
2736 [19:57:17] <blackflow> I mostly debootstrap, but I remember
seeing funny numbers in the installer baesd on existing partitions,
with decimals even! as if it's actually sector based and rounds
off to nearest sector size
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2738 [19:57:41] <de-facto> yes with decimals it displays
"MB" and "GB"
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2740 [19:58:27] <greycat> de-facto: I understand your argument,
and I may even agree with it a bit, but it is a losing battle. You
are tilting at windmills.
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2742 [19:58:31] <blackflow> de-facto: because MiB and GiB are 2^n
based? 1000 MiB is 1024MB
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2744 [20:00:02] <de-facto> i am just saying that i want to use
1024 based units for partitioning
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2760 [20:05:12] <jelly> 1000 MiB is 1048.576 MB dude
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2765 [20:06:26] <jelly> de-facto: however. magnetic storage
providers used base-10 before silicon storage even existed
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2767 [20:07:37] <blackflow> jelly: decimals! :)
2768 [20:07:40] <de-facto> maybe, but when i want to use swapsize
= 2 * ramsize it makes sense to use 1024 based units, when aligning
to 512 sectors with grub it makes more sense etc
2769 [20:07:45] <jelly> (and by base-10, did I mean base-10 or
base-10!)
2770 [20:08:00] <jelly> de-facto: you don't WANT swapsize = 2
* RAM in 2019.
2771 [20:08:12] <de-facto> why?
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2773 [20:08:19] <jelly> it's overkill
2774 [20:08:24] <blackflow> lol think about it.
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2776 [20:08:46] <de-facto> i have 4 GB ram, so i want to use 8 GB
swap
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2778 [20:08:46] <jelly> Linux systems become unusable way before
that swap is 100% used
2779 [20:09:08] <jelly> de-facto: use 4GB swap, but only if you
plan on using hibernation
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2781 [20:09:32] <blackflow> de-facto: for what purposes exactly.
you'll only see it mostly empty, maybe 1-2G filled if you had a
lot of open browser tabs for example
2782 [20:09:34] <jelly> de-facto: use about 6GB runtime swap on
zram to expand RAM.
2783 [20:09:39] *** Joins: botho (~botho@replaced-ip )
2784 [20:09:51] <de-facto> its a server, so i might not use swap
partition at all and rather settle with swapfile?
2785 [20:10:11] <de-facto> swapfile on root
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2789 [20:10:23] <jelly> no need for a swapfile by default, either
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2791 [20:10:45] <jelly> if your workload needs more RAM, guess
what... you need to buy more RAM
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2794 [20:10:58] <blackflow> I'd prefer a swapfile over a
partition
2795 [20:11:24] <jelly> swap on server: useful only if you have
leaky long-running services and want to avoid restarting them too
often
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2797 [20:11:28] <blackflow> jelly: well, I disagree. there's
always some pages unused that can be swapped out, depending on the
software used. bloatwares especially have a ton of stuff loaded but
never used. cough, gitlab, cough.
2798 [20:11:39] <idiot136> mmm
2799 [20:11:50] <blackflow> our gitlab server that's mostly
idle gobbles RAM like there's no tomorrow and lollity, most of
it is paged out
2800 [20:12:12] <blackflow> so I always keep 2-4GB of swap around
for that.
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2802 [20:12:16] <jelly> blackflow: I think all userspace devs
should learn to write for Solaris first, not Linux.
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2806 [20:12:48] <jelly> and not ask the kernel to allocate
gigabytes then never use it and never return it
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2808 [20:13:03] <blackflow> like python.
2809 [20:13:10] <jelly> but we don't live in that universe
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2811 [20:13:47] <de-facto> blackflow, i am actually planing to
install gitlab on it, do you think 4 GiB RAM is not enough?
2812 [20:13:54] <jelly> so gitlab counts as leaky shit, I am not
surprised
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2815 [20:14:11] <blackflow> I hate that about python. I can live
with GIL, just go multiprocess and forget threads (uniless i/o
intensive work). but gobbling up RAM and keepint it around? no.
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2819 [20:14:32] <jelly> I'm kind of toying with the idea of
using zram swap even on servers
2820 [20:14:35] <blackflow> de-facto: I can assure you that's
barely enough.
2821 [20:14:43] <de-facto> wow
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2827 [20:15:41] <jelly> it ruins latency but it ruins it a lot
less than swapping to hdd or ssd over half a dozen layers
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2830 [20:16:37] <blackflow> de-facto: what's also wow is that
the omnibus package has like 75k files in it. with ZFS on root that
means ~10 minutes (yes, 10 minutes) during any installation or
UPDATE of the gitlab package, unless I turn off zfs fsync
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2833 [20:16:58] <jelly> blackflow: just for fun, did you try
running said gitlab on 32bit userspace?
2834 [20:17:00] <blackflow> 75k files of ruby carp
2835 [20:17:25] <blackflow> jelly: nope, and I'm not sure how
that would work
2836 [20:17:52] <jelly> I've had some perl code that
basically used 2x RAM on amd64 vs i386
2837 [20:18:04] <de-facto> i never used gitlab before, but i
thought it might be worth a try on 4 GB RAM on ext4 root partition
2838 [20:18:14] <blackflow> jelly: some pointer heavy, like linked
lists stuff?
2839 [20:18:18] <blackflow> like dictionaries or arrays
2840 [20:18:37] <jelly> yes. lots and lots of dictionaries inside
dictionaries
2841 [20:18:47] <blackflow> that might explain it
2842 [20:18:57] <jelly> (well hashes, in perl)
2843 [20:19:10] <jelly> (associative arrays!)
2844 [20:19:33] <jelly> (it's what perl pretends to be
objects)
2845 [20:19:55] <blackflow> de-facto: idle server. 4 repos. mostly
only me pushing a few commits per evening.
replaced-url
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2848 [20:20:04] <blackflow> the drops are updates
2849 [20:20:11] <jelly> the weird thing was, #perl said it
wasn't supposed to be like that but maybe the distro had
misbuilt perl
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2851 [20:21:15] <jelly> that's horrible
2852 [20:21:35] <de-facto> dang that really looks like i would
need more ram for gitlab :/
2853 [20:21:36] <jelly> so 8GB just to keep a basically idle
instance happy
2854 [20:21:53] <de-facto> thats crazy...
2855 [20:22:08] <jelly> our Stash, er, I mean, Bitbucket Server,
which is a java monstrosity, eats less
2856 [20:22:18] <blackflow> jelly: yes. the box label said 2GiB
minimum so we started with a VPS and I discovered that it had a leak
that over time, doing literally nothing (no commits), it would
slowly grow and I had to restart it once a week as it gobbled up the
swap
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2858 [20:22:40] <jelly> blackflow: yes, that's precisely the
thing swap is useful for
2859 [20:22:43] * jelly cries
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2861 [20:23:23] <blackflow> jelly: that's why I keep it
around, but it's not a panacea, in cases like this it'd
eventually overflow no matter the size, unless you address the leak
2862 [20:23:43] * jelly has cron job oneliners that restart a service if
swap usage rises above a watermark
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2865 [20:24:29] <jelly> 55 7 * * * if ! awk '/^\//{if($4 >
2000000){st=1}}END{exit st}' /proc/swaps; then
$OMS_HOME/bin/emctl stop oms; $OMS_HOME/bin/emctl start oms; fi
2866 [20:24:43] <de-facto> btw another question: do i need
BIOSGRUB grub2 core.img partition as first 1 MiB GPT partition?
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2869 [20:25:23] <jelly> de-facto: do you really want to boot via
UEFI and not legacy/
2870 [20:25:58] <jelly> (it might not have to be the very first
partition)
2871 [20:26:09] <de-facto> I am not quite sure, its how it was
setup by the provider (VPN QEMU)
2872 [20:26:16] <de-facto> VPS QEMU
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2874 [20:26:32] <jelly> so kvm, then. Well if it works
2875 [20:26:52] <de-facto> es kvm, so i probably should leave it
with that partiton then?
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2878 [20:27:25] <blackflow> I would. I don't see much use for
EFI in a public VM
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2882 [20:27:58] <jelly> how large is that boot disk? Why do they
even go with uefi at all?
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2885 [20:28:29] <de-facto> 80 GiB boot disk
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2887 [20:28:52] <jelly> so it's not too large for mbr, and
bios boot
2888 [20:29:18] *** Joins: stacks88 (~x@replaced-ip )
2889 [20:29:28] <SerajewelKS> swap is good for absorbing spikes
but isn't good to solve systemic issues
2890 [20:29:29] <stacks88> when installing the os, on a remote
server, the partitions are: /boot, / and swap space.. so /boot is
512mb.. and the most of the space has gone to / -- but my question
is, when the kernel upgrades via apt, where does that go? the
vmlinuz files and such.. does it go in /boot ? or would it count as
going under / ? i set /boot to 25gb just in case
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2893 [20:29:47] <de-facto> nope but for some reason they do their
setup like that, an i guess i should roughly orient my reformat on
their choices (although would like to know their reasoning aswell)
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2897 [20:30:22] <jelly> so leave some 1-2GB swap just for fun, and
monitor changes in swap usage carefully
2898 [20:31:01] <jelly> de-facto: perhaps they just unify their
setup, new windows want uefi, and new linux can do uefi....
2899 [20:31:23] *** Joins: semeion (~semeion@replaced-ip )
2900 [20:31:33] <de-facto> yes that could very well be the case
since they support all those OSes
2901 [20:31:41] <jelly> and gpt is altogether a nicer format
2902 [20:32:01] <greycat> "4 partitions per disk ought to be
enough for anybody"
2903 [20:32:07] <blackflow> stacks88: that's a bit of
overkill for /boot . 512MB should suffice to keep two, three kernels
and initramfs along and updating recycles (autoremove does)
2904 [20:32:18] <jelly> our linux VMs at work have a small .5-1GB
boot disk, and a large one for everything else
2905 [20:32:42] <jelly> this way the large one can be a)
unpartitioned b) resized online with no downtime
2906 [20:33:06] <jelly> that boot disk only stores grub and /boot
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2909 [20:33:41] <SerajewelKS> UEFI is obnoxious when redundant
/boot is required since mirroring the ESP sucks
2910 [20:34:15] *** Quits: soee (~soee@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2911 [20:34:16] <jelly> yeah but one hopes VMs solve storage
redundancy on a lower level by host somehwere
2912 [20:34:32] <SerajewelKS> when working with VMs, yeah
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2918 [20:37:45] *** Quits: L0ki (~Android@replaced-ip ) (Client Quit)
2919 [20:37:51] <blackflow> "3-way redundancy based on
ceph" if you read most of public cloud ingredients labels.
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2921 [20:38:25] <t3st3rV2> <jelly> yeah but one hopes VMs
solve storage redundancy on a lower level by host somehwere <- if
that needed at all. At the end of day, re-rolling VM is fast.
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2925 [20:38:59] * jelly rerolls the data... a critical fumble!
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2927 [20:39:59] <blackflow> roll 1d20 first, save, VMs untouched!
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2938 [20:45:15] <de-facto> hmm, so i formated with GParted livecd
aligning at MiB and GiB, the debian installer shows me now 1.0 MB
for 1 MiB but 75.2 GB for 70 GiB *confused*
2939 [20:45:44] <greycat> 70*2^30
2940 [20:45:45] <greycat> 75161927680
2941 [20:46:01] <greycat> 70GiB =~ 75.2GB as advertised
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2950 [20:49:53] <de-facto> yeah so it seems to show base10
"75.2 GB" but why does it show "1.0 MB" for
1*2^20 bytes? probably rounding so first decimal is identical e.g
1.0 MB ~ 1 MiB
2951 [20:50:14] <greycat> because 1048576 rounds to 1.0
2952 [20:50:36] <greycat> when given to a printf %.1f or whatever
the installer is using
2953 [20:50:40] <de-facto> yeah
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2962 [20:56:55] <de-facto> I just wish the text based installer
would use MiB and GiB, next time I will try to feed it with those
strings maybe it interprets it correctly...
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3021 [21:26:25] <de-facto> lol why can i "su root" on
VNC console when it would not work after login via primary user on
SSH?
3022 [21:26:39] <de-facto> "su: Authentication failure"
3023 [21:26:51] <SerajewelKS> de-facto: "authentication
failure" means the password is incorrect
3024 [21:27:15] <de-facto> yes i copy pasted it on both with
xdotool
3025 [21:27:54] <SerajewelKS> something else must be going wrong,
some unprintable characters being pasted or something
3026 [21:28:03] <de-facto> ooh keymaps probably :/
3027 [21:28:06] <de-facto> dang
3028 [21:28:17] <SerajewelKS> that was going to be my next
question -- you use dvorak? :)
3029 [21:29:01] *** Quits: noodlepie (~Phillip@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
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3033 [21:30:40] *** Joins: mnj (~mnj@replaced-ip )
3034 [21:30:57] <de-facto> LOL yeah z<->y were replaced,
waaaah
3035 [21:31:34] *** Quits: Nh3xus (~Nh3xus@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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3038 [21:33:03] <forgon> I try to locate a patch for an old
version of warzone2100 which fixed compilation with openssl-1.1.
3039 [21:33:28] <forgon> I assume it exists because it is listed
at
replaced-url
3040 [21:33:52] <forgon> Could someone give me a pointer?
Disclaimer: I do not use Debian, I'm an Arch user who wants a
3041 [21:34:10] <forgon> convenient solution to his problem.
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3051 [21:41:44] <aldcor> hi. I am absolute linux noob. Trying to
get myself as a sudo user since i am not by default (why i am not in
a first place?)
3052 [21:42:11] <aldcor> i added %sudo ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL in
suoders and suoders.d file but nothing changed
3053 [21:42:40] *** Joins: towo` (~towo@replaced-ip )
3054 [21:42:52] <n4dir> to answer the question in parenthesis:
because during installation you gave a root password.
3055 [21:43:20] <n4dir> the other problem: might be you will have
to add yourself to the sudoers group.
3056 [21:43:20] *** Quits: AndrejSPB (~textual@replaced-ip ) (Quit: AndrejSPB)
3057 [21:43:39] <rwp> "%sudo ALL=(ALL:ALL) ALL" would
have been the default. If you needed to add it then something was
wrong with the sudo installation.
3058 [21:43:52] <greycat> aldcor: install sudo, and add your user
to the sudo group in /etc/group (or using the adduser command).
Don't modify sudoers.
3059 [21:44:13] *** Quits: PinkBellyNagger (~PinkBelly@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3060 [21:44:23] <rwp> +1 do not modify /etc/sudoers, or forever
afterward you will need to make merging changes upon every sudo
upgrade.
3061 [21:44:25] <greycat> Remember that you need to login again to
pick up new groups.
3062 [21:44:34] *** Joins: izh_ (~denis@replaced-ip )
3063 [21:44:36] <friendofafriend> As root: usermod -aG sudo aldcor
3064 [21:44:38] *** Quits: Mazhive (~Mazhive@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3065 [21:45:29] <rwp> Debian way, as root: adduser aldcor sudo
3066 [21:45:58] *** Joins: Mazhive (~Mazhive@replaced-ip )
3067 [21:46:27] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
3068 [21:46:52] <jhutchins_wk> Either way works.
3069 [21:48:12] <rwp> Well... I think the group of us have
completely covered making sudo work! :-)
3070 [21:48:26] <aldcor> well here is a wierd thing. It says i am
already a member of sudo. But when i am trying to update it says i
am no on suoders file. This incident will be reported. (btw thats on
virtualbox)
3071 [21:48:29] *** Joins: __m4ch1n3__ (~m4ch1n3@replaced-ip )
3072 [21:48:35] *** Joins: smokals (~smokals@replaced-ip )
3073 [21:49:11] <rwp> The /etc/sudoers file must be mode 0440 or
it will be ignored. Is it?
3074 [21:49:19] <rwp> What does this say to you? sudo -l
3075 [21:49:44] *** Joins: buriz (~tud3@replaced-ip )
3076 [21:49:51] <greycat> aldcor: did you logout and back in? What
does "id" with no arguments say?
3077 [21:50:08] *** Quits: gintonyc (~gintonyc_@replaced-ip ) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
3078 [21:50:20] <rwp> id | grep --color sudo
3079 [21:50:24] *** Joins: m0u (~m0u@replaced-ip )
3080 [21:50:54] <aldcor>
replaced-url
3081 [21:51:01] *** Quits: forgon (3e69ac2c@replaced-ip ) ()
3082 [21:51:15] <__m4ch1n3__> is there a way to manipulate evdev
relativ pointing device sensitivity by axis? like x-axis = 1, y-axis
= 0.5 sensitivity
3083 [21:52:02] *** Joins: spacemanspam (~weechat@replaced-ip )
3084 [21:52:04] <rwp> An image dump? Just pasting the text would
be better. Running sudo as root? You are already root! You run sudo
as your non-root user.
3085 [21:52:08] *** Quits: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
3086 [21:52:18] *** Quits: czart (~czart@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
3087 [21:52:30] <aldcor> rwp, that doest work
3088 [21:52:30] *** Quits: xcm (~xcm@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 244 seconds)
3089 [21:52:32] <__m4ch1n3__> sudo^2
3090 [21:52:37] *** Quits: cryptodan (~cryptodan@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
3091 [21:52:38] <aldcor> i t says i am not in suoders file
3092 [21:53:00] <towo`> aldcor, am member of the group sudo != you
can use sudo
3093 [21:53:08] <rwp> Of course root *can* run sudo. But then it
would be root's password not your non-root password.
3094 [21:53:09] <towo`> aldcor, man sudoers
3095 [21:53:34] *** Joins: gintonyc (~gintonyc_@replaced-ip )
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3098 [21:54:20] <greycat> aldcor: what does "id" say
when you run it as your regular user after you log out and back in,
to pick up the new group membership that you added?
3099 [21:54:27] *** Quits: jannic (~jan@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
3100 [21:55:03] <aldcor> hey it worked! i guess i just had to log
out and back!
3101 [21:55:17] <aldcor> i guess that adduser command worked
3102 [21:55:36] <aldcor> probably worked before i even entered a
chat
3103 [21:55:54] <rwp> Yes.
3104 [21:55:56] <friendofafriend> Yep, always have to logout and
in for a group change to take. Glad it worked, aldcor.
3105 [21:56:00] *** Joins: xcm (~xcm@replaced-ip )
3106 [21:56:39] <aldcor> thanks ! awesome community you got there
guys ;)
3107 [21:57:00] *** Quits: ae-35 (~ae-35@replaced-ip ) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
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3109 [21:57:16] <friendofafriend> Always welcome, aldcor.
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3119 [22:01:24] <__m4ch1n3__> is there a way to change sensitivity
by x/y axis for a mouse?
3120 [22:01:29] *** Quits: flacmy (~flac@replaced-ip ) (Quit: Leaving)
3121 [22:02:09] <__m4ch1n3__> e.g up & down moe sensitive then
left right
3122 [22:02:14] <__m4ch1n3__> *more
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3142 [22:17:36] <Deihmos> Just did a Debian install and notice
there is no swap partition?
3143 [22:18:12] <greycat> You get to decide how it's
partitioned during the installation.
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3148 [22:22:56] <__m4ch1n3__> you could use a swap file
3149 [22:22:58] <rwp> If you did not create a swap partition
during install then consider creating a swap file in the file
system.
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3151 [22:23:20] <__m4ch1n3__> filesystem inside imagefile
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3154 [22:24:35] <greycat> If the installation is only minutes old,
you may also consider reinstalling. Maybe use LVM instead of raw
partitions.
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3179 [22:37:56] <phogg> when did Debian start putting a version
number in to /etc/debian_version?
3180 [22:38:15] *** Joins: PoaB (~Thunderbi@replaced-ip )
3181 [22:38:38] <greycat> Decades ago at the very least.
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3189 [22:43:49] <edi_> hi , so I was having troubles with
auto-updates ( I use ansible, which uses an "apt" wrapper
). Lately automatic updates started failing cause apt would hang and
ansible connection closed, causing an unintended lock on apt cache..
3190 [22:44:13] <edi_> so last week a friend recommended the
unattended-upgrades package
3191 [22:44:17] <edi_> which also uses apt
3192 [22:44:34] <edi_> it cause (from the looks of it using top) a
similar hang
3193 [22:44:50] <edi_> so I wonder what the ** is wrong with apt
(or the way I configure it?..)
3194 [22:45:02] <edi_> must mention that my debian jessie boxes do
not have this issue with apt
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3196 [22:45:10] <edi_> it's only on stretch boxes
3197 [22:45:17] <edi_> stable releases, all of'm
3198 [22:45:41] <edi_> i wonder this is something that's
already known out there?
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3206 [22:49:59] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: An obvious diagnostic step is
to run the update manually and see why it's hanging. Probably
looking for human input.
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3210 [22:52:37] <edi_> jhutchins_wk: updates always work when
performed manually
3211 [22:52:45] <edi_> it's not the problem with the updates
themselves
3212 [22:53:10] <edi_> ansible is designed to not need human input
3213 [22:53:21] <edi_> :)
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3217 [22:55:47] <jhutchins_wk> I know, we manage about 1500
servers with it.
3218 [22:56:33] <jhutchins_wk> I haven't used it with apt
though. I still suspect it's something like showing a config
file diff or some other step that requires input.
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3220 [22:57:20] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: That or you have space
problems or DB corruption.
3221 [22:57:43] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: We have seen that yum seems
to want a lot more space when we run it from Ansible.
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3224 [22:58:39] <edi_> the update script worked for 2 years
straight, never complained
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3226 [22:58:45] <edi_> then it started hanging
3227 [22:59:00] <edi_> first i was suspecting broken ssh
connections
3228 [22:59:26] <edi_> because of a lack of bandwith or smth, but
checked every nic, every route, fixed everything necessary along the
way
3229 [22:59:40] <edi_> all the boxes are healthy
3230 [22:59:54] <edi_> and it only appears with stretch version so
far
3231 [22:59:56] <jhutchins_wk> edi_: You're going to have to
get more info on where it's hanging to figure out why.
3232 [23:00:11] <edi_> and like I said , when you run apt upgrade
manually, there's no problem
3233 [23:00:19] <edi_> also apt -y upgrade, no worries there
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3236 [23:00:56] <edi_> the error ansible returns, is that the ssh
connection is lost
3237 [23:01:13] *** Joins: DirkS (~DirkS@replaced-ip )
3238 [23:01:13] <SerajewelKS> have it run with "script
upgrade.log"
3239 [23:01:18] *** Joins: mavhc (~mavhc@replaced-ip )
3240 [23:01:27] <SerajewelKS> then post upgrade.log somewhere so
we can see where it falls apart
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3242 [23:01:39] <edi_> SerajewelKS, thanks for the tip
3243 [23:01:43] <edi_> i logged some stuff
3244 [23:01:47] <edi_> let's see what I can dig up
3245 [23:01:48] <SerajewelKS> (script -c your-upgrade-command.sh
upgrade.log)
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3255 [23:08:03] <edi_> oke, I have this, what ansible reports when
the apt thing fails:
3256 [23:08:05] <edi_> module_stdout": "\r\n\r\nSession
terminated, terminating shell... ...terminated.\r\n",
"msg": "MODULE FAILURE\nSee stdout/stderr for the
exact error
3257 [23:08:20] *** Joins: platvoeten (~platvoete@replaced-ip )
3258 [23:08:31] <edi_> so yea, should log output on the client,
which I didn't...
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3261 [23:10:03] <edi_> now I think about it
3262 [23:10:14] *** Quits: gintonyc (~gintonyc_@replaced-ip ) (Remote host closed the connection)
3263 [23:10:16] <edi_> can it be that something is wrong with my
python installation
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3269 [23:12:25] <Epakai> what would cause my display (dpms i
guess) to not stay off when i do 'xset dpms force off' or
have xscreensaver turn it off? it comes back on after a couple
seconds
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3290 [23:21:10] <tytan> anyone using rxvt-unicode? I can't
set a font in Debian 9.7 x86_64 :/
3291 [23:21:30] <greycat> Why can't you?
3292 [23:21:34] *** Joins: ebarch (~ebarch@replaced-ip )
3293 [23:21:42] <tytan> I set one and it has no affect
3294 [23:22:08] <greycat> wooledg:~$ grep rxvt .xsession
3295 [23:22:08] <greycat> rxvt -font 7x13 -geometry +0+0 &
3296 [23:22:08] <greycat> rxvt -font 7x13 -geometry 80x45+0+360
&
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3298 [23:22:16] <greycat> (and many more)
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3300 [23:23:11] <tytan> I can't follow
3301 [23:23:21] <tytan> I tried to use a monospace font at 16pt
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3303 [23:23:52] <greycat> Is your question "what is the name
of a 16 point font I can use"?
3304 [23:23:54] *** Joins: jfoy (~jfoy@replaced-ip )
3305 [23:24:09] <greycat> wooledg:~$ xlsfonts | grep x16
3306 [23:24:09] <greycat> 8x16
3307 [23:24:11] <greycat> (and 2 more)
3308 [23:24:12] *** Joins: GenTooMan (~cyberman@replaced-ip )
3309 [23:24:17] <tytan> not really, I got all my information from
the arch wiki page on rxvt-unicode but it doesn't work for the
font
3310 [23:24:29] <greycat> so if you type "rxvt -font
8x16", does it work?
3311 [23:24:49] <tytan> let me check
3312 [23:25:16] <tytan> I'm on xfce4-terminal atm out of
frustration
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3314 [23:25:30] <Epakai> VLC on an unfocused workspace was
preventing the monitor from staying off
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3326 [23:32:25] <tytan> greycat yes that works
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3330 [23:33:57] <tytan> greycat sorry, my internet connection is
kinda bad. did I miss your answer?
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do nothin' 'cause I'm cute and furry)
3333 [23:34:23] <tobiasBora> Hello,
3334 [23:34:30] <tytan> o/
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3339 [23:36:31] <tobiasBora> Do you know if it's possible to
use XKB with a "partial" modification? I'd like to
change the behaviour of Ctrl+numpad to act as down/up arrows, but I
don't want to configure also the alphabetic part of the
keybord, the system one is good
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context: nick names on moving displays as market values
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